The Definitive Alignment Guide for your E36 M3

[Cyril Sneer]

Anyone care to debate the positives and negatives of swapping hats vs shimming (with the Bimmerworld kit, say)???

I'm not sure which way I should go.

[Johno]

I've noticed some varied information in this thread about shims. In the original post, ther was mention of two bolts that needed shimmed. In the post recommending the bimmerworld kit, the shims have three hole.

Which is it, two or three?

The Bimmerworld kit also includes some bolts.

Four questions:

• How many bolts need to be shimmed on a 99 M3?
• How many bimmerworld shims need to be added to ge tthe 2.5?
• Will the bimmerworld bolts solve the problem of the stock bolts being out distanced by the shims?
• Has anybody actually tried the street setup recommended here? That's all I see missing -- the "I tried it and it was wonderful/sucked."

My only goal for doing this would be decreased tire wear. Especially on the rear. My fronts last 2x as long as the rear, before the TS.

Thanks,

JO

[douglee25]

I've noticed some varied information in this thread about shims. In the original post, ther was mention of two bolts that needed shimmed. In the post recommending the bimmerworld kit, the shims have three hole.

Which is it, two or three?

The Bimmerworld kit also includes some bolts.

Four questions:

• How many bolts need to be shimmed on a 99 M3?
• How many bimmerworld shims need to be added to ge tthe 2.5?
• Will the bimmerworld bolts solve the problem of the stock bolts being out distanced by the shims?
• Has anybody actually tried the street setup recommended here? That's all I see missing -- the "I tried it and it was wonderful/sucked."

My only goal for doing this would be decreased tire wear. Especially on the rear. My fronts last 2x as long as the rear, before the TS.

Thanks,

JO

How about you be the first to try the Bimmerworld Kit? It's only 25$.

Doug

[Johno]

How about you be the first to try the Bimmerworld Kit? It's only 25$

Well, there's still that question of whether two or three holes are needed, and how many shims = 2.5.

Seems prudent to learn the basics like that before messing with the finnicky suspension on an M3.

I have a "good" alignment now, and the car is aligned correctly (by dealers or indy shops) about 60 percent of the time. The body shop where I had it aligned makes it feel like a new car. I'm not about to mess with that until I know if the shim goes under 3 bolts per Bimmerworld or 2 per the original post.

Apologies if I misread or missed something.

[Johno]

P.S. If a car is aligned by BMW spec -- will simply adding the shims deliver the -2.5, or do I need to get it aligned again?

thanks,

[ScotcH]

The BW kit has 3 holes because it goes across the whole strut bottom, which has 2 bolts, plus an alignemnt pin (in the middle). If you're just using washers, obviously they only are needed on the 2 bolts.

As for how much it adds, I seem to recall that 4mm shim = 1º, so go from there.

[gdrum]

In reference to the shims here is my current situation. After putting h&r sports and konis together with 96 hats on a 95....the top of the wheel is pointing out on both sides. A shim kit will be what it will take to even it up at the bottom? Is that normal for it to lean out at the top or does it vary? Its making the outside of both front tires wear bad and need a solution quick.

[metale]

As for how much it adds, I seem to recall that 4mm shim = 1º, so go from there.

More like 3mm = 1º.

In reference to the shims here is my current situation. After putting h&r sports and konis together with 96 hats on a 95....the top of the wheel is pointing out on both sides. A shim kit will be what it will take to even it up at the bottom? Is that normal for it to lean out at the top or does it vary? Its making the outside of both front tires wear bad and need a solution quick.

You are supposed to install them swapped left <-> right.

This car is German built so by design it must handle safely in the limit free high speed German Auto-Bahns!

Portuguese highways are a little worse than german autobahns lol

[gdrum]

More like 3mm = 1º.






You are supposed to install them swapped left <-> right.






Portuguese highways are a little worse than german autobahns lol

Seriously like so like you mean install them backwards....or that I might have them installed backwards?

[metale]

Seriously like so like you mean install them backwards....or that I might have them installed backwards?

When installing +96 strut hats on a 95, you want the arrows still pointing forward, but you put the left one on the right side, and the right one on the left side. If you install them otherwise, you'll end up with LESS negative camber than you had before (as you seem you did).

[gdrum]

When installing +96 strut hats on a 95, you want the arrows still pointing forward, but you put the left one on the right side, and the right one on the left side. If you install them otherwise, you'll end up with LESS negative camber than you had before (as you seem you did).

Ahhh I did not notice that,.,.,,that explains my problem.,.,what about the bottom should I plan on using a shim or does it vary?

[metale]

Ahhh I did not notice that,.,.,,that explains my problem.,.,what about the bottom should I plan on using a shim or does it vary?

Don't worry about the bottom right now. Swap those strut hats.

[LAWLence]

I just had my car aligned to the specs posted above and it feels AWESOME. The car is much more responsive to quick steering input.

Here are the specs I went with:
Front:
Camber: -3.0º
Toe: ~.04 toe out (tried to zero it)
Caster: -5.5º

Rear:
Camber: -2.3º
Toe: .20 toe in

[evandro]

I just had my car aligned to the specs posted above and it feels AWESOME. The car is much more responsive to quick steering input.

Here are the specs I went with:
Front:
Camber: -3.0º
Toe: ~.04 toe out (tried to zero it)
Caster: -5.5º

Rear:
Camber: -2.3º
Toe: .20 toe in

With -3.0 deg neg camber at front, can you still drive "confortably / relaxed" at high speeds, without the need to keep correcting the steering wheel?

[LAWLence]

It was way worse when I had toe in up front. I don't know how the roads are in portugal, but we have a lot of concrete freeways here with all kinds of cracks and ruts in them that are parallel to the direction you're going (which means a lot of tramlining). I had the toe zeroed out and the tramlining was almost nonexistent. I also run a 235 tire up front. Usually the more contact patch you have, the more it wants to tramline (so if you run more camber, you should theoretically have less tendency to tramline unless your toe settings are way off).

[cohny]

Anyone care to debate the positives and negatives of swapping hats vs shimming (with the Bimmerworld kit, say)???

I'm not sure which way I should go.

This would be really helpful if anyone could answer it. Also anyone have a simple DIY for these.

[GazM3]

with the -ve3deg front camber and small toe out how do the front inner edges cope.
i ran a similar setup and the front tyre inner edges canvased themselves in short time

I ran -ve2deg and zero toe and tyre wear is pretty good, but on the track it leans a little on the outer edges. ill try -3deg with zero toe and see how this goes. i dont mind a little bit of inner edge wear but dont wanna lunch them in 300miles like i did with the other tyres.

[evandro]

BMW TIS, in their M3 Sport Suspension Alignement settings, still specs a small TOE IN at front together with a higher negative camber than stock. Don't remember from the top of my head but I think it's 0º05' toe in front (total or individual don't know), and -2º00' (or max -2º39', don't remember either) camber front.
Must be for some reason (less tyre wear, more stability at high speeds, etc)...
I am going to try this myself as soon as I fix the high speed wandering (after getting a new or reconditioned steering rack). I will then swap the front strut mounts left to right and do a 4WA with zero to 0º05' total front toe in. Then monitor the tyre wear and the general handling.

EO

[M52 POWER!]

This is for a street/track setup. It is also my DD.

Since installing my ast 4100 coilovers and adjustable front/rear camber arms I have been experimenting with many different suspension setups.

Suspension components:

• Powerflex subframe, RTAB and offset front control arm bushings.
• Vorshlag AST 4100 coilovers 550F 600R spring rates.
• Vorshlag front adjustable camber/caster plates.
• Reinforced rear subframe.
• Ground control rear adjustable camber arms
• Nitto Invo 245/40ZR17 tires on all 4 wheels.
• Mason Engineering front and rear strut tower reinforcement bars.

I read a lot of the recommendations on this forum so right off the bat my first alignment was:
Front: -2.8, 0 toe, caster 7.3L, 7.5R
Rear: -1.8, .10 toe

Turn in response was horrible, feel was sloppy and loose. Unless I really beat on the car and "threw" it into a turn it wouldn't "rotate" onto the tire and grab the road. I needed to induce body roll very forcefully to get the tire to roll over and grab traction. It was not street-able at all and handling horrible and unpredictable at the limit.


My next alignment was:
Front: -2.3, .08 toe, caster 7.3L, 7.5R
Rear -1.5, .10 toe

The car had more turn in response, handling was more predictable but still at the limit it was too sloppy and unpredictable. Still wasn't happy.


Yesterday I re-aligned the car again. This time taking into account that I have a car with almost 50/50 weight distribution, deciding my front and rear camber will be closer. Since I am running 550 front and 600 rear spring rates I'll use slightly less camber in the rear than the front.

Alignment results:
Front: -1.6, .08 toe, caster 7.3L, 7.5R
Rear: -1.4, .10 toe

So far this is THE BEST the car has felt, the car is very neutral and much more predictable. At the limit the sloppiness is gone. It also has surprisingly better grip at low speed than before.


I just thought I would post my experience with alignment settings. It seems what I read on the forums as the accepted best alignment was nothing but that. Perhaps with my stiffer spring rates I am not getting enough body roll to require such a high amount of camber? Either way I'd like to hear what others think of my findings.

Next experiment is to delete the rear sway bar and see how the car handles.

-Chris

[M52 POWER!]

I'd also like to add every time the car is aligned I weigh down the drivers seat only to simulate the weight of me in the car since this is how it is driven 80% of the time.

[eugenem3]

Mods need to sticky this!!

[evandro]

I am confused now, and honestly very sceptical in trying different specs that were supposed to improve the handling, then spend lots of money on 2 or 3 alignments and end up concluding that my M3 handles better on the road with... OEM specs!

[Cyril Sneer]

Mods need to sticky this!!

It is, in a roundabout way. Look under the sticky titled 'Look inside for links to several tech threads'.

[Cyril Sneer]

Perhaps with my stiffer spring rates I am not getting enough body roll to require such a high amount of camber? Either way I'd like to hear what others think of my findings.
-Chris

I'm not an expert, but I think you are probably correct that your car is not leaning enough with all the mods to stiffen/tighten everything up, so the tire is staying on the inside shoulder too much. Did you try the settings on the track or HARD cornering? If so, was it better there?

I am confused now, and honestly very sceptical in trying different specs that were supposed to improve the handling, then spend lots of money on 2 or 3 alignments and end up concluding that my M3 handles better on the road with... OEM specs!

evandro, I suspect that if you do not have as many chassis mods as M52 POWER does, the specs recommended in this thread would work better for you.

I haven't tried it, but when I do I'll post my findings.

[evandro]

I'm not an expert, but I think you are probably correct that your car is not leaning enough with all the mods to stiffen/tighten everything up, so the tire is staying on the inside shoulder too much. Did you try the settings on the track or HARD cornering? If so, was it better there?


evandro, I suspect that if you do not have as many chassis mods as M52 POWER does, the specs recommended in this thread would work better for you.

I haven't tried it, but when I do I'll post my findings.

Well I have pretty much similar chassis mods as M52 (Powerflex bushes, Eibach Pro-kit springs with OEM Sachs dampers, lower X-brace, strut bars front & rear), plus H&R sway bars (set to HARD front, SOFT rear). What I don't have is those Nitto tyres (are these race tyres)? I have Fulda Carat Exelero's, which are high performance street tyres and to be honest, the best I had on my M3 so far, better than GY F1 GSD3 and Michelin Pilot Sport.
My car turns almost FLAT. I am running OEM alignment specs and the turn-in suffers a little initial delay but I think that is because my steering rack has some slack in the middle position.
So hmmm I fear I can ruin the handling by swapping front top mounts to gain more camber. What really confuses me is that almost everyone on here that does auto-X and race their cars seem to indicate -2.5 to -3.0 deg front camber as the best set up for the ROAD, while others say more than -2.0 is too much, which coincides with what M52 concluded by experience!

Cheers all,
EO