Waterpump may be leaking, again, at shaft seal.

[kezug]

I replaced my original last year, preventative maintenance with a Saleri Water Pump from Bimmerworld.
I also replaced the fan and clutch with Genuine BMW Fan and Mahle/Behr clutch from FCP Euro (I mentioned this for reasons later)

About 2,800 miles later, I developed a leak behind the water pump and it turned out to be a bad shaft seal. You can read more on that in my other thread.
I replaced that W.P. in Sept.

Now, almost 3,000 miles later. I am noticing signs of another potential leak behind the water pump! Its very slow leak but its exhibiting the same spray pattern as above linked thread!

At first, I thought it might be from the upper hose connected at thermostat. That hose was replaced a few weeks ago as it developed a leak at the radiator end. I think I stressed that hose when I removed the fan blade for my transmission drop to fix detent shift pins. I replaced it with same Rein hose from FCP Euro. I still have dye in the coolant and this current leak MIGHT be coming from the upper radiator hose at thermostat. I tightened it a half/turn as it seemed like it could be tightened especially as I have put about 400 miles on the car since doing that.

I cleaned up the upper hose and splatter, then drove about 50 miles, with heat on and a/c on, just so I can get the car to go through all the motions.
I saw the splatter again. Frustrated!

Damn, I am hoping its that I did not clean properly still from the hose leak, but I have doubts and think the water pump is bad/going bad, again.

1) So, is it installation error? The matting surface is clean, coolant on rubber o-ring, I finger tightened the WP nuts, I diagonally tighten them all to snug, then torqued at 7lbs.
I made sure I tightened the clutch to the fan evenly and those are at same torque, which isnt much. Spin the fan on and give it a snug tighten. Nothing crazy.

2) is it possible I should replace the fan and clutch as it might have an issue causing a wobble that is stressing out the W.P. Shaft Seal? (I mean, its twice now). Is the fan, at spin speed supposed to be perfectly straight?

3) is it time for me to chuck that fan (i hate for that to be a solution here as thats not why people chuck it).

[Hoyt Clagwell]

I didn't use a torque wrench when I replaced mine (with a different model) 7 lbs. seems awful low. I know it's aluminum but that seems a tad on the low side to me. Wait until others chime in but you could give those water pump bolts just a little more torque.

I ditched my fan and I never saw it actually running so I don't know how balanced it spins. You could try removing it and seeing if that cures the water pump issue.

[kezug]

I didn't use a torque wrench when I replaced mine (with a different model) 7 lbs. seems awful low. I know it's aluminum but that seems a tad on the low side to me. Wait until others chime in but you could give those water pump bolts just a little more torque.

I ditched my fan and I never saw it actually running so I don't know how balanced it spins. You could try removing it and seeing if that cures the water pump issue.

The big fan between radiator and engine with the viscous clutch always spins. My understanding is that when temp rises and the clutch get warm enough, it engages the clutch and it will spin faster. I am sure I am explaining it not well but it always spins.

[BimmerBreaker]

I would pressure test the system to verify the source of the leak. It sounds to me like it is probably from the upper radiator hose as you suspect.

The water pump should "pop" into position when the o-ring seats into it's groove. It should not be "pushed" into place by tightening the nuts. Because it has a sort of natural resting point, the torque doesn't need to be that high. Tightening it a bit more won't really make a difference if the o-ring isn't seated properly.

[kezug]

I would pressure test the system to verify the source of the leak. It sounds to me like it is probably from the upper radiator hose as you suspect.

The water pump should "pop" into position when the o-ring seats into it's groove. It should not be "pushed" into place by tightening the nuts. Because it has a sort of natural resting point, the torque doesn't need to be that high. Tightening it a bit more won't really make a difference if the o-ring isn't seated properly.

My WP installation went exactly how you described.

You are right, a pressure tester is the way to go. Will do that soon.

[kezug]

I have the pressure tester on and after 1.5 hours, its moved about 1/2 or 1 thickness of a needle to left. I see no leaks from any of the hoses.
However, I do see a leak behind the pulley at the water pump shaft. This is where my last Saleri water pump was leaking. I see it with my scope. I will put up pic and vid later as its pretty cool.

So, this is TWICE now, to have the Saleri WP leak at the shaft.
This is either installer error (which I am willing to accept, but unsure what I would have done, in error, twice) or I think my fan might have some tiny wobble and possible that after 2500 or 3000 miles might just be enough to stress out the shaft seal? Which is damn near the same amount of miles my first Saleri WP failed. (as mentioned above but worth repeating, I also replaced the fan and clutch with Genuine BMW Fan and Mahle/Behr clutch from FCP Euro) I did not replace the pulley wheel. Belt tensioner was replaced too. And new belts.

I attached the clutch to the fan and torqued it evenly at 7 lbs. I dont recall if there was any play in the attachment as it must have been a tight fit without any play just putting in the little bolts. The water pump snugged right into place (I wetted the o-ring with coolant, the finger tightened the nuts, and torqued in diagonal fashion (like lug nuts) to 7 lbs (using my in lb torque).

I am going to do the following:
- I will mark spots on tips of fan, edges of clutch on the fan, the pulley so that I can see those marks in rotation by hand and with car on. Perhaps that will showcase some wobble and pinpoint where it may be.
- I will likely contact BimmerWorld to see if by chance Saleri had some issue with a batch or so of water pumps (likely not but should start the conversation and let them know I am troubleshooting things)
----should I be looking at a different water pump?

I know many of you may tell me to just delete the fan. I may opt to NOT install the replacement when I get the new waterpump but then that means I have to deal with the temp switch install too...which I am not sure I want to mess with that on the radiator as the current switch works and no leaks. I fret having to unscrew and screw things onto the plastic bits.

The above will help me make a case or help decision that indicates to replace the pulley/fan/clutch (any or just all) as well as the waterpump and do this install all over again.

Any other suggestions?

[Hoyt Clagwell]

It seems that the Saleri water pump may have issues according to the reviews on FCP EURO.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...509985#reviews

It also seems to me that if your fan had enough wobble to kill the seal, you would feel it, hear it, or otherwise notice it. Just speculation on my part. Could you run your engine long enough to get the fan to engage so that you could observe it?

I replaced mine with a rebuilt unit. AIR, it was a German brand (maybe URO?) and had a cast aluminum impeller. It was very cheap, about 30 bucks as I recall. I was advised against it by this panel but it's still working fine after 70k kms (about 45k miles)

Note: I forgot that the pump uses an O-ring seal rather than a gasket type seal. It's been a while since I replaced mine. I might have gotten it confused with the thermostat housing. Tightening the bolts will have no effect on the O-ring's ability to seal as BB pointed out. I used undiluted coolant as a lube to install it.

[kezug]

It seems that the Saleri water pump may have issues according to the reviews on FCP EURO.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...509985#reviews

It also seems to me that if your fan had enough wobble to kill the seal, you would feel it, hear it, or otherwise notice it. Just speculation on my part. Could you run your engine long enough to get the fan to engage so that you could observe it?

I replaced mine with a rebuilt unit. AIR, it was a German brand (maybe URO?) and had a cast aluminum impeller. It was very cheap, about 30 bucks as I recall. I was advised against it by this panel but it's still working fine after 70k kms (about 45k miles)

Note: I forgot that the pump uses an O-ring seal rather than a gasket type seal. It's been a while since I replaced mine. I might have gotten it confused with the thermostat housing. Tightening the bolts will have no effect on the O-ring's ability to seal as BB pointed out. I used undiluted coolant as a lube to install it.

Actually that linked Saleri does not fit an early built 1998. I purchased that one but its weep hole hits the flywheel. Ask me how I know . The Saleri from Bimmerworld does fit. Slightly different model number.

I will post up vid of my very slight "wobble"

But I have never observed it when the clutch locked in. Only turn by hand when car is off and when spinning but not locked whe. Car syarted. I will be sure to check that.

[kezug]

Here is a picture and a couple of videos to show where the leak is from:

The arrow shows the path which starts at the arrow tipi (which is just below the shaft, behind the pulley) and travels down to the outer ridge bottom (which is the bigger blob at top of pic)
Taken from my borescope.


Here is a video from the borescope in case anyone is curious.
https://youtu.be/uKY4FuqDLJg


Ok, now on to potential reasons for this (as this is my 2nd Saleri WP) doing this same area leak:
This leak, on 1st showed up about 3000-3500 miles. This one at 2200 miles!)
I also have a new Genuine Fan and Mahle/Behr clutch that I installed with my 1st Saleri WP.

1) installer error (willing to accept this but geez, I would need to know what)
2) the Saleri WP - from Bimmerworld for my early build 98 is 11517527799.Saleri PA659EU perhaps have a bad batch? I do see that PA659S from FCP has some reviews saying the Shafts are bad but not exactly as mine is and not same exact part. But suspicion is high.
3) Is my fan too wobbly? NOTE: I do not feel any movement by hand on the pulley or stem of Water pump. Its solidly in tact in situ.


Wobbly?
If you have your fan on, can you please observe how yours spins with car on? Do you see it perfectly straight or do you see a slight wobble (similar to mine)?
My wobble is like 2 mm, i mean its slight.

This video shows that 3 blades hit the wire a little harder than the other blades. From this it also seems they all hit nearly similar spot on tip of blade. I wetted the end of that wire with yellow marker, which then placed the marking on the tip of blade.
The blue tape was removed and is NOT on for the videos below.
https://youtu.be/36vMLV6JtKg

Here are 2 videos as speed.
https://youtube.com/shorts/YfSf3ORSfB8?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/JYWNSw0nChQ?feature=share


I am kind of at a loss at the moment, need some help here, so I can determine next steps. As I am not sure if I should get a different WP brand (if so, what?), get a replacement, but then also replace Fan, clutch and even pulley...do it all? (too many changes though?)
If the "wobble" I show above is not a factor of cause (if others say theirs is similarly "wobbling", then I think I will simply go Geniune BMW from https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...=c&SVSVSI=0499

[kezug]

Hoping someone with an clutch fan installed, preferably a 2.8, can review the video's of my fan above and then observe yours. I am curious if what I see is common or a potential issue.

[solimans]

mine has a slight (few mm) wobble.

but the fan is not on the pump. right? im not sure what one has to do with the other. forgive me if i'm missing it. i skimmed through today

I'd go genuine on the water pump. Or at least OE, not OEM

[kezug]

mine has a slight (few mm) wobble.

but the fan is not on the pump. right? im not sure what one has to do with the other. forgive me if i'm missing it. i skimmed through today

I'd go genuine on the water pump. Or at least OE, not OEM

Yes, the clutch (fan coupling, part #2 11527505302) is attached to the water pump. My video above shows the fan and its every so slight "wobble" (part#1 11521712058) -- I am not talking about the electric fan that sits in front of the radiator.
RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog

I am not sure I see any OE's to choose from, so I might just pay the rightful amount for Genuine BMW. I dont mind that. Just trying to figure out this fan and if its possible its contributing to the issue.

[solimans]

yes, brain fart.

mine wobbles a bit.

dollars to donuts if you get OE it will not leak

be sure to use rubber assembly lube when you go to put it on

[kezug]

yes, brain fart.

mine wobbles a bit.

dollars to donuts if you get OE it will not leak

be sure to use rubber assembly lube when you go to put it on

"rubber assembly lube"? Where? I have always read that the rubber o-ring should be wetted with coolant is all thats needed.

"dollars to donuts if you get OE it will not leak" thinking the same!

[IndianaRoadster]

"dollars to donuts if you get OE it will not leak" thinking the same!

+1

[solimans]

"rubber assembly lube"? Where? I have always read that the rubber o-ring should be wetted with coolant is all thats needed.

on the o-ring and mating surfaces. can you use water, yes. will it be ok, probably.

Check out a product called "P-80 Emulsion". makes the rubber bits slide right in. then it dries like it was never there

[kezug]

So, I am on the hunt for the OE or Genuine BMW and I am not finding much out there. I do see that Pelican Parts has what appears to be a Genuine BMW Waterpump but unsure if that is with the plastic impeller or the composite upgrade.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...=c&SVSVSI=0499

ECS Tuning has one but its a remanufactured one: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...g/11517527799/

I am definitely not going with Saleri again as my luck with those is not good.

I am not sure I want nor need the Stewart High Performance WP. Its not the price that bothers me, I just feel its overkill and I dont drive the car hard nor track it to warrant that type of pump.

Does anyone know if Pelican Parts has the Genuine BMW with the upgraded composite impeller?

[Hoyt Clagwell]

If you read down the page on the Pelican link, you can see that this water pump is also a part of their "super kits" which describe the pump as having a composite impeller.

Bimmerbum has a genuine pump for a better price.
https://shop.bimmerbum.com/3-00450-g...s-11517509985/

They also have a Stewart high performance for the price of the ones you linked.
https://shop.bimmerbum.com/3-00404-e...pump-ste30330/

About 4 years ago I installed a rebuilt pump with a cast aluminum impeller. It was rebuilt in Germany and cost around 30 bucks. It's still going strong after 50K miles. I can't remember where I got it or the actual brand (URO maybe?) Anyway, I'd probably go with one of the links I provided.

[BimmerBreaker]

I don't think Stewart is an upgrade for a street car. Any impeller design that flows more at one RPM range will flow less at another, at least to some extent. I know several people who have installed Stewarts on road cars and ended up removing it in favor of a stock style pump. So it may benefit a track car that is seeing high RPM all the time but not for a street car that cruises all day at lower RPM's with just an occasional high speed run.

I'm not sure why you are having so many issues with the Saleri (I've installed at least 30 of those and never once had an issue...), but maybe just try a different brand and see what happens. I would leave the mechanical fan off just to rule that factor out, as you don't need that fan anyways in your area. Any wobble significant enough to damage the seals is almost certainly enough to cause a noticeable shaking so I doubt that's the case but you probably don't need that fan to begin with anyways...

The Pelican Parts pump you posted above has a modern composite impeller. If set on Genuine then go that route or get one from FCP so you have the lifetime warranty. If you bought your current pump from FCP you would have been able to return it for full store credit and use that money towards the replacement pump. The cost comes out to almost the same because FCP offers free shipping.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...mp-11517527799


When you install a pump and the weep hole hits crankshaft harmonic damper you just rotate it 180 degrees so the weep hole casting is on the top rather than the bottom.

[kezug]

If you read down the page on the Pelican link, you can see that this water pump is also a part of their "super kits" which describe the pump as having a composite impeller.

Bimmerbum has a genuine pump for a better price.
https://shop.bimmerbum.com/3-00450-g...s-11517509985/

They also have a Stewart high performance for the price of the ones you linked.
https://shop.bimmerbum.com/3-00404-e...pump-ste30330/

About 4 years ago I installed a rebuilt pump with a cast aluminum impeller. It was rebuilt in Germany and cost around 30 bucks. It's still going strong after 50K miles. I can't remember where I got it or the actual brand (URO maybe?) Anyway, I'd probably go with one of the links I provided.

Thank you on the bimmerbum link. I am searching for the part# and thats causing me to miss items like that! RealOEM for my car is: 11517527799. I will consider this.

I don't think Stewart is an upgrade for a street car. Any impeller design that flows more at one RPM range will flow less at another, at least to some extent. I know several people who have installed Stewarts on road cars and ended up removing it in favor of a stock style pump. So it may benefit a track car that is seeing high RPM all the time but not for a street car that cruises all day at lower RPM's with just an occasional high speed run.

I'm not sure why you are having so many issues with the Saleri (I've installed at least 30 of those and never once had an issue...), but maybe just try a different brand and see what happens. I would leave the mechanical fan off just to rule that factor out, as you don't need that fan anyways in your area. Any wobble significant enough to damage the seals is almost certainly enough to cause a noticeable shaking so I doubt that's the case but you probably don't need that fan to begin with anyways...

The Pelican Parts pump you posted above has a modern composite impeller. If set on Genuine then go that route or get one from FCP so you have the lifetime warranty. If you bought your current pump from FCP you would have been able to return it for full store credit and use that money towards the replacement pump. The cost comes out to almost the same because FCP offers free shipping.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...mp-11517527799


When you install a pump and the weep hole hits crankshaft harmonic damper you just rotate it 180 degrees so the weep hole casting is on the top rather than the bottom.

I agree on the Stewart and am avoiding it for those reaons.

I am not sure why mine are having issues and I can only suspect a potential bad batch (less likely) or something about my fan is causing it, slowly. While I do see a tiny variation in rotation (see my vids above), there is no sound or vibration. All that is smooth, even at high speeds.

FCP Euro has responded to me and indicated they would replace or refund without any issue, just need to put in my request or send it back once replaced.

This is what I am doing as a last ditch effort to rule out one other thing. To rule out that the small leak I had a while back in upper hose at thermostat housing may have pooled up behind the pulley OR when I filled my system using that hose with the method of disconnecting at radiator and raising to fill may have found some overfill running down that line, spilling and pooling up behind the pully. Any of those are possible but thinking that it would have been only a one thing noticed splatter, not ongoing but I took a small hose and rinsed behind that pulley and pump shaft. I watched the rinse down with my borescope and I was suprised but it took a good 2 gallon to get it to rinse clean. While I could not see the dyed coolant, the rinse off was showing it and finally it ran clear.

After that, I am thinking that this leak may be slow, where each drive, it has a little leak, that dries or congeals a little, then next drive, a little more. After a few drives, it finally reaches a point to splatter.....all this is "slow".

So, all that said, I have put about 100 miles, and some higher speeds and longer, plus leaving car running, its hot too. Lets see if it comes back. If so, I will replace. If not, its the aforementioned spills.

I am still contemplating the fan delete too.

[foxberryjam]

I implemented a Stewart pump when I did my complete cooling system replacement project about a year ago - no issues to date - what is the real world issue with a Stewart pump?

[BimmerBreaker]

There is no impeller design that flows more coolant at all RPM's - if there was, the OE pump would utilize that impeller design. The Stewart impeller is optimized for high RPM, which results in less flow at lower RPM. In really hot climates like mine, this can result in overheating in low RPM conditions, such as stop and go traffic or cruising at certain speeds.

In most places the slightly decreased efficiency at low RPM is not an issue.

[foxberryjam]

There is no impeller design that flows more coolant at all RPM's - if there was, the OE pump would utilize that impeller design. The Stewart impeller is optimized for high RPM, which results in less flow at lower RPM. In really hot climates like mine, this can result in overheating in low RPM conditions, such as stop and go traffic or cruising at certain speeds.

In most places the slightly decreased efficiency at low RPM is not an issue.

Got it - thanks for that explanation!

[Hoyt Clagwell]

I'm not sure why you are having so many issues with the Saleri (I've installed at least 30 of those and never once had an issue...)

It's possible that it's similar to an issue I had with a Rein water pipe. Rein had apparently installed the wrong O-ring on just some of the pipes they made. The reviews showed that the vast majority of buyers had no issue while one or two had leaks as I did. I asked FCP if they would send me BMW brand O-rings instead of replacing the pipe under warranty. They agreed and sent the O-ring free of charge. It resolved the issue. Visually, the two O-rings were almost identical with the BMW one being just ever so slightly fatter.
So you could try buying just the BMW water pump O-ring and seeing if that fixes your issue.

Nevermind, I just remembered that your issue is with the shaft seal.

embarrassed.jpg

BTW, I use a thin film of dielectric grease to lube the O-ring. a) because I have it. b) because it won't harm rubber or plastic. Some full strength, undiluted anti-freeze should also do the trick.