M3 front brakes *do not* fit E36 kingpins

**Bernman** · 05-08-2003, 12:49 AM

...which is what we have all read over the years, but I just had to see it for myself.

The caliper bracket for the M3 has the same bolt spacing, but the mounting location needs to be about .125 to .25 further back to allow the bracket to fit between the mounting location and the brake disc. If I was not in such a hurry, I would have taken a picture of this inequity. I will be sure to document this with photos when I swap out the kingpins...I just have to buy some new wheel bearings first.

So if you want to put M3 calipers on your 32X, you will need to get the kingpins as well. C'est la vie

Bernman

**jonsibal** · 05-08-2003, 01:36 AM

thanks bernman,

Now does it matter if you get the spindles(kingpin) from a 95 or a 97+ M3? I heard theres a difference between the two parts. Is that true? TIA

**Bernman** · 05-08-2003, 02:38 AM

Yes, the 95 and 96+M3 kingpins have different geometry. The 96+ kingpins compensate for the positive camber that the upper strut bearing adds by moving the top of the strut toward the outside of the car. If you use a 96+ kingpin with 95 strut bearings, you should get something close to -2 degrees camber. If you use 95M3 spindles (or standard E36 ones) with 96+ strut bearings *in the reverse positions* (swapped left for right) you will end up with about -2 degrees negative camber. This is the combination that I have, except that I still have the standard E36 spindles installed right now. I realize my explanation is confusing, but late night brain fog is setting in, and I don't have the energy to rewrite it. Maybe tomorrow I will try to clarify...

Jon, I know you must be tired of hearing this, but your car is incredible. Those flares are perfect. Keep up the good work

Butch

**hccyong** · 05-08-2003, 03:20 AM

Hey Butch, when you do have the M and standard kingpins side by side, do you mind making some other measurements, such as with respect to the amount of stub axle/camber change, tie rod pick up locations, etc.? Thanks!

**QuestMCoupe** · 05-08-2003, 08:33 AM

Bernman,
Where can one aquire some M3 kingpins? I have a set of e46 M3 brakes here and I want to bolt them on but I need the e36 M3 kingpins since from what I hear the e36 and e46 M3 brakes are interchangable. Thanks.

**Bernman** · 05-08-2003, 09:36 AM

I absolutely plan on taking measurements of the kingpins. This will prove or disprove another of the "urban legends" that says the geometry is different in some way.

As far as where to buy a set of kingpins, I just got lucky and found someone that was selling his 95M3 set since he was changing to a 96+ set. If you can't find a used pair, you could try www.alexanderbmw.com . I hear they have the best prices of the online dealers. They still won't be cheap, but if you can't wait, then that is an option.

Good luck!
Butch

**Kamil** · 05-08-2003, 09:56 AM

Good stuff... waiting for pics and such.
Is there a website that collects all stores important stuff such as this?
I'll print it out once Bernman is all done.

**scottycs** · 05-08-2003, 10:11 AM

Why not just get 330 calipers. Directly bolt on. They are slighly larger than the M3 brakes, but are not quite as thick. But it is about a 50 mm upgrade from stock 318/325/328 brakes and it is cheap.

**Kamil** · 05-08-2003, 10:18 AM

318/325/328 have all the same brakes?
Thanks.

**bimmer95** · 05-08-2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by Kamil
318/325/328 have all the same brakes?

Yes, other than the pre-4/98 318ti's which came with solid front rotors from the factory.

**scottycs** · 05-08-2003, 10:43 AM

I have a set of 330 calipers if anyone is interested.

**Kamil** · 05-08-2003, 11:07 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one needs 17" wheels to clear the 330 brake/rotor combo, right?
All 330s come w/ 17" rims AFAIK.

**bimmer95** · 05-08-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Kamil
one needs 17" wheels to clear the 330 brake/rotor combo, right?

Correct

**articblue92** · 05-08-2003, 11:56 AM

I am planning on upgrading my brakes here next month and am very curious about this 330 E46 brake swap. I have looked at a ton of big brake kits and M3 swaps but no matter which one I choose it will be more than a grand and everything requires lots of modification. But, if I am reading this right the E46 330 brakes are bigger than standard E36 M3 brakes and are a direct bold on. With the exception of 17" min wheel size. Is this true?

**Kamil** · 05-08-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by scottycs
I have a set of 330 calipers if anyone is interested.

How much are you asking and what is included?
lines? Pads? Brackets?

I assume rotors are not included.

**G. P. Burdell** · 05-08-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by articblue92
I am planning on upgrading my brakes here next month and am very curious about this 330 E46 brake swap. I have looked at a ton of big brake kits and M3 swaps but no matter which one I choose it will be more than a grand and everything requires lots of modification. But, if I am reading this right the E46 330 brakes are bigger than standard E36 M3 brakes and are a direct bold on. With the exception of 17" min wheel size. Is this true?

The 330i front rotors are larger in diameter but slightly thinner than the E36 M3 front rotors.

E46 330i: 325mm x 25mm
E36 M3: 315mm x 28mm

And yes, the 330i front calipers and brackets are a direct bolt on.

**Baby ///M3** · 05-08-2003, 07:09 PM

Thanks for the write up.

Is strut bearing same as strut hat?

I have a 325is with a pair of 97 328 strut hats on Koni struts. I just bought a set of M3 front brakes that came from a 97' M3. According to your explanations, everything should fit okay with any camber problems, right?

Looks like I would have to get the brake swap done as soon as I can because I am still running my stock 325is front brakes on these 97 strut hats. That would give me a negative camber reading up front, correct?

Jon

Originally posted by Bernman
Yes, the 95 and 96+M3 kingpins have different geometry. The 96+ kingpins compensate for the positive camber that the upper strut bearing adds by moving the top of the strut toward the outside of the car. If you use a 96+ kingpin with 95 strut bearings, you should get something close to -2 degrees camber. If you use 95M3 spindles (or standard E36 ones) with 96+ strut bearings *in the reverse positions* (swapped left for right) you will end up with about -2 degrees negative camber. This is the combination that I have, except that I still have the standard E36 spindles installed right now. I realize my explanation is confusing, but late night brain fog is setting in, and I don't have the energy to rewrite it. Maybe tomorrow I will try to clarify...

Jon, I know you must be tired of hearing this, but your car is incredible. Those flares are perfect. Keep up the good work

Butch

**hccyong** · 05-08-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Baby ///M3
Thanks for the write up.

Is strut bearing same as strut hat?

I have a 325is with a pair of 97 328 strut hats on Koni struts. I just bought a set of M3 front brakes that came from a 97' M3. According to your explanations, everything should fit okay with any camber problems, right?

Looks like I would have to get the brake swap done as soon as I can because I am still running my stock 325is front brakes on these 97 strut hats. That would give me a negative camber reading up front, correct?

Jon

You are correct that strut bearing = strut hat.

However, the strut bearing has nothing to do with the brakes. You still need the M kingpin (aka steering knuckle) to get the M brakes onto your car.

**Baby ///M3** · 05-08-2003, 07:18 PM

Oh, I know.

My question was, since I am using 97 328 strut hats right now, does it mean that I would be getting negative cambers according to Bernman's analysis?

Also, since I just bought a set of M3 front brake with kingpin, calipers, carriers from a 97' M3, does it mean that my negative camber problem has now been solved once I install the M3 brake?

Thanks.

Jon

Originally posted by hccyong
You are correct that strut bearing = strut hat.

However, the strut bearing has nothing to do with the brakes. You still need the M kingpin (aka steering knuckle) to get the M brakes onto your car.

**hccyong** · 05-08-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Baby ///M3
Oh, I know.

My question was, since I am using 97 328 strut hats right now, does it mean that I would be getting negative cambers according to Bernman's analysis?

Also, since I just bought a set of M3 front brake with kingpin, calipers, carriers from a 97' M3, does it mean that my negative camber problem has now been solved once I install the M3 brake?

Thanks.

Jon

Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you are using non-M strut hats and put on M3 brakes (including kingpins of course), then you should get additional negative camber. Exactly how much more, I do not know. If you do install it that way, please let us know how much more negative camber you end up getting, as I have been trying to find out that info too. Thanks. Sorry, I'm not familiar with your particular "negative camber problem."

**Baby ///M3** · 05-08-2003, 07:27 PM

No problem!

I thought 97' 328 strut hats would be similar to 96+ M3 strut hats, thus applicable to Bernman's write up in terms of having negative cambers.

I don't know too much about this either. Let's see if Bernman can shed some lights when he comes back later.

Jon

Originally posted by hccyong
Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you are using non-M strut hats and put on M3 brakes (including kingpins of course), then you should get additional negative camber. Exactly how much more, I do not know. If you do install it that way, please let us know how much more negative camber you end up getting, as I have been trying to find out that info too. Thanks. Sorry, I'm not familiar with your particular "negative camber problem."

**hccyong** · 05-08-2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Baby ///M3
No problem!

I thought 97' 328 strut hats would be similar to 96+ M3 strut hats, thus applicable to Bernman's write up in terms of having negative cambers.

I don't know too much about this either. Let's see if Bernman can shed some lights when he comes back later.

Jon

The 97 328 hats are the same as the rest of the non-M hats.

To clarify, compared to these non-M hats, 95 M3 hats add caster and but do no change to camber.

Compared again to non-M hats, 96 M3 hats add caster and move camber more positive when installed in the original orientation. In the left-right swapped orientation, it still adds caster but moves camber more negative.

**Baby ///M3** · 05-08-2003, 07:35 PM

So I guess with my current setup (97' hats and stock 325is brakes), I should have a neutral caster/camber setup.

The only question left is, how would my caster/camber be changed once I get these 97' M3 front brakes on my car.......

Thanks for the clarification.

Jon

Originally posted by hccyong
The 97 328 hats are the same as the rest of the non-M hats.

To clarify, compared to these non-M hats, 95 M3 hats add caster and but do no change to camber.

Compared again to non-M hats, 96 M3 hats add caster and move camber more positive when installed in the original orientation. In the left-right swapped orientation, it still adds caster but moves camber more negative.

**Kamil** · 05-08-2003, 09:25 PM

How big are front rotors of my '94 318iS?

I also assume that those are single pistion calipers.
What kind of calipers are on the 330i and M3?

So far I'm tempted to go w/ the 330 calipers as they're direct bolt-on and therefore probably cheaper and are also larger in size.

No matter which one I go with, I'll need 17" wheels/tires which I currently don't NEED and I rather repair/replace the things I need... but it is nice to start gathering the information.

Thanks,
-Kamil

**MojoMoto** · 05-08-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by hccyong
The 97 328 hats are the same as the rest of the non-M hats.

To clarify, compared to these non-M hats, 95 M3 hats add caster and but do no change to camber.

Compared again to non-M hats, 96 M3 hats add caster and move camber more positive when installed in the original orientation. In the left-right swapped orientation, it still adds caster but moves camber more negative.

How would the use of offset vs. concentric bushings affect these configurations?

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