If I wasn't doing the Tough Mudder I would definitely come on over. The numbers you're making are incredible! I love that Katie chimed in and said you aren't allowed to sell Mindy! That's when you know you married the right girl ahahaha!
I'm curious what you will trap in the 1/4? My guess is you would have to be in the 140's easily right?
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
I didn't appropriately answer your question the first time around - sorry about that.
RL not installed yet as I wasn't about to modify my harness before it was fully tuned.
I currently run 315/30/17's Toyo 888's on the rear. At the 150KPA boost setting, I get a bit of slip in 2nd and full hook in 3rd.
Awesome ///Monster lol. Looks like a blast to drive
Not sure if I misses this info along the way. Is there an ethanol sensor incorporated into the build/tune?
That may be a bit naive. If there isn't a ethanol analyzer in the fuel system, I don't know how Jordan could possibly tune for that case. If Jordan is relying upon the knock sensor to figure and sort out a problem, that may prove to be a problem with that is bypassed for the race logic (I am not 100% sure on that detail with obd2).
With the extreme difference in BTU's, things will really lean out if tuned for a true e70, and you find a pump that pumps e85 or 90 on accident. Many cars have lost motors because of this. When Flexer tuned my flex fuel setup, every time we diluted the 91 octane more and more, and thus increased the content of ethanol, it needed to be dialed in more. It is a linear multiplier for the gradation of e85/e0. But that multiplier had was tuned, and dialed in. Flexer and I discussed this together, and he said there are a few tests you can do on the e85, or I imagine you could install a content analyzer in the fuel system. ($100 for a used GM sensor, and $200 for a anaylizer).
With all you have invested, it would seem very important to monitor the ethanol content of the fuel entering into your motor Jon. If you think about it, there isn't a single OEM dedicated Non Flex Fuel E85 car out there. That being the case, gas stations know they can dilute the e85 how ever they want. What was interesting in talking to Flexer a ton about ethanol, is that there is a ton of knock suppression that happens once you reach around e50, then above that, there is very little gain until you reach very high percentages of ethanol.
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Jordan is sharp kid. He is really on to something here. If he figures out how to do a flex fuel setup through stock DME tuning, he will have achieved greatness. My opinion on it is that its impossible. EVO's aren't able to do it on their stock ecu's and there is a massive market for it and all kinds of crazy hacks have introduced amazing tuning features for the stock evo ecu.
Currently, the only way that Jon can change over to the Ethanol tune is to swap in a different ecu. I love the idea of stock DME tuning. But I'll stick with my AEM 1050 box for now. When true flex fuel is achieved, it will be a home run. I don't know if I would bother with ethanol unless it was on a flex basis. I would just assume spend the big money for race gas and call it a day. Too much risk in my opinion to not know what fuel you are working with, especially when that fuel's BTU content is drastically different.
Last edited by jonesmechanical; 04-16-2013 at 06:08 PM.
1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.
1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.
jordan ran e85 and other terrible mixtures of e60 e70 and the like in his yellow car, the experience that he has had with it may have played roll, but I imagine if he tuned it on the rich side and backed a bit off the timing it would be fine.
Its not that hard to tune the ECU for "E85" winter and summer blends. You tune for the worst case scenario in timing and fuel maps. Studies show the map values dont really need to change that much between the various blends available branded as E85. Also keep in mind how much more tolerant E85 is compared to petrol! The tune wont be gnats nuts for say E70 and E85, but it will still operate just fine even though you are not completely optimised at either end of the spectrum. You are still making WAY more power than you would with petrol even if you are leaving a few % on the table to be safe.
If he decides to start making random mixes of ethanol and petrol, thats where he will be in trouble. The OP does not seem like an idiot by any stretch so I am sure he is well aware of his setup limitations.
There is nothing ground breaking or crazy about this method. No need to get tricky when what is available works just fine.
If I was the owner, I would want to know the risks, and how/if they are avoided. If for only $300 you could keep tabs on what would cost a ton of time and money in damage, I would not hesitate to monitor the ethanol. I doubt that Jordan would say that he found that there was an acceptable way to run one tune on e60-e85. Its not a timing thing, its a fueling thing. If you are dialed in on e60, and then you get a batch of e85, your driving a time bomb. Imagine pulling out 20% of your fuel on a race gas map. I don't care what the timing is, its going to go kaboom. Other communities have experienced this with Ethanol fuels and running dedicated ethanol tunes. The OEM's figured out a solution to the problem of fueling and dealing with the drastic difference in bTU contents. FLEXing of the fueling. Having to run your tank to zero is also a pain in the butt to switch fuels.
1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.
1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.
You could always run this: http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml to verify ethanol content is within the acceptable range.
I also think you are really overcomplicating the fueling difference between winter and summer ethanol blends. Its also fairly easy to test the ethanol content with a hand held tester to verify its within limits.
If you are fueling for ~E85 and you get a tank of E70 you think the engine will have serious problems? Really???
97 M3 - 8.94@164 - 8 sec street machine, all BMW driveline, factory ECU
02 M3 - 9.74@145 - Maximum PSI stage 2 turbo kit, stock motor, factory ECU
16 M3 - 9.3@151 - Built motor/twins
15 M3 - 9.2@162 - Built motor/single turbo/Ecutek
BMW SOB's turbo E30 - 8.72@158.39
follow our latest builds and upcoming events! - facebook.com/maximumpsi - instagram.com/maximumpsi
I think jones may have been referring to e36 platform. Then again maybe nick can tell us of its possible (even if he may not be willing to put the time in to make it happen)
I have no interest in e85 at this point but the prospect of switchable maps with flex sensor would get me interested. Lol
Mike, I knew that you were working on it, but had no idea how Nick was doing this. Obviously, with the way Nick is approaching the ethanol fuel challenge (utilizing a single DME with an analyzer), and how Jordan is approaching it (with separate swappable DME's with no ethanol monitoring) shows a lot in where they are at as far as tuners. I couldn't even comment on how the obd2 DME's differ between the s52 M coupe and the s54 e46M3 and the challenges of each. Maybe the s54 M3 ecu has more options to allow for switching. If Nick is taking the approach of utilizing a content analyzer for e85 tuning, then he is much further along than Jordan is on this subject. I wouldn't touch a ethanol tune without one.
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Ahh. Thanks for the correction/clarification Rukman, I didn't know.
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Yes, for $100 you can have a used gm flex fuel sensor, and for $200 you have that. $300 you have accurate monitoring. Now, what to do with the output of the ziet unit, well thats for Nick and Jordan to figure out. Flexer figured out that the AEM EMS will take its output nicely and allow for fueling modulating.
And yes, since E85 has 33% less energy content than regular gas, you have to flow that much more fuel to maintain a correct or comparable AFR to what you have tuned for Gasoline. In the example of the e85 vs e70 example, it would be the equivalent of pulling 4-5% fueling out of your tune everywhere. Is that a big deal???
1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.
1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.
If you are that worried about making fuel trims to fully optimise your fueling, they have boxes that will increase injector pulse width with increased detected ethanol comtent.
I think you are too focused on completely optimising the tune, which is not what is going on with the method I assume Jordan is using (although maybe he will chime in and correct me).
You are completely missing the point of what I am saying.....What happens if no fuel is removed for E70 if the fueling is mapped for E85? Your engine runs a bit rich. Does it really matter? Does it kill your performance? Is there any real consequense besides consuming a little more fuel?
Last edited by wazzu70; 04-17-2013 at 12:21 AM.
I'm trying to figure out a sig that shows the comparison of 3x the S54 torque to 1x the S52 torque :P I love you bro.
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Thanks again Ruk. Right now it's just sitting all ripped apart in the garage waiting for the cams to come out again. I'm going back in to make sure the headstuds are still properly tight after tuning. I'd much rather waste 4 or 5 hours now to ensure the headgasket doesn't leak.
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Quite honestly, I was expecting we'd get to 700/600. Never to the level of torque we saw.
I can care less about records, etc.
If you want to talk about records, here are a few:
This may be the most powerful M Coupe running a pump fuel (I think George is running race only these days);
This may be the highest powered MS41.1 Stock DME Car;
This may be the highest torque and furthest pushed SPA T3 setup.
I am clearly saying "may be" for a reason. There's no way to verify any of that.
Instead of going for a record, I'm just trying to be happy with what I built. That's the most important thing.
Yes - but your car will also be madness.
Yes, that is a smart choice. I am very glad that I chose to go see Jordan. Hopefully we can get him enough business so he can afford a phone that doesn't drop calls all the time (I hope you read this buddy!).
+1 on Ruckman mentioning the misfire dection needs to be turned off not the knock control.
Jonathan's ecu is already set that way. Knock control is still on.
E85 (e85-70) is a lot less prone to rich misfire then gasoline.
He was tuned on true summer blend e85 so if he ends up with a rating more towards the e68 range his car will be slightly richer. Also his ignition timing is backed down quite a few degrees off of a aggressive e85 tune so no worries of det with various fuels.
A true flex fuel option is very nice to have but other dme tuners have been using these methods for a while and if done correctly their will be zero issues.
Also if he is crossing from e85 to 93 and his tank is almost empty he can swich over to the 93 map and give the car a few min to adjust short term fuel trims and be off! No getting into boost intill the second round of filling up gas.
With the multune dme being shipped out tomorow or Thursday their will be
1 tune for 93 octane and 115lb injectors.
1 tune for e85 and 115lb injectors (will run slightly richer with e70)
1 valet mode.
1 slot still open.
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=( I love my huge Galaxy Note 2. I do hate that I get a ton of dropped and missed calls though =(. Im on my fourth one
RK tunes
How is the idle on 93 with the large injectors?
97 M3 - 8.94@164 - 8 sec street machine, all BMW driveline, factory ECU
02 M3 - 9.74@145 - Maximum PSI stage 2 turbo kit, stock motor, factory ECU
16 M3 - 9.3@151 - Built motor/twins
15 M3 - 9.2@162 - Built motor/single turbo/Ecutek
BMW SOB's turbo E30 - 8.72@158.39
follow our latest builds and upcoming events! - facebook.com/maximumpsi - instagram.com/maximumpsi
A little off topic here, but Happy Birthday Jordan .
Hi 5
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell
If it was only that simple, once one has already figured it out. JR has a long standing relationship with engineers at AEM. He is always coming up with crazy ideas, and even tests new products for them. There was multiple people at AEM that said it wasn't possible to do a flex fuel setup on their EMS. This was at the time that PRO EFI was one of the first to really push the whole flex fuel thing. The second the Zeit unit came on the market, JR asked Zeit if they developed it for something like the AEM, and they said no, but it would may work. I haven't seen anyone else anywhere run this simple flex fuel setup on AEM EMS units. It seems very simple, but he on his own figured it out, and it works marvelously. There may be countless others that have done the same, and its a great idea, we just haven't seen any of them.
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Nice Jordan, so this whole swapping ECU's that Jon is doing right now is just until this multi tune ecu makes it to him? Very nice.
1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.
1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.
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