Dinan SC'd M3 with M50 Manifold??

**RDM3** · 05-02-2003, 10:14 PM

I have a 97 Dinan SC'd M3, I had been considering the Schrick Manifold update package from Dinan. I have a local BMW tuner who can get all the parts at a discount, my question is what would the effects be to install this:

95 M3 M50 Manifold, Dinan Big Throttle Body, Dinan HFM with Dinan fuel pressure regulator? The local tuner who can get the parts cant do the software dl, but I would contact the local Dinan rep and ask if they would do it, even tho I'm not using the Schrick manifold. If Dinan won't do it there is another local tuner who may do it.

Any ideas of what HP gains I would see?

Rob

**paul e** · 05-02-2003, 10:44 PM

The real question is, how much power will it get you, and how much will it cost. Thats always the question you need to ask and then come up with a doller per HP ratio. Let that be your guide. By the way, for this ratio to make any sense for you at all, you need to really 'know' what hp can be expected. and I dont mean what Dinan tells you. The problem with this upgrade is getting dyno verification. Its going to be hard because there arent many of them to learn from. My hunch is that it will cost you near or over $3000, while the return is probably less than 25-30 hp. But you should find out for yourself

**JLee** · 05-02-2003, 11:18 PM

i thinks www.eurospeedperformance.com did a project like this

and i think the article in on their website

jeff

**RDM3** · 05-02-2003, 11:37 PM

I estimate the cost for the parts and labor to be about $1400. I have a local BMW tuner who can get me the parts at a discount. Then throw in the SW dl at dinan for like $400 for a total of about $1800. I don't know what hp will be gained tho. I would have it dyno'd after the install.

Rob

**M3TurboCa** · 05-03-2003, 09:24 AM

If the cost is around $1800.00 I think it is well worth the money spent.

You should as someone said pickup a good 25-40hp depending on the boost you are running.

You might find that you are a psi lower as it will take more air to fill the 95 manifold.

The results should be more power in the midrange all the way to to redline.

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 09:41 AM

If I did lose a psi, could you use smaller or larger, whatever it would be, pulley to raise it up again without having to change the software?

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 10:15 AM

>> estimate the cost for the parts and labor to be about $1400. I have a local BMW tuner who can get me the parts at a discount. Then throw in the SW dl at dinan for like $400 for a total of about $1800.<<

I did some investigating of this, and my findings were that youre way off. They wanted something like $1500 just for the Shrick Manfold alone! although, they will sell you the kit without it, and have you souce it on your own if you want. If you have somebody to get you the parts at a big discount, youre way ahead of the game. But still, get some confirmation of the power to be gained.

>>and i think the article in on their website<<

All I saw there was an M50 manfold conversion, combined with ported/polished cylinder head, and cams and some other stuff. No supercharger and different software. The cams makes it difficult to draw a comparison.

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 10:19 AM

The $1400 figure was using the M50 manifold, sorry if there was confusion. Using a Schrick manifold it came to $1977 labor and parts, and then i would have to get the software download. As far as finding out what power is to be gained it seems no one has done this yet, and Dinan claims 30 hp. Maybe I will be the test for this.

Rob

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 01:22 PM

>>Maybe I will be the test for this<<

Id love to see your results if you do it. Personally, Id be extremely surprised at anything over 25 rwhp on a dynojet. But thats not to say its not worth it.

Ive gained at least 50 rwhp from a 3 psi pulley bump supported by water/methanol injection (see dyno plot on sig line). Depending on your results, Im wondering whether that upgrade, on top of my advanced boost would make any sense. My feeling, though, is that Im already pretty near the operating edge with my existing hardware, and anything that is likely to increase the flow may be causing me trouble. Of course, there is the possibility that increasing the HFM by using the one in the upgrade kit may be just the ticket, seeing as the stock HFM is going flatline near 5800 rpms with my current boost level. Provided the injectors can handle it. If not, there's always a rrfpr that can be applied over the final 1000 rpms if needed.

But then, perhaps a FMIC for similar money might make more sense. HOw bout Both?!! Unfortunately, without ready access to a dyno and a tuner with a piggyback willing to do the work, and cash, it will never get resolved :--(

**gerry_miranda** · 05-03-2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by paul e
>>
All I saw there was an M50 manfold conversion, combined with ported/polished cylinder head, and cams and some other stuff. No supercharger and different software. The cams makes it difficult to draw a comparison.

Here you go...

http://www.eurospeedperformance.com/...es/paulsm3.htm

funny its also Pauls M3

**Ali** · 05-03-2003, 03:16 PM

My bro has this setup...it's called the stage 5 setup...He has had problems from day one....His head got all messed up and he had to fix a bunch of stuff...Now that the car is back and running it is throwing all kinds of random CELs and they come and go..most of them are for different sensors that have been replaced over and over but have not fixed the CEL..I believe the stage 5 sw sucks..it is not tuned well at all. Now we are starting to doubt that they even gave us the right sw.

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 04:22 PM

Looking at that writeup, it looks like the M50 manifold is a good thing to swap, I may just have the shop do that and see how it is and decide if I want to do the HFM or TB.

Thanks!!
Rob

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 05:15 PM

>>funny its also Pauls M3<<

Must be a different Paul! Anyway those are impressive numbers. Im not sure why we cant compare torque, but it says not to on a dynapack!! Too bad we cant compare torque numbers, according to the text on the page.. Because, it was torque gain which was the reason the engineers gave us the S52 manifold to begin with. Id sure hate to lose that torque by going back to the S50 manifold. Question about the plots... I always have trouble reading those dynopack results anyway. For instance, they say 'Flywheel Power' and 'Flywheel ft lbs', etc. Why do they say Flywheel? Isnt this rwhp power and torque?? Judging by the results from 280 to 300 hp, those coincide very well with most Dynojet runs for Dinan SC cars.

>>throwing all kinds of random CELs and they come and go<<

I would imagine those are related to issues with the specific installation, and not related to the manifold swap in general. Although, I hear it can be tricky because sensor locations are quite different, or not existant in some cases with S50 manifold!

Also, AA software had been installed on the Dinan car. It would be nice to find some numbers with Dinan software and comparing the two manifolds. Perhaps we could forget about the whole Dinan stage 5 package, including the hfm, manifold, tb, and software, and just go for the OBDI manifold, and expect to see up to 30 rwhp gains! If so, and if the manifold can be had for like 500 bucks or less, then the dollars per HP ratio is pretty nice, at like $17 per! I might have to look into this. Keep my 11 psi, water injection, and current Dinan software. Just swap manifolds. But, I want to see some torque comparos first, and I want to see results with Dinan, not AA software..

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 05:19 PM

That M50 swap on eurospeed was using AA programming.

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 05:50 PM

A couple other things should be noted. First, the 30 hp diff occurred at 6K rpms. But the peak difference at redline is down to about 22 hp.

Also, its interesting what happens when a little bit of cooling is applied to the SC on the S52 car. 15 minutes of ice on the SC, and the S52 posts as good HP numbers as does the S50. Wonder what the S50 numbers would look like with some cooling!

Thanks for posting that site. I went to the site yesterday, and it wasnt featured. Guess you had to know the exact link.

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 05:57 PM

Hey no problem. I wonder if you used the M50 manifold with a front mount cooler how the #'s would turn out?

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 06:05 PM

>>Hey no problem. I wonder if you used the M50 manifold with a front mount cooler how the #'s would turn out? <<

Actually, isnt it the S50, not the M50? The S50 and S52 were the two M3s. The M numbers were for the 325 and 328. Anyway, cooling is good for everybody. The S52 doesnt have a monopoly on that. I wonder why it says we cant compare the torque readings. If you decide to do the upgrade, whether its the manifold by itself, or with the sTage 5 kit, make sure to get some before and after Dyno results. Also, you might want to try the pulley bump and water/meth injection. If it works out for you as well as it has for me, you just might forget all about the manifold upgrade :--) !

**RDM3** · 05-03-2003, 06:24 PM

I will see if I can get dyno's before and after, it all depends on if the guy is busy, plus its $80 a shot, so I am at $160 for before and after.

Rob

**stimpee** · 05-03-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by paul e
>>Hey no problem. I wonder if you used the M50 manifold with a front mount cooler how the #'s would turn out? <<

Actually, isnt it the S50, not the M50? The S50 and S52 were the two M3s. The M numbers were for the 325 and 328. Anyway, cooling is good for everybody. The S52 doesnt have a monopoly on that. I wonder why it says we cant compare the torque readings. If you decide to do the upgrade, whether its the manifold by itself, or with the sTage 5 kit, make sure to get some before and after Dyno results. Also, you might want to try the pulley bump and water/meth injection. If it works out for you as well as it has for me, you just might forget all about the manifold upgrade :--) !

Manifold for the S50 and M50 are identical...

Steve

**paul e** · 05-03-2003, 06:47 PM

>>so I am at $160 for before and after<<

Dont look at it that way...Look at it like this: If you DONT get dyno done before and after, then how the hell do you know if it was worth it? Believe me, you cant go by seat of the pants on this stuff. The only way to prove out your investment is on the dyno.

>>Manifold for the S50 and M50 are identical...<<

And stefe is the S52 and the M52 identical too?

**stimpee** · 05-03-2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by paul e
>>so I am at $160 for before and after<<

Dont look at it that way...Look at it like this: If you DONT get dyno done before and after, then how the hell do you know if it was worth it? Believe me, you cant go by seat of the pants on this stuff. The only way to prove out your investment is on the dyno.

>>Manifold for the S50 and M50 are identical...<<

And stefe is the S52 and the M52 identical too?

Hmmm, who the heck is "Stefe"?

Anyway, yes, the M/S52 manifolds are identical as well as far as I know....

SteVe

**zenon** · 05-03-2003, 08:25 PM

pauk just has fat finbers stebe

**NoSoup4U** · 05-03-2003, 08:58 PM

M50 manifold is cheaper as well than the S50 for some reason.

**gerry_miranda** · 05-04-2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by paul e

Also, its interesting what happens when a little bit of cooling is applied to the SC on the S52 car. 15 minutes of ice on the SC, and the S52 posts as good HP numbers as does the S50. Wonder what the S50 numbers would look like with some cooling!

The cold S52 is not just as good....its better....
20 ft lbs of tq advantage till 4800rpm
5 ft lbs adv till 5500 rpm
and only looses 10 ft lbs to the s50 manifold above 5800 rpm...

hmmmmm

**paul e** · 05-04-2003, 10:58 AM

>>20 ft lbs of tq advantage till 4800rpm<<

But why does it say on that site that we should NOT be comparing torque differences between the runs:

"*** Important! Keep in mind that torque cannot be directly compared to each other. Dynapacks measure the amount of torque created at that very instant and does not correct it for atmospheric conditions."

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Dinan SC'd M3 with M50 Manifold??

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