The Definitive Alignment Guide for your E36 M3

[olemiss540]

Forum Geniuses! Quick Question:

Issue: Rear end instability under straight line hard braking
Car: Track ONLY 1995 M3
Setup: Koni SA coilover conversion, 275 NT01 squared, Hard Motorsports Flares, Camber -3.5 Ft -2.5 R, Toe 1/16 total in Front; 1/8 Total toe in rear, Rake: 1.5" front to rear for tire clearance, Height: Maybe stock height (for tire clearance).

Any input as to why it is so much more unstable under heavy braking than my brother's e46? ABS has been deactivated due to heavy interference under braking but it has tremendous feel and stopping power (PFC01 pads).
Could it use additional rear toe in to help stabilize? Is the higher ride height adding to the issue? Could it be the differential being bad causing the instability?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

[douglee25]

LCAB? When was the last time they were swapped out?

[olemiss540]

LCAB? When was the last time they were swapped out?

Rear end balljoints/bushings are going to be replaced this winter as they are original (114k miles). Only RTABS, diff bushings, and rear lower control arms have been recently replaced. Do you think failing rear lower control arm bushings would contribute to this issue?

[douglee25]

Rear end balljoints/bushings are going to be replaced this winter as they are original (114k miles). Only RTABS, diff bushings, and rear lower control arms have been recently replaced. Do you think failing rear lower control arm bushings would contribute to this issue?

Apologies, I meant RTABs initially. Brain fart.

[douglee25]

But after thinking about it, it could be bushings. Have you physically looked to see what you can find?

[mpathic]

What are your front caster angles? Uneven caster by 1/2 degree or more could make braking a bit squirmy. Have you flushed the brake fluid recently? You could just have mushy brake fluid causing uneven front to rear brake bias.

[olemiss540]

What are your front caster angles? Uneven caster by 1/2 degree or more could make braking a bit squirmy. Have you flushed the brake fluid recently? You could just have mushy brake fluid causing uneven front to rear brake bias.

Caster angles are off by a degree..... Getting SLR adjustable FCABs, we will see if that helps!

[Lukitas]

So I just got my car aligned and I believe I told them the wrong thing this is what the sheet says:

Before:

Front Left : Front Right:
Camber -1.7 -1.9
Caster: 4.9 5.0
Toe: -0.15 -0.07
Total Toe: -0.21

Rear:
Left Rear: Right Rear:
Camber : -1.5 -1.3
Toe: -0.01 -0.02
Total Toe: -0.03

NEW ALIGNEMENT

Front Left : Front Right:
Camber -2.0 -2.0
Caster: 4.9 5.0
Toe: -0.10 -0.09
Total Toe: -0.18

Rear:
Left Rear: Right Rear:
Camber : -1.5 -1.5
Toe: -0.21 -0.22
Total Toe: 0.43


Does this seem ok? or should I take it back and tell them to adjust the front and rear toe? (I have lifetime alignment)

Thanks!

[aeronaut]

Rear toe looks a bit much. I use 1/8" total, which I think works out to around 0.25-0.3 deg total.
Bottom line, if they didn't align to the specs you wanted (or get close), you should ask for a do over.

[Lukitas]

Rear toe looks a bit much. I use 1/8" total, which I think works out to around 0.25-0.3 deg total.
Bottom line, if they didn't align to the specs you wanted (or get close), you should ask for a do over.

so does the front Toe look good and the caster?

[aeronaut]

Depends on what you're using the car for. The first post in this thread is still appropriate.
Up front, 2 to 2.5deg neg camber and just a touch of toe-in is a very good street setup. That's what your numbers are showing. Some folks run zero front toe. I personally find that's a bit too unstable for me because my car tends to tram line, especially in the rain. That could easily be tire and road dependent.
Do you have camber/caster plates? If not, caster isn't directly adjustable.

[Lukitas]

Depends on what you're using the car for. The first post in this thread is still appropriate.
Up front, 2 to 2.5deg neg camber and just a touch of toe-in is a very good street setup. That's what your numbers are showing. Some folks run zero front toe. I personally find that's a bit too unstable for me because my car tends to tram line, especially in the rain. That could easily be tire and road dependent.
Do you have camber/caster plates? If not, caster isn't directly adjustable.

so I took it back and told them to fix the toe. to set the front toe in to .5 on each side and rear .10 on each side.

[aeronaut]

so I took it back and told them to fix the toe. to set the front toe in to .5 on each side and rear .10 on each side.

Hopefully, you asked for 0.05deg each side front.

[chynk]

Looking for a quick answer.
I've skimmed the thread quite a bit.

My car is a street car that likes to drive the mountains at times.

I just got my car aligned to

Front
0.05 left 0.05 right = 0.10 total toe in
Rear
0.10 left 0.10 right = 0.20 total toe in

Front camber is at -2.0 left, -1.7 right
Rear camber -1.6 left, -1.7 right.

(Any recommendations on camber for my car? My front has no modifications regarding camber, rear has camber arms.
I don't plan on adding shims or anything but may consider one to the front right to match the left camber if you guys can convince me to do so?)

My caster on the left is at 6.8 for some reason while the right is at 7.5, any clue on why that might be? (Edit - Just looked at my past alignments from two years ago, my left caster was fine at 7.5. Perhaps I hit something?)

[LockDots]

Caster might be a worn lower control arm bushing or bent control arm.

[PrinceE30]

Looking for a quick answer.
I've skimmed the thread quite a bit.

My car is a street car that likes to drive the mountains at times.

I just got my car aligned to

Front
0.05 left 0.05 right = 0.10 total toe in
Rear
0.10 left 0.10 right = 0.20 total toe in

Front camber is at -2.0 left, -1.7 right
Rear camber -1.6 left, -1.7 right.
(Any tips on camber for my car? My front has no modifications, my rear has camber arms that aren't being taken advantage of.)

My caster on the left is a mess at 6.8 for some reason while the right is at 7.5, any clue on why that might be?

Were you in the car when they aligned it? Putting weight in the driver seat should add a little bit more Caster to the left side, but not necessarily enoigh to even it out. Personally, I would do whatever possible to even the camera out to both sides. Anywhere between -2 and -3 degrees should be okay for Street driving. The big thing that I see which I would change would be the front toe. Change it to either 0 or slightly out (I run 1/4" total). Your rear camber looks okay. If you decided to stick some 200 treadwear tires for race tires, I might go above to a little bit.

By the way, what are your spring rates?

[jayjaya29]

More camber in the front is all I would change. Nice conservative settings that won't put you in oversteer situations in the twisties. Keep it between the ditches

[aeronaut]

See above.

I personally would not run front toe-out on a street car. It causes very interesting characteristics on wet roads and roads with odd camber. Think traming.
I wouldn't worry too much about those caster settings, that's not terrible for a street car IMO. But as stated above, double check for suspension parts wear.

On my car (when it was street only), somewhere around -2.25 or -2.5 neg camber up front is where it really came alive.
I'd keep rear camber 1 to 0.5 deg less neg camber than the front. Within that range you can play with the rear camber a little bit to get the car balanced.

[chynk]

I'm on Konis and H&R sport springs. Suspension feels good, tie rods and all.

The car drives straight too, no pulling. If I were to drive with my hands off the wheel on the freeway, it would eventually go right instead of left interestingly enough.

I think I may end up shimming the right side front camber to help balance it out a bit.

The only issue is that I don't know what size to go with since reading the first page

"0.5 deg - 1.16mm"

Where can I find smaller ones and at what point should I get longer bolts?

I think I'm gonna do -2 camber front, -1.5 camber rear.

[jayjaya29]

Many camber bolt kits come with extended bolts. You're going to want at least 3 threads of bolt engagement if you want to find washers/bolts yourself.

[douglee25]

Leave the toe where it's at. Find my posts before running zero toe on the street in the rain...

[Jorge1190]

I installed Bilstein Sport and HR Sport springs on my 99 M3 and I'm trying to figure out my toe setting. I installed poly RTABs and also replaced the balljoints in the trailing arms. At -2 degrees rear camber I'm at .53 total toe in (.26 and .27) and the alignment shop said it is maxed. Does this sound right?

I can get toe correction offset RTABs but was also wondering if maybe adjustble camber arms may help since i can pull the rear of the trailing arm in with them?

Thank you.

[LockDots]

I installed Bilstein Sport and HR Sport springs on my 99 M3 and I'm trying to figure out my toe setting. I installed poly RTABs and also replaced the balljoints in the trailing arms. At -2 degrees rear camber I'm at .53 total toe in (.26 and .27) and the alignment shop said it is maxed. Does this sound right?

I can get toe correction offset RTABs but was also wondering if maybe adjustble camber arms may help since i can pull the rear of the trailing arm in with them?

Thank you.

No. I was able to get 0.2 total toe in at the rear on koni yellows with Eibach springs with -2 camber in the rear.


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[TostitoBandito]

I too have approximately 0.20 degrees rear toe-in. My shop does it in mm not degrees, so it's around 3.0-3.2mm total. I'm using OEM RTAB's with limiters at the moment, but I previously had poly RTAB's with the same alignment. I'm at -2 degrees camber as well. The adjustment should be there with the stock RTAB and trailing arms, unless something has been changed/damaged/bent.

[LockDots]

What my guy had to do was use an air hammer to move the arm over just a little more and have another person hold it in place while he tightened the bolts in place. Not impossible or out of the ordinary. Just a little rough if you have poly bushings or 20yr old suspension that hasn't been touched.

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