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Thread: ARP Main stud issues

  1. #26
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    ARP told me I could leave out the washers or back the studs out a little. I also consulted my machinest who builds a lot of high performance engines. I gave him the dimensions of the stud including the thread length, how much the stud needed to be backed out from the bottom of the hole and he said there was far more thread then needed in the block. His comment was to use the allen at the top of the stud to adjust the height of the stud to match the top of the nut. He says he has to do that on quite a few engines (many different makes) using studs and it has never been an issue. Since this guy has forgotten more about engine building then I will probably ever know, I went with his suggestion. He has never steered me wrong before.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    Carl the holes should be chased and cleaned thoroughly and bottoming the studs is what ensures proper torque specs. ARP/my machinist both say that running the washer is no big deal. The OEM bolts cannot be compared to the studs when talking about bottoming out. If you bottomed out a bolt you'd not be able to achieve the torque.
    oh dont get me wrong i chased mine even after my engine guy said he did, i just said that because someone had mentioned different bore depths..

  3. #28
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    If the ARP was a bolt we wouldn't have to worry about it. What happens to a stud that isn't bottomed out is pretty easy to picture. If its not bottomed, you torque the nut - there is friction on the nut. Once that friction is high enough (probably nearest the torque value), the whole assembly will want to compress and turn in the block. This will not torque the stud appropriately and will throw off your torque reading. If the stud is allowed to move down into the threaded hole, that means your reading will be off/wrong. Putting an insert in the hole, or bottoming out the studs, will be the only way of torquing the fastener properly.

    ? You torque the nut no matter what. There is always friction on the nut? I don't get what you are saying here. You also compress the assembly no matter. Torque is torque. 65ft/lbs is 65ft/lbs.

    I don't know what you are saying. It's like saying 65ft/lbs of torque on a bolt is different than 65ft/lbs of torque on a stud. It's not. Please explain!!

    For example, you could use the allen hole to secure the stud while you torque???

    Don

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcvee View Post
    For example, you could use the allen hole to secure the stud while you torque???

    Don
    with the allen key in the stud and you finger tighten the cap, when torqued down the stud wont move.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by s52e368 View Post
    with the allen key in the stud and you finger tighten the cap, when torqued down the stud wont move.
    exactly...which is why it makes no difference.

    Don

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Lang View Post
    Both of you guys, very interested to know if the basis for your particular build was an S50 block!
    Sorry - was in a meeting I got your pm - my block started out as an M50 block. The studs were still too short to use the washers - my machinist is running studs bottomed with no washers.


  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcvee View Post
    exactly...which is why it makes no difference.

    Don
    My mistake I don't know what I was thinking - I forgot how new studs should just thread down. It'd only pose a problem if reusing and the threads stretched at all.


    I just think its a better idea to not use the washer - the head flange of the nut is literally the same size of the washer - they're both hardened, so they're both going to press down on the surface equally. The washer slipping on the cap or nut slipping on the washer is going to create friction necessitating the moly lube, so I wonder if ARP includes washers for the sake of including them or what. They can't hurt, but I am convinced they're not necessary.


  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    My mistake I don't know what I was thinking - I forgot how new studs should just thread down. It'd only pose a problem if reusing and the threads stretched at all.


    I just think its a better idea to not use the washer - the head flange of the nut is literally the same size of the washer - they're both hardened, so they're both going to press down on the surface equally. The washer slipping on the cap or nut slipping on the washer is going to create friction necessitating the moly lube, so I wonder if ARP includes washers for the sake of including them or what. They can't hurt, but I am convinced they're not necessary.
    I can see both sides. I think it's a coin-toss!! I'd use the washers tho...but I doubt it would make much difference either way.

    Don

  10. #35
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    ya know i honestly don't see the real benefit from using the ARP main studs anyway. what is the real benefit?
    do you even know what a plethora is?

  11. #36
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    higher grade stud, re-useable, havent delt with my bmw block yet, but studs > bolts im assuming bmw stock used bolts

    from what i was told you dont NEED to bottom out the stud, you actually want the stud to push and pull if you know what i mean

    i've also heard of people putting ball bearings down in the hole

    last time i used arp's (aluminum honda block) i got nervous because the last few torque downs i seen the stud turning not the nut.. i was going 10+ ftlbs over what my manual said which is common from honda-guys i know of.

    motor held 12psi beaten daily with a $45 fel-pro mls head gasket so i guess it was ok. on top of that i used a used head on a used block from differnt years and didnt resurface either. maybe i got lucky lol ahh good old days, cheap hondas


    side note, maybe arp inlcudes washers for the simple fact its probly easier to remove the nuts when needed?
    Last edited by 7808; 02-26-2008 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7808 View Post
    higher grade stud, re-useable,
    i have never heard of a stock one failing and you can buy like 7 sets of stockers before you get to the price of the ARP's..
    do you even know what a plethora is?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ///M3 CRAZY View Post
    ya know i honestly don't see the real benefit from using the ARP main studs anyway. what is the real benefit?
    I actually think the factory bolts are a better way to go with the mains. I feel this way because of the tightening specs listed from BMW vs ARP. Ft/lbs vs Torque angle.

    We'll see if anyone else agrees....if they do, I'll state my reason why.

    Don

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7808 View Post
    higher grade stud, re-useable, havent delt with my bmw block yet, but studs > bolts im assuming bmw stock used bolts

    from what i was told you dont NEED to bottom out the stud, you actually want the stud to push and pull if you know what i mean

    i've also heard of people putting ball bearings down in the hole

    last time i used arp's (aluminum honda block) i got nervous because the last few torque downs i seen the stud turning not the nut.. i was going 10+ ftlbs over what my manual said which is common from honda-guys i know of.

    motor held 12psi beaten daily so i guess it was ok. on top of that i used a used head on a used block from differnt years and didnt resurface either. maybe i got lucky lol
    Didn't think of the reuseable reason...you are correct. But I don't know about being a "better" fastener.

    Don

  15. #40
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    Reviving this thread! I want to know what the consensus is now. The way I see it main bolts now cost $103 and ARP studs are $130 0n sale through ecs tuning. The way I see it you can back the studs out 5mm and use the washers except where the oil pickup brackets are located, or bottom them out and not use the washers but back out the studs that hold the brackets. I also read somewhere that when running the arp main studs you need to torque it and have it honed which at this point I am not going to do. I am using a M52 block for a 3.0 stroker. The main reasons I am considering the ARP's is because I want to be able to reuse them, they are so close in price, and also hope to run boost down the road.

  16. #41
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  17. #42
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    Baffle delete. S54 pan and pump going in.

  18. #43
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    just put the studs in my new motor and i can confirm (as i contacted ARP) you back the stud out so that it is flush with the washer and nut on. Worked fine and the motor has been running great.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeE36325 View Post
    Baffle delete. S54 pan and pump going in.
    I'm hearing about this more often.
    What is different/better about the S54 pump?


  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by milKt View Post
    I'm hearing about this more often.
    What is different/better about the S54 pump?
    It has dual pick ups, front / rear and I believe the pan has a built in baffle. I'm not entirely sure though.

  21. #46
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    Yes the dual pick ups and there are a front and rear sump. It also has extra holes so running a turbo drain would be easier. Increased oil pressure as well from what I have read. But the biggest reason I bought it was I don't have a spare oil pan and the pan and pump were $400 much better then getting my m50 pump rebuilt. It's got around 60k on it so I think it'll last awhile.

  22. #47
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    Does anyone know the specs on these studs? I have a 3 cylinder diesel pulling tractor and these are the studs i need.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDhorner View Post
    Does anyone know the specs on these studs? I have a 3 cylinder diesel pulling tractor and these are the studs i need.
    Does this help?

    https://arpinstructions.com/instructions/201-5000.pdf

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcvee View Post
    ? You torque the nut no matter what. There is always friction on the nut? I don't get what you are saying here. You also compress the assembly no matter. Torque is torque. 65ft/lbs is 65ft/lbs.

    I don't know what you are saying. It's like saying 65ft/lbs of torque on a bolt is different than 65ft/lbs of torque on a stud. It's not. Please explain!!

    For example, you could use the allen hole to secure the stud while you torque???

    Don
    One issue I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that the ARP stud always has a fine thread on the nut end, as opposed to the coarse thread that goes into the block. For that reason the slope of the thread is much flatter on the nut end, so you are not likely to be able to significantly turn the stud in the block.

    There's also the matter that the same thread difference causes a difference in the clamping force for a given torque value. As an example, an engine I have worked on was available with bolts holding the heads until the last few years when the manufacturer switched to studs. The blocks were machined the same with coarse threads, but the studs had fine threads for the nuts. The factory spec for bolts was 75 lb/ft, but the spec for the studs was 55 lb/ft, roughly 25% less. The clamping force was identical for both. So if you install ARP studs and torque them to the same value, the clamping force is over a third higher! You might want to be sure you aren't distorting the main caps with them torqued down that way.

    Marty

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyBtoo View Post
    You might want to be sure you aren't distorting the main caps with them torqued down that way.

    Marty
    Yeah, ideally you want the same fasteners and torque specs that the block was machined at (head studs torqued while boring, main caps torqued while honing). My engine builder lost his mind and vanished so when I rebuilt the engine last winter, I didn't have any references but the mains were changed to 11mm. I found the ARP part number and they were for a Chrysler application and spec'ed at 75 or 80 ft lbs I forget. I tried torquing to that and bore gaged the mains, they ovalled like mad - I would have had like 8 tenths of clearance. I ended up around 60 ft lbs where the main bores stayed round.

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