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Thread: Replacing brake booster - HELP!

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Nope, pedal travel sensor was not included with my A1Cardone either. I doubt they are with any booster as they're somewhat pricey.

    My orginal travel sensor had the blue tip. That's about all I know for sure.
    Right, but didn't you conclude that the sensor tip color should match the booster paint indicator color? I hope my stock sensor has the same color tip or else i'll have to buy a new sensor just for the tips? :/

  2. #152
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    Someone else in my thread found documentation SOMEWHERE that stated the tip should match a color code painted on the booster. I simply agree that makes sense.

    Blue seems to be the most common color! I haven't looked closely at my booster yet to see if I can find a color dot/code. Will do that today!

    I have a few color tips left over, so if you don't have a matching tip, let me know what color you need and I could throw one in the mail for you. I could also measure the lentghts and you might be able to modify your current sensor/tips to match.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Someone else in my thread found documentation SOMEWHERE that stated the tip should match a color code painted on the booster. I simply agree that makes sense.

    Blue seems to be the most common color! I haven't looked closely at my booster yet to see if I can find a color dot/code. Will do that today!

    I have a few color tips left over, so if you don't have a matching tip, let me know what color you need and I could throw one in the mail for you.

  4. #154
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    I could also measure the lentghts and you might be able to modify your current sensor/tips to match.

  5. #155
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    The "dot" is a 10mm diameter colored plastic sticker placed near the check valve and pedal travel sensor. My original booster has a blue sticker and the used replacement (I hope it works better -- if it doesn't, I've just gained some practice in replacing the booster for next time) has a green sticker -- fortunately, the used one came with a pedal travel sensor.

  6. #156
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    ^ Ahhh...that's why mine is long gone. Crap, I would have liked to have known what color it was.

  7. #157
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Some important info about parts, and a couple of working hints on changing out the booster — based on my recent experience:

    - Disconnect the battery.
    - Unplug the three (may be two on early model years?) large round harness connectors on the side of the fuse box and tuck them out of the way. Unclip the support bracket that holds the three fixed connectors. Undo the retaining ring from each fixed connector and separate them from the bracket, then tuck everything away to one side.
    - Undo the single red power feed wire to the fuse box, tuck aside.
    - Unbolt the dipstick tube upper support bracket to allow the tube to be pushed out of the way.
    - Remove any other components that are going to be in the way. These will vary depending on model year and how non-standard that area of your car may be, but in my case (definitely non-standard) it included the fuel tank vapor purge valve and a couple of other electrical odds and ends.
    - Yes the ABS pump does not need to be removed! Undo its forward resilient mount and force the pump out and to the side of its bracket. There's enough flex in the steel lines to allow it to move, and that'll generate clearance to allow pulling out the booster.
    - Reassembling with the new booster is tricky without banging it up. I made working room by pushing in its brake rod and strapping through the clevis and around the booster body with extra heavy-duty tie wraps (join end to end for length). The extra inch or more of clearance from partially retracting the brake rod makes all the difference. Once the rod/clevis is slipped into the firewall hole you can snip the tie-wraps and discard them.
    - It's easier to reconnect (and disconnect in the first place) the clevis to the brake pedal down in the footwell if you first remove the brake light switch from its bracket. This is simple to do if you know the trick for unclipping the switch, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m13PvjsRsBk.

    Some notes about parts:
    - You'll likely want to replace the now ancient original low pressure hoses connecting the brake fluid reservoir to the ABS pump (one 8mm ID, one 10mm ID) and to the clutch master cylinder (7.5mm ID). And if so, cutting the originals makes initial parts disassembly easier. Unlike me, pause before you do that...
    - At this time (May 2018) the two ABS pump feed hoses aren't wonderfully available. FCP didn't have either of them and said they couldn't get them. There were two of P/N 34322227297 (8mm ID) in stock in the USA BMW parts system, of which I now have one in hand. There were none of the 34322227296 (10mm ID) in the USA, but 18 of them in Germany. I've ordered one but have no idea how long it'll take, and while maybe BMW will bring over extras, don't bet on it.
    - I did find generic brake fluid supply hose in both the 8mm and 10mm ID sizes from www.brakehoses.biz. However their product lacks the external reinforcing braid of the BMW parts. The braid isn't there for mechanical protection, but to prevent the hose from kinking/collapsing when bent sharply. For using the generic hose in this application you may need to insert a suitably sized coil spring (hardware store) into the bend area to keep it open.
    - P/N 21521163714, the 7.5mm clutch master cylinder supply hose, is readily available — it's even on Amazon. (Good thing too, since 7.5mm ID is an odd size and there's no clip used on the recessed lower end, so proper fit is essential.) This part comes as a single 3 ft length that's enough for three cars at least. Unlike the others, this particular hose can only be replaced with the booster removed, so it's really worth doing now.
    - Contrary to popular belief, OE style crimp-on (Oetiker) hose clamps are better for this kind of application than generic worm drive clamps. I found this excellent boxed assortment, in stainless steel and complete with installation tool, on Amazon for $35: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 05-06-2018 at 02:21 PM.

  8. #158
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    Great info. So did the booster improve the brake firmness/feel?

    I'll be doing this job in a few weeks and ordered the ABS pump return hoses from ECS. As you said, one is available, the other has a 3wk lead. I had forgotten the return to MC so i just ordered off Amazon. I also ordered the hose clamp kit you suggested. I haven't used this type before so it'll be extra fun.

    How did you bleed the master cylinder?

  9. #159
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    I ordered both of those low pressure hoses and OE style clamps and have them in hand. Oddly one of the replacement hoses (34322227296) is now rubber vs being the original blue braided hose. The other one (34322227297) remains blue braided. Pic attached.

    Intersted to see what arrives for you...

    IMG_6485.jpg

  10. #160
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBDan View Post
    Great info. So did the booster improve the brake firmness/feel?
    TBD. I'm waiting for the remaining hose to arrive, or failing that I'll use the generic. I have a track weekend coming up the weekend after next, so that's the deadline.

    I'll be doing this job in a few weeks and ordered the ABS pump return hoses from ECS. As you said, one is available, the other has a 3wk lead. I had forgotten the return to MC so i just ordered off Amazon. I also ordered the hose clamp kit you suggested. I haven't used this type before so it'll be extra fun.

    How did you bleed the master cylinder?
    Not yet done, per the above. However I use a pressure regulator set at 15 psi mounted to an aluminum brake fluid reservoir cap, all fed by my garage air compressor. This gives positive pressure through the system even when there are large air voids. It also allows me to pump the brake pedal without having a second person on hand to open and close caliper bleed nipples. The disadvantage is that it's easy to empty the reservoir of fluid if you don't pay attention. I speak from experience...

    Since the discharge ports are on the side, our M/C design doesn't allow for effective bench bleeding. I pour a little brake fluid into both top and both side ports, then work the actuator rod a bit just to lube the seals. Note that as installed the M/C sits at a distinctly nose up angle. There's a school of thought that says air bubbles can get trapped at the front end and that you should jack the rear of the car to level it and allow bubbles to escape up into the reservoir. I don't know if this is really helpful or not, but it's so easy to do that I probably will.

    All other secrets and suggestions — short of sacrificing a goat or something — are welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamGrant951 View Post
    I ordered both of those low pressure hoses and OE style clamps and have them in hand. Oddly one of the replacement hoses (34322227296) is now rubber vs being the original blue braided hose. The other one (34322227297) remains blue braided. Pic attached.

    Intersted to see what arrives for you...
    Hmm, cost reduction by BMW? At least it's still moulded to shape rather than just a straight bit of hose.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 05-08-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  11. #161
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    I got the ATE booster from onlinecarparts.co.uk today. It shipped from Germany. It also included a new travel sensor which is a nice bonus. I hope to install it this weekend, only hold up being the one stupid return hose that's backordered.

  12. #162
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    TBD. I'm waiting for the remaining hose to arrive, or failing that I'll use the generic. I have a track weekend coming up the weekend after next, so that's the deadline.
    I got everything back together a few days before the track event at Autobahn, outside of Chicago. Needless to say, that backordered hose arrived just after I'd reassembled using the generic 10mm ID hose (with an internal spring to avoid kinking). I got the brakes bled and the clutch (what a PITA that is), went out and did three or four full-on ABS stops, then bled the calipers again. I've now had the opportunity to drive a couple of hundred miles each way to the track, plus three days of track use.

    Now the verdict is in, and the verdict is FAIL.

    After more than a grand in parts and materials — booster, master cylinder, hoses, lots of expensive racing brake fluid — my brake pedal still sinks. It may be slightly improved from before, but not by much. With the engine off and hard pressure on the pedal it'll go to the floor in about 30 seconds. With the engine running and full booster vacuum it'll go to the floor in half that time. On street or track I do get fairly effective braking, but with the same required quick double pump.

    So where is that brake fluid going as my pedal sinks? The traditional answer would be that it's leaking past the master cylinder piston seals, but since this is the third master cylinder in the car's lifetime (original plus two brand new replacements) that seems unlikely. The brake booster itself is now brand new. There's no brake fluid leakage anywhere. That seems to leave only one remaining actor: the ABS pump. I see two possible root causes there. One is that there's still air trapped inside that's being compressed by the master cylinder stroke. The other is that, remembering the ABS pump's whole purpose is to bypass fluid pressure from the main brake circuit, there's some leakage past its internal valves.

    I'm not yet in a position to bleed the ABS pump using the bleed nipple on its side, but I can see a couple of potential ways to do this. A fair bit of work is involved. The other option is to replace the ABS pump with the used spare I have on hand, and that involves even more work. It's also quite uncertain in that this ABS pump has been sitting in my garage for at least a decade, and so might be no better than the one I have. Or worse. Or suppose that's not the problem anyway.

    Frustrating!

    Neil

  13. #163
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    Or ..... get rid of all that crap and connect your pedal directly to the caliper (ie, remove booster, ABS, etc), and be forever happy (I know, not really an option for a street driven car).
    Check out the 8legs Racing page: https://www.facebook.com/8legsRacing/


  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    I got everything back together a few days before the track event at Autobahn, outside of Chicago. Needless to say, that backordered hose arrived just after I'd reassembled using the generic 10mm ID hose (with an internal spring to avoid kinking). I got the brakes bled and the clutch (what a PITA that is), went out and did three or four full-on ABS stops, then bled the calipers again. I've now had the opportunity to drive a couple of hundred miles each way to the track, plus three days of track use.

    Now the verdict is in, and the verdict is FAIL.

    After more than a grand in parts and materials — booster, master cylinder, hoses, lots of expensive racing brake fluid — my brake pedal still sinks. It may be slightly improved from before, but not by much. With the engine off and hard pressure on the pedal it'll go to the floor in about 30 seconds. With the engine running and full booster vacuum it'll go to the floor in half that time. On street or track I do get fairly effective braking, but with the same required quick double pump.

    So where is that brake fluid going as my pedal sinks? The traditional answer would be that it's leaking past the master cylinder piston seals, but since this is the third master cylinder in the car's lifetime (original plus two brand new replacements) that seems unlikely. The brake booster itself is now brand new. There's no brake fluid leakage anywhere. That seems to leave only one remaining actor: the ABS pump. I see two possible root causes there. One is that there's still air trapped inside that's being compressed by the master cylinder stroke. The other is that, remembering the ABS pump's whole purpose is to bypass fluid pressure from the main brake circuit, there's some leakage past its internal valves.

    I'm not yet in a position to bleed the ABS pump using the bleed nipple on its side, but I can see a couple of potential ways to do this. A fair bit of work is involved. The other option is to replace the ABS pump with the used spare I have on hand, and that involves even more work. It's also quite uncertain in that this ABS pump has been sitting in my garage for at least a decade, and so might be no better than the one I have. Or worse. Or suppose that's not the problem anyway.

    Frustrating!

    Neil
    Dude, my friend had that exact same problem and it WAS the ABS pump. Whatever mechanism inside that should hold pressure was leaking and the fluid would just recirculate.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    One is that there's still air trapped inside that's being compressed by the master cylinder stroke.
    This gets my vote. This exact thing was my root cause.
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    I'm not yet in a position to bleed the ABS pump using the bleed nipple on its side, but I can see a couple of potential ways to do this. A fair bit of work is involved. The other option is to replace the ABS pump with the used spare I have on hand, and that involves even more work.
    I had a friend that replaced the pump and their problem went away. I think it could be related to failing internals or that by swapping parts they then bled it properly and removed the offending air fixing the issue. Swapping the part was just a false positive?
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Frustrating!
    Sorry, dude. I've been there, I know that feel 100%!
    Last edited by golgo13; 05-23-2018 at 08:41 PM.

  16. #166
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    If you're going to swap ABS pumps, might as well go to the Mk60 system. I know once I got air into the lines of my first E36 M3, I was never able to get it back out. Even bleeding it at the dealer and having them activate the ABS pump didn't work.

    Now I'm incredibly vigilant about not running out of fluid when I bleed the system.
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  17. #167
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    I'm posting this here because the general question about brake bleeding technique obviously comes up, and specifically about activating the ABS pump. Like many people I bleed the brakes, go out and perform two or three vigorous ABS stops, then do one more quick bleed. This works OK, but doesn't allow using the bleed nipple on the pump. It would sure be nice to be able to activate the ABS pump and its valves properly in the garage. Unfortunately specialized equipment is needed to do that.

    It turns out that there's now a moderately priced solution for that, the Schwaben Scan Tool for BMW/Mini:


    and it's on sale for $153 (25% off) right now at Turner, see https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ini-scan-tool/ That's a deal, especially considering that a Peake Research scan tool costs almost that much.

    If you look at the instructions here http://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f3..._Scan_Tool.pdf and go to section 6.4 on page 32 you'll see:

    6.4 ABS/Airbag Services
    ABS/Airbag Services menu let you use the scanner temporarily to activate or control anti-lock brake systems and air bags or components.
    Typical test options include:
    • ABS Manual Control Tests–allows to manually control the actuators in order to test ABS motors, solenoids, solenoid enable relays, EMBs, and more.
    • ABS Motor Test–allows to manually control the ABS pump motor.
    • ABS Version Test–displays the name of the brake system and the ABS controller version
    number, software ID, and sequence value.
    • Actuator Tests–allows to manually control the actuators in order to test AYC valves, inlet
    valves, outlet valves, pump motors, and TRACS valves.
    • Auto-bleed Test, Automated Bleed, or Service Bleed - removes air from the internal brake
    fluid chambers after servicing the brakes.

    And of course this device is also a general purpose code scanner as well. So If you're looking for a Father's Day present for yourself, this tool might be no bad idea.

    Disclaimer: No connection to Turner other than as a longtime customer. I have bought one of these for myself, but haven't yet tried out the ABS bleeding function.

    Neil

    EDIT 6/12/18: It appears that the scanner does not recognize or support the E36 ABS controller (see posts 173 & 174 below).
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-12-2018 at 08:39 AM.

  18. #168
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    That's cool, Neil.

    Way easier than using an old laptop with a serial port, 20 pin interfact and INPA. That's how I do it, but it cost me about half the price but a lot more headache getting it set-up lol

  19. #169
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    Nice, i just bought one as well. About time i got a code scanner and the brake bleeding stuff will come in real handy when i do the booster soon.

    What is the procedure for bleeding while cycling the pump and solenoids? Are the actuation and bleeding separate steps or do you bleed while they're cycling?

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBDan View Post
    What is the procedure for bleeding while cycling the pump and solenoids? Are the actuation and bleeding separate steps or do you bleed while they're cycling?
    I've been meaning to do it with the special tests inside of INPA, but everytime I'm connected to the bleeder on the pump everything is disconnected. This is why I'm trying to get my external bleed hard line done.

    That being said, inside of the ABS controls with INPA you can manually actuate the intake and exhaust solenoids. To be honest, I think the exhaust solenoids need to work in concert with the pump cycling which cannot be done individually.

    I tried a few things and I don't think it made much of a difference but I might be doing it wrong. YMMV.

    We found that just connecting a bleed line to the ABS pump (if your pump has one) and doing the two man method worked quite well in getting air out of the ABS pump.

    I recommend a 11mm ratcheting wrench for this job as there's very little space once you get your hand in there.

    This:


  21. #171
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I recommend a 11mm ratcheting wrench for this job as there's very little space once you get your hand in there.

    This:

    Or their XL version, which is almost 10" long in the 11mm size:



    See: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-08-2018 at 01:50 PM.

  22. #172
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    Oh, that's cool. I bet that helps to free up some room so your hand doesn't have to be trapped under the M/C.

  23. #173
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    Bought the scan tool, wasn't able to get to the abs bleed screen. Going to try and contact the vendor tomorrow.

  24. #174
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettett15 View Post
    Bought the scan tool, wasn't able to get to the abs bleed screen. Going to try and contact the vendor tomorrow.
    Tried mine out on my 96 M3 for the first time yesterday after reading this, and confirm the same result, or more exactly, lack of result. Crap, what a disappointment!

    The scanner goes through a process of checking for various categories of controller: ECU, ABS/ASC/DSC, airbag, etc. This takes about 10 minutes, after which it presents a numbered list of those controllers found and their fault status. It did look for ABS, but apparently did not recognize that controller and so did not include it in the final list. Since I could, I tried the scanner both on the OBD2 port and on the BMW round diagnostic port in the engine compartment, but with the same result.

    I haven't yet checked to see whether there's any software update for the scanner, but since the E36 stopped production almost 20 years ago I'm not optimistic about their adding new features for this platform. It appears that the reference to the ABS feature in the scanner instructions was a general one, and does not apply to all makes/models. Out of curiosity I'm going to check my wife's E39 when I get a chance.

    Neil

  25. #175
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    I have a shop owner who tried his new many-thousand-dollar SnapOn diagnostic scanner on my 95 M3. SnapOn documentation show'd my car in the data base. But...Also, no joy.

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