Kellie's old car starts, and then immediately dies. Over and over.

[VacMan]

Hey all,

I'm hoping you can help me out. I'm really anxious to get this car running.

I got the car to crank over and it starts right away, but it immediately dies. It doesn't matter if I have it floored or it's at idle, it dies as if someone has turned off the key.

I've done a metric ton of searching and reading, and I've found a few people who have described the same problem but are no longer around here. I've sent them emails but haven't gotten any responses yet.

I jumpered 87 and 15 on the fuel relay. It runs continually when the key is in the run position. Doesn't have any affect on the starting issue. Doesn't this also tell me that my ignition switch is good, since if I turn it off of run the pump shuts off?

I disconnected the cold start injector and it won't start at all, so I'm inclined to believe that the only injector getting fuel is the cold start injector.

There's a strong smell of gas after I've started it a few times. I don't know if it's dumping raw fuel into the cylinders or what, but it's strong. The car will fire right up every time I turn the key though, so I doubt it's flooding.

I'm 99% sure this is an electrical issue, since even if I pedal it there's no change in how long it runs. Even if I rev it to 4000 RPM immediately (start it with the pedal floored) it will still die just as quickly as if I had started it at idle.

Kellie said she drove this car around, and it has current registration from the PO, so I can't help thinking this is a minor thing. I haven't checked out the WUR yet, and that might be the culprit, but it just seems like it's an electrical issue. Is there a relay besides the fuel relay that might need to examine?

Thanks for any help,

Tim

[TheNeek]

definately sounds like fuel delivery. Shouldn't be the pump, becuase if the pump was dead or not working your cold start injector wouldn't work at all. I'd concentrate more on the fuel distributor. Seems like you've got no pressure there. Take the main feed off and make sure you're pumping fuel into the distributor. Put it in a bucket. It might be as easy as a clog.

BTW:

"What manner of man are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?"

[VacMan]

definately sounds like fuel delivery. Shouldn't be the pump, becuase if the pump was dead or not working your cold start injector wouldn't work at all. I'd concentrate more on the fuel distributor. Seems like you've got no pressure there. Take the main feed off and make sure you're pumping fuel into the distributor. Put it in a bucket. It might be as easy as a clog.

BTW:

"What manner of man are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?"

Thanks for the advice, I'll give that a shot. Interestingly, there's a brand new fuel filter in the trunk...

And for getting the reference, you are the man. You are only the second person to ever comment on that ever.

[OLD MAN]

Is there power to the dist. in the run position? Sounds to me like it is getting power from the starter solenoid when in the start position and then none in the run position when you release the key after it starts.

If you do this for a long time - change the oil before you run it for long. You most likely have gas in the crank case by now.

[uberpanzer]

Dude....I just never commented on it, was just laughing and remembering the large wooden badger they were going to try next. Python rocks!

I would say rule out the two things above, and if you're still having issues check all the vacuum lines. But it doesn't sound like that (yet).

[VacMan]

Is there power to the dist. in the run position? Sounds to me like it is getting power from the starter solenoid when in the start position and then none in the run position when you release the key after it starts.

If you do this for a long time - change the oil before you run it for long. You most likely have gas in the crank case by now.

I didn't mention it, but now that you say that, I will.

A couple of times I turned the key off and back on while the car was running down to die. I was trying to see if the ignition switch might have been the culprit. Each time I did it (and yes, the starter hit the flywheel...I hate that sound) the car would catch and run again until I let the key off of start back to the run position.

If you remember, I started off with this car not having any wiring hooked up to the starter. I played with the wiring until I got it to start, but now I'm wondering if maybe there's another lead I didn't see or something. I'll jumper 12v+ over to the distributor and see if that doesn't allow it to keep running.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

Tim

[Tomslide]

It could also be a fuel pump relay problem. Key on supplies fuel pump with voltage for ~5 seconds but de-energizes the pump if ignition pulse is not seen. Make sure there is ignition pulse at the relay, and if there is it could be the problem. You could just bypass the relay with a wire like I did when mine went out. Assuming of course this is your problem. Have someone listen to the fuel pump while you turn the key on. They should hear it prime and shut off. If it doesn't come back on when cranking- there's your problem.

[VacMan]

It could also be a fuel pump relay problem. Key on supplies fuel pump with voltage for ~5 seconds but de-energizes the pump if ignition pulse is not seen. Make sure there is ignition pulse at the relay, and if there is it could be the problem. You could just bypass the relay with a wire like I did when mine went out. Assuming of course this is your problem. Have someone listen to the fuel pump while you turn the key on. They should hear it prime and shut off. If it doesn't come back on when cranking- there's your problem.

Bypassing the relay would just be jumpering 15 and 78, or is there something that needs to be done to the other 2 spades as well? If I turn the car off and on without starting it I never hear the pump prime, and when I jumpered the fuel pump relay (15 and 78) it ran continually while the key was on Run. However, this made no difference in whether or not it would stay running. It still fires and then dies like someone turned the key off.

Thanks,

Tim

[TheNeek]

If you remember, I started off with this car not having any wiring hooked up to the starter. I played with the wiring until I got it to start, but now I'm wondering if maybe there's another lead I didn't see or something.

Sounds like you're running 12V to the ignition through the starter solenoid. Put a volt meter on the distributor and put the key to "run". It should be energized without having to bump the car to the "start" position. If you don't have 12V at the distributor there then you wired it through the starter solenoid.

[VacMan]

Sounds like you're running 12V to the ignition through the starter solenoid. Put a volt meter on the distributor and put the key to "run". It should be energized without having to bump the car to the "start" position. If you don't have 12V at the distributor there then you wired it through the starter solenoid.

That could very well be. I was stuck since every E21 I've seen and the pictures others kindly took for me all show a black/yellow wire, whereas the earlier starter uses a bundle of black wires on one side of the solenoid and the black/red on the opposite side. The only diagrams I have of the early E21 don't have a black/red wire anywhere.

Wiring it like this allowed me to engage the flywheel and start the car, but it could very well be what is stopping me from keeping the car running once the initial burst wears off.

Thanks for all the advice and keep it coming.

Tim

EDIT: If I disconnect the black/red wire and turn the key, the starter cranks but the bendix won't engage the flywheel. Should that black/red wire be connected through the distributor and then to the starter? The wires were clipped, so I have no idea where they were supposed to go.

[TheNeek]

what is wired to the distributor now?

I went through my wiring stuff I scanned for hooking up my M42. I don't show a black / red wire coming out of my E21 engine harness (I have an 81).

[jrcook320]

[quote=TheNeek;12947245] Take the main feed off and make sure you're pumping fuel into the distributor. Put it in a bucket. It might be as easy as a clog.[QUOTE]
No. If the cold start injector is spraying, there is fuel pressure at the distributor. Also, if the motor runs for a short period of time, the injectors are spraying. I don't think the cold start injector can supply enough fuel to run the motor by itself.

It could also be a fuel pump relay problem.

The motor runs with the relay jumpered with no change, not the problem.

This sounds like a simple lean condition to me. The motor runs at first because the cold start injector only sprays a maximum of 8 seconds, which enrichens the mixture just long enough for the motor to run until it stops spraying. Throttle position will have no effect on how long the motor runs, if the mixture is too lean to run, it's lean no matter where the throttle is.

The lean condition could be caused by several things. Vacuum leaks is the most likely. From there I'd look at the sensor plate adjustment & free travel, then make sure the mixture setting is set properly. To do this, jumper the pump and turn the mixture screw rich (clockwise) until you hear the injectors spray, then back the screw off till they stop spraying, then back off an addition 1/8 turn. That should at least get the motor running. If not the problem lies elseware.

The next thing I would suspect is a dirty warm up regulator causing a high cold control pressure.

[VacMan]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll try these steps tonight or this weekend and see if I can't get the beast running.

[GDAus]

Hi ... I've done a little digging and have found out what the Black/red wire is all about. So this might help.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO POINTS TYPE IGNITIONS ... if it has been fitted with an aftermarket electronic ignition or an engine from a later model ..then who knows what has been done to the ignition circuit !!!

But for points type ignition, the Back/red wire runs fron the second spade type terminal on the starter solenoid to the +ve terminal (15) on the ignition coil. This provides a 12v supply to the ignition coil, bypassing the ballast resistor, and giving an increased spark under start conditions.

So ... on the back of the starter solenoid there should be 2 male spade type terminals ... one should have a Black wire coming from the start terminal (50) on the ignition switch and the other (16) is where the Black/red connects.

If you are not sure which is which ... FIRST ..make sure the car is in Neutral !! (forgot that one a few times myself over the years .. LOL ) .... simply use a jumper from battery +ve and touch each spade terminal (not the big ones with the nut on!) and see what happens ...... the start terminal (50) will engage the starter and turn the engine over ... the other one (16) will do nothing .. that one is where the Black/red goes.
On the ignition coil ..on the +ve terminal (15) there should be 2 wires .. a green one and the other end of the Black/red wire from the starter.

According to the wiring diagram I checked .. the green wire has the ballast resistor as part of the wire .. not as a separate external resistor. I sounds like this resistor section may have "burnt out" and gone open circuit. A simple check is to disconnect both wires and see if there is 12 volts at the end of the green wire with the ignition on (key turned to the run position). If not .. then that is probably your problem.

Easiest fix would be to cut out the resistor part of the wire ( often identified with some bumps or rings in the wire insulation) and use an aftermarket external resistor (the big long square white ceramic things)

..the diagram shows for the '77-79 models a 0.9 ohm resitor was used but often there are changes in production so that may need checking !

Anyway .. thought this might help .. so Good Luck

[VacMan]

Hi ... I've done a little digging and have found out what the Black/red wire is all about. So this might help.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO POINTS TYPE IGNITIONS ... if it has been fitted with an aftermarket electronic ignition or an engine from a later model ..then who knows what has been done to the ignition circuit !!!

But for points type ignition, the Back/red wire runs fron the second spade type terminal on the starter solenoid to the +ve terminal (15) on the ignition coil. This provides a 12v supply to the ignition coil, bypassing the ballast resistor, and giving an increased spark under start conditions.

So ... on the back of the starter solenoid there should be 2 male spade type terminals ... one should have a Black wire coming from the start terminal (50) on the ignition switch and the other (16) is where the Black/red connects.

If you are not sure which is which ... FIRST ..make sure the car is in Neutral !! (forgot that one a few times myself over the years .. LOL ) .... simply use a jumper from battery +ve and touch each spade terminal (not the big ones with the nut on!) and see what happens ...... the start terminal (50) will engage the starter and turn the engine over ... the other one (16) will do nothing .. that one is where the Black/red goes.
On the ignition coil ..on the +ve terminal (15) there should be 2 wires .. a green one and the other end of the Black/red wire from the starter.

According to the wiring diagram I checked .. the green wire has the ballast resistor as part of the wire .. not as a separate external resistor. I sounds like this resistor section may have "burnt out" and gone open circuit. A simple check is to disconnect both wires and see if there is 12 volts at the end of the green wire with the ignition on (key turned to the run position). If not .. then that is probably your problem.

Easiest fix would be to cut out the resistor part of the wire ( often identified with some bumps or rings in the wire insulation) and use an aftermarket external resistor (the big long square white ceramic things)

..the diagram shows for the '77-79 models a 0.9 ohm resitor was used but often there are changes in production so that may need checking !

Anyway .. thought this might help .. so Good Luck

You're the man!

I'm pretty sure this explains the reason why it starts and then dies as if the key was turned off. Right now, the black/red wire is connected to the opposite side of the solenoid from the other leads, so that's the problem. I'm sure it's switched on when the key is in the start position, but it cuts power when the solenoid disengages and the key is turned back to run. This would also explain why if I blip the key back to start while the motor is running down it will catch and start running again.

Thanks very much, GDAus and everyone else. I'll let you know how it goes tonight when I get home from work. Maybe I'll be driving the E21 to work tomorrow.

Tim

[VacMan]

It runs! The wiring suggestion GDAus turned out to be the culprit. I moved the lead to the other side of the solenoid and it started up and kept running for the first time.

Of course, it runs so rich it makes my eyes burn and I'm afraid if my cigar-smoking buddy comes over to check it out he'll blow us both up, but it runs! It idles well and slowly revving ot up it sounds good. Any quick bursts and it sounds like a bad rod knock or dieseling.

It runs so poorly putting it into gear will immediately kill it. I can't get it into my driveway to charge the battery because it can't handle the .3% grade.

Tomorrow I will start troubleshooting it. I've found a check valve from the brake booster to the intake manifold that is split in two...if I move it too far it dies instantly. Who knows what else I might find.

Thanks again for all your help, Legion!

Tim

[gabmwdrvr]

Great news! With some tweaking you should be driving it soon, keep us updated.

[GDAus]

Happy to hear it is up and running ... I'm fairly new here but I'm glad to help keep another bm on the road ... and of course I've picked up some great tips here myself

BTW .. should say a big thank to JT for hosting a bunch of wiring diagrams on his site at http://www.jtresto.com/e21info.htm these ones are the most accurate I have seen.

I'm an Electrical Engineering Technician by training .. and trying to read car wiring diagrams is one of the hardest things I have ever done !! the one's in the Haynes manual are pretty vague and there are certainly some mistakes.

Good Luck with the rest ...

Graham D

[opyner]

It runs so poorly putting it into gear will immediately kill it. I can't get it into my driveway to charge the battery because it can't handle the .3% grade.

Might want to check your spark advance or use a different set of plugs and wires. Spent all day tuning carbs to find I was only firing on 2 cylinders.

[kellie]

Bump for updates.

[NHskibm]

Congrats on the pick-up Tim. I thought the sig pic looked like Cocoa.

And I'm here thanks to Kellie's FS thread! OT is good in threads sometimes.

If you appear to end up having issues with the engine and looks like you need major overhaul let me know!

I have a complete M40 sitting around looking for a home!

Can't wait to see updates! Pics please!

[VacMan]

NHSkibm, thanks for the offer but an M40 shipped across the country would still be too expensive. I have access to an M20 right now, and my buddy is getting ready to do an s50 swap into his 318is, so I might have an M42 to choose from as well.

Updates? Let me see...

Last weekend was spent with my wife, so nothing new to report. It's been 95+ here the last few days with no relief in sight this weekend, so I probably won't do too much with it today. Tomorrow morning I'm heading to LA and will be gone for most of the day.

Once I got the car running at idle, I let it sit running while I washed my truck. Halfway through, the car died and wouldn't restart. It will crank, catch, and then die. I'm pretty sure the fuel in it is decent, but I'm guessing the fuel filter needs changing among other issues. To compound matters, the battery that came with it won't hold a charge, so I need to get a new one.

There's a big split in a hose on the backside of the motor that runs to the throttle body and the aforementioned broken check valve from the brake booster. I also found some of the small diameter hoses have spits in them. I was looking for someone who sold a complete kit rather than trying to piece a kit together myself, but so far I haven't had any luck. Also, realoem's schematics don't jive with some of the hose routing on the car, so I'm going to have to figure out what's what. I need to figure out if it's worth it since my short term goals include a motor swap.

I went to a local yard and found a good rear seat, antenna and a complete center console. Unfortunately, the console is for a face lift car and won't work as far as I can tell. I also found 2 sets of the OEM gold 13" BBS RA wheels but no one seems to have any interest in them, so I left them there. They're probably still there now since the yard I go to has many treasures and most people don't know about it.

All of the door and popout gaskets are shrunk and from inside the car you can see sky. I'm still looking for a decent used set of them so I can seal this baby up. Of course, without air I doubt I'll be commuting in it anytime soon.

I'll let you know as stuff develops.

Tim

[kellie]

Man, the weather has been HOT these last few days. El Cajon was pure hell yesterday, so I don't imagine it was much better where you live. Gold BBS would look pretty on Cocoa, and I know a really good wheel refinisher...

[uberpanzer]

I'm going to be commuting in mine soon, but I live in SD so it is a bit cooler here most of the time.

Glad it's coming along nicely. If you end up passing on that M42 PLEASE post up info on it here. I've got a buddy with a '91 318is that needs a new motor (PO 'killed' this one and he bought it from her as a project) and he is trying to get it up and smogged on the M42 first, then eventually go 24v. And if HE doesn't need it by then, I'm sure other people will on here for e21 swapping.

BTW, for anyone that was thinking of my M42, it may not be easy to get a hold of. The shop the new owner of my 318is took the car to seems to think it should cost $1200 in just LABOR to remove the M42 from an e30. Guys are smoking crack, so I'm going to talk to the owner of the car and see if he can talk them out of 12+ hours of labor (to the 3 or less it should take) or maybe he will take it someplace else. I'll keep you updated (probably without thread-jacking again ).

[melloh]

If you contact bavauto, bmp, or pelican, (and probably bma also) I'm sure they can bundle up all the vacuum hoses you need for you. Before I kknew about pelican, I think I got mine from bavauto (and sometimes bmp). Or at least, use that they have in their bundle to make your own custome bundle from all them worldpac places to save a few bucks.