M62TUB44 - time for new timing chain guides?

[RPD]

Hello,

New user here. I’ve been lurking around for a while, and the time to post has come... Was replacing a leaky oil pan gasket in my June 2000 E39 540i with 142,000 miles on it and found this piece of plastic (photos). Further investigation revealed that it most likely came from one of the ends of the u-shaped timing chain guide. There were no metal shavings, other plastic pieces, or any other debris/sediment in the oil pan (or the oil filter).

So, I just wanted to check and confirm my thinking, is this piece alone an unambiguous indicator that the chain guides need to be replaced? I’ve read (including on this forum) that these can last 200k+ miles with consistent oil changes (which this car has had, and I was hoping they’d last longer), but it looks like age is killing the guides before mileage did. Although I’m not seeing any more plastic or metal shavings, the plastic on the guides is most likely brittle and could fail at any time. Am I reading this correctly?

Another indicator that the chain and guides may need to be replaced is a distinct clucking noise that appears when idling after the engine warms up (video). Does this sound like a chain/chain guide issue? I’ve replaced the tensioner with an OE one, and while that reduced the startup rattle (albeit inconsistently, often there's no rattle on cold starts, sometimes there is), it hasn’t done anything for the clucking noise once the engine is properly warmed up. That made me think (after more reading) that the clucking indicates issues with the chain/guides.

So, I just want to confirm I’m interpreting this correctly and that the big job most certainly needs to be done. If that is the case, how safe is it to keep driving the car in this condition? Thanks!

[JimLev]

Welcome to the forum RPD.
The plastic guides get very brittle and start breaking generally sometime after 100K miles, some last much longer.
If a piece has already broken off then your chain guides are living on borrowed time.
The knocking you hear is from the worn out vanos that need to be rebuilt. I’ve been rebuilding them for about 11 years now.
If you need more info let me know.

[R Shaffner]

It's hard to know how much time/use you have before the guides fail enough to risk damage to other things. In my experience with two sets of failed guides, there were many more pieces in the pan than what's in your pic. That suggests your guides are just starting to fail.

However, when the guide piece in the center U section breaks, the chain will tend to pull those pieces up out of the metal channel and they can hang there before breaking off. That means some bigger pieces might be about to drop. And worse, it means that complete failure of the center U section can happen suddenly as pieces get pulled out of place (and not just worn down where they are).

If you keep driving it the worst thing that can happen is the center U section breaks so badly the chain will lose tension, jump a tooth or more on the crank and bend some valves. Second worse is the chain slap on metal will cause an awful racket, meaning the engine should be shut down immediately and the car towed.

So... there are risks in driving it. If it were mine, I'd prob feel OK driving it a bit more, gently and close to home. But I'd be gathering the parts and planning for the big job.

[RPD]

Thank you both. That confirms my thoughts, and although the news is not good, i was preparing myself for it.
Yes, Jim, I would definitely appreciate any guidance you can offer on VAONS rebuilding (I am sooo looking forward to getting rid of that clucking noise) as well as other things that need to be done. I see people creating separate threads where they share the whole process step by step and get feedback, and I think I might do the same as i have not done anything that complex with a car engine (did take a motorcycle engine apart as a teenager though!).

For now, could you help me figure out what parts I need (and special tools) to see what the whole job might cost? From what I've read, if you are taking the timing chain covers off, it is recommended to do other things along the way, including vanos chains and tensioners, valley pan (mine was done by a bmw dealer in 2009 at 70,000 miles, no leaks yet but its been 16 years and 70,000 miles since then, should i replace it?) and valve cover gaskets (mine have been leaking for a while). Is there anything else I am missing?

I found this original compressive timing chain kit on FCPEuro that seems to have everything I would need. Does this have all i need? does it have any parts i most likely will not need? Most parts are original and a few are OE, does it make sense to look for OE version of each part to save a few $?

As far as i understand, this kit, however, does not include any parts (or tools) for vanos rebuilding, is there a high quality kit folks usually use? I watched the 50skid video on vanos rebuilding, it looks like you also need a press, a vice and a set of picks (which are the only 'special' tools i already have for the job).

On the special tools beyond regular wrenches, from what i've read, I'll need a long breaker bar for the "jesus bolt" (along with a tool that measures angels for tightening the bolt, whatever that's called, like here), and a timing tool. most recommend German Auto Solutions, which some say can be rented instead of buying? I do have a Pittsburgh torque wrench (will need to get a small one in in-lb probably too for smaller bolts). is there anything else I will need for tools?

Thank you!

[JimLev]

If you’re going to do your own vanos seals you may want to get a spare teflon seal and the picks Beisan sells.
You also need to make sure the plastic part (it’s a 2 piece holder) that the o-rings fit into doesn’t have any cracks in it. If it does it’s not replaceable. You’ll need a new (used) vanos. You also need to make sure the inner part can rotate 20º, that’s what those red marls are for.
The timing kit parts have more that you really need. When I did mine I think I spent about $750, but that was a while ago.
Here is the pics of the ones I did last week, as they came in and as they were shipped back.

IMG_4113.jpg

IMG_4115.jpg

[JimLev]

Some parts you don’t need.

IMG_4118.jpeg

IMG_4119.jpeg

[R Shaffner]

I left the intake manifold and valley pan on when I did the guides. (Not really related to the timing gear.)

I've had a couple of water pumps suddenly fail without warning. (No noise or dripping in advance -- just suddenly locking up, shredding the belt and leaving me stranded.) So I replace the pump anytime I remove it.

You'll need a crank pin for locking it a TDC. But that pin is NOT strong enough to hold the crank when you remove the Jesus bolt. So you will need to make or buy a tool to hold the crank for that purpose. (The crank doesn't have to be at TDC when you loosen the Jesus bolt. So the process is to (1) attach the bracket, (2) loosen the bolt, (3) remove the bracket (4) turn the crank forward to TDC, (5) put the crank pin in, and then (6) remove the loosened Jesus bolt.)

I didn't buy a new chain. Think I measured the length and examined it first.

[R Shaffner]

If you do pull the intake, then yes replce the CCV and gasket, and when you do use stainless hex head bolts for the CCV instead of the Allen bolts. (In case you ever need to mess with it while the intake is on.)

Often best to replace the radiator hoses too, unless they've been done recently.

[R Shaffner]

Also, many of us here have been using (and liking) a cooler 88C non-MAP thermostat. I'd recommend it, except I just installed this one, which seems like it might be even cooler, which would be better from my perspective.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...3#post31007543

[JimLev]

I have a drawing of the crank holder I used. I can post it when I get back home in a few days.

[JimLev]

My crank holder.
You could make one using a 2" x 2" piece of angle iron. It doesn't need to circle the complete hub.


CrankHolder.JPG

CrankHolder_1.JPG

CrankHolder_2.JPG

[RPD]

Thank you both again! Life happened and had to take a break from the car, but now I am back and, after saving on food, ready to order the parts.

VANOS: I’ve been reading about rebuilding them and I think I would rather a professional do it for me (assuming I can afford it, of course . I am going to send you a dm to inquire about this.

On the parts to order: thanks Jim, I’ll skip the intake manifold “hose” (11611742826). I am still contemplating whether to get new chain tensioners (part # 11311435027, 11311435026). I’ve read they can we out, but how likely is that to be the case at 140,000 miles? Also, I am having hard time finding all the replacement pads, both FCP and ESC seem to have only the upper pad (11311435028), but no lower pads and no distinction between bank 1 and 2. Are all 4 pads interchangeable?

Also, are OE seals and chains from Elring, Corteco and iwis just the same as bmw? I figured I could save about $500 on that entire kit with BMW chain guides but OE Elring and Corteco seals and some IWIS chains. Eg BMW crankshaft seal is $94.99, while OE Corteco made in Italy is only $9.78, BMW timing cover gasket set for $59.99 vs Elring for $15.69. am I correct to think that OE from Elring and Corteco are identical to BMW parts regardless of where they were made (most OE come from Germany, but some from Poland or Italy)?

On the valley pan, good to know that I don’t have to touch the intake manifold. I wonder though whether you guys think it’s still worth doing given that it’s been 15 years and 70,000 miles since it was done? Are they prone to leaks after a while? I’ll probably buy the parts now (including CCV 11617501563) and wait until it leaks or feel like doing it, but will probably not to do all at the same time to not overwhelm myself.
Thermostat: thank you, R Shaffner. I’ve read about 90c thermostats a while ago, but never got to replacing it. is this thermostat by bremmen parts (mfg part 11531436386) from ESC tunning that you all use?

Crankshaft holder: thank you Jim for the pictures. This looks far more complicated than I expected. I was indeed thinking about using an angle iron, putting a tiny bit of grease on the bolts where it’s supposed to be attached, touching the bolts with a piece of cardboard and use that as a template for drilling holes in the iron angle. Is this too naive? )

Thanks a lot for your help!

[dtw]

It is perfectly ok to skip the valley pan job while doing the timing/VANOS job. Oddly, there are not any significant efficiencies/overlap between the two jobs. Also, removing the intake won't make anything about the timing job any easier.

That being said, I just paid the price for not doing the valley pan job when I overhauled my engine before putting it into my 540i manual conversion project car a few short years ago. It was the one job that I did not do. Recently started getting a whiff of coolant smell after getting out of the car, despite seeing no drips. Sure enough, it was the valley pan so I have been finishing up that job.

Suggested 'while you are in there' jobs when doing the valley pan:
-knock sensors (be sure to use a torque wrench whenever installing these)
-vent pipe under manifold between CCV and oil separator (I discovered a massive leak on mine, it was responsible for the oil drips on my floor)
-gaskets on intake manifold - front and rear seals, throttle body to manifold seals, and manifold to heads
-coolant bridge gaskets (rear of heads) (pain in the butt to do in-car, but mirror-on-a-stick is really helpful)
-water pipe o-rings front and rear
-CCV on back of manifold
-vacuum plug on back of CCV
-ultrasonic cleaning for injectors, replace o-rings & pintle caps
-fuel hose between body and injection rail
-check & replace various vacuum-related bits that are plumbed on top of manifold

Not 100% of these are necessary. If you are on a budget, these add up pretty quickly.

[JimLev]

The cam to cam pads for the short chains are the same.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...UaAvM2EALw_wcB

You don’t need to replace 11311435026/27. They can be pulled apart to clean up the inside. Just put the new pads on them.

I did my guides at 130K, bought a new long chains which at the time was $100. My old chain looked fine and wasn’t stretched at all, both new and old were exactly the same length. I reused both of the short cam to cam chains.

Yes, get a long piece of angle iron, drill a few holes in it so you can bolt it to the crank flange after you remove the harmonic balancer.
If you don’t have any knock sensors codes I wouldn’t touch them, mine are original with 177K on them.

More later, got to get the other car ready for our local 4th of July parade.

[JimLev]

When you remove the lower timing cover push all the bolts thru a piece of cardboard. There are a few different sizes and lengths.
A few pics of the cam to cam tensioners.

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DSCN1062.JPG

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[RPD]

It is perfectly ok to skip the valley pan job while doing the timing/VANOS job. Oddly, there are not any significant efficiencies/overlap between the two jobs. Also, removing the intake won't make anything about the timing job any easier.

That being said, I just paid the price for not doing the valley pan job when I overhauled my engine before putting it into my 540i manual conversion project car a few short years ago. It was the one job that I did not do. Recently started getting a whiff of coolant smell after getting out of the car, despite seeing no drips. Sure enough, it was the valley pan so I have been finishing up that job.

Suggested 'while you are in there' jobs when doing the valley pan:
-knock sensors (be sure to use a torque wrench whenever installing these)
-vent pipe under manifold between CCV and oil separator (I discovered a massive leak on mine, it was responsible for the oil drips on my floor)
-gaskets on intake manifold - front and rear seals, throttle body to manifold seals, and manifold to heads
-coolant bridge gaskets (rear of heads) (pain in the butt to do in-car, but mirror-on-a-stick is really helpful)
-water pipe o-rings front and rear
-CCV on back of manifold
-vacuum plug on back of CCV
-ultrasonic cleaning for injectors, replace o-rings & pintle caps
-fuel hose between body and injection rail
-check & replace various vacuum-related bits that are plumbed on top of manifold

Not 100% of these are necessary. If you are on a budget, these add up pretty quickly.

thank you, dtw. i am going to order all the parts in the kit and do the valley pan after i sort out the chain guides to not overwhelm myself. i'll keep the things you mentioned in mind when i get there, it will definitely help. Do you know by any chance how long ago or how many miles it had been since the valley pan was done prior to the leak?

[RPD]

Thank you, Jim, these pictures are gold. I am going to order just the pads. are there are other places where the bolts are different? I think i've read that is the case for the water pump, but i dont have to take it off, as far as i can see in the videos.

[Jason5driver]

Some parts you don’t need.

IMG_4118.jpeg

IMG_4119.jpeg

This made me laugh . lol
And , it does look scary because of the amount of parts too .
There should be a numbered list of parts …

[RPD]

Hi Jason,

Yes, there is a full list with part numbers, please see below. I would be more picky, but i've never done this kind of job and not sure what exactly i need, so im gonna bite the bullet and order the whole kit - except for the parts Jim advised against - assuming that all parts will eventually need to be replaced. if you have any thoughts on what i definitely don't need, i'd love to hear them. i'll order OR elring and corteco seals and iwis chains instead of bmw.

Qty	Part	SKU	Brand	Price
1	Valley Pan Cover	BMW-11141742042		$90.24
20	Bolt	BMW-07119905400		$35.80
1	Valley Pan Cover	BMW-11141736106		$58.89
4	Valley Pan Cover	BMW-13711741097		$9.16
1	Engine Crankshaft Seal	BMW-11141275466		$85.49
1	Engine Timing Cover Gasket Set	BMW-11141436978		$56.99
1	Engine Oil Drain Plug Gasket	BMW-07119963300		$1.69
1	Engine Timing Cover Seal Strip	BMW-11141741127		$9.35
1	Engine Timing Cover Gasket	BMW-11141741128		$9.35
2	Engine Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Solenoid Gasket	BMW-11141435023		$19.72
2	Engine Camshaft Position Sensor O-Ring	VNE-104482		$2.38
1	Engine Valve Cover Gasket	BMW-11120034104		$68.99
1	Engine Valve Cover Gasket	BMW-11120034105		$68.99
6	Engine Valve Cover Grommet	BMW-11121721879		$69.24
1	Engine Timing Chain Guide	BMW-11311741777		$107.99
1	Engine Timing Chain Guide	BMW-11311745406		$100.69
1	Engine Timing Chain Guide	BMW-11311741236		$127.99
1	Engine Timing Chain Tensioner	BMW-11317531813		$110.99
1	Engine Intake Manifold Gasket	BMW-11611729727		$14.72
1	Engine Crankcase Vent Valve Seal	BMW-11611729728		$9.35
4	Engine Intake Manifold Gasket	BMW-11611433328		$70.64
1	Engine Crankcase Breather O-Ring	BMW-11151702291		$9.35
1	Engine Water Pump Gasket	BMW-11511731372		$10.29
2	Engine Block Drain Plug Seal	BMW-07119963225		$1.18
1	Engine Oil Drain Plug Gasket	BMW-07119963151		$1.09
1	Engine Oil Separator	BMW-11151705272		$66.99
1	Engine Oil Separator Hose	BMW-11151705301		$51.99
1	Engine Intake Manifold Hose	BMW-11611742826		$48.19
1	Engine Crankcase Vent Valve	BMW-11617501563		$127.99
1	Engine Timing Chain	BMW-11311741746		$95.99
1	Engine Crankshaft Pulley Bolt	BMW-11231736585		$29.54
1	Engine Timing Chain Tensioner	BMW-11311435027		$112.99
1	Engine Timing Chain Tensioner	BMW-11311435026		$112.99
2	Engine Timing Chain	BMW-11311747437		$91.98
1	Engine Timing Cover Gasket	BMW-11361705578		$9.35
1	Engine Timing Cover Gasket	BMW-11361705579		$9.35
6	Engine Camshaft Seal	BMW-11311705512		$67.20
1	Engine Timing Cover Seal	BMW-11141736758		$7.91
2	Engine Cylinder Head Oil Check Valve	BMW-11121706921		$55.38
1	Engine Oil Pump Chain	BMW-11417576917		$55.99
2	Engine Coolant Pipe O-Ring	OES-11531710055		$1.58
2	Engine Coolant Pipe O-Ring	OES-11531710048		$1.38
16	Engine Valve Cover Grommet	DPH-11121437395		$11.04
1	Washer	OES-N0138272		$1.19

[RPD]

folks, i didn't order this part (the kit included 2 pieces), should i have?

[JimLev]

^_no part specified.