What oil meets BMW Spec's? What oil should I run?

[ViolinARC]

Even though it was tested by an independent lab, the test was basically requested by Amsoil. Amsoil is the only company (plus RP, I think) that still uses the results of this test in their marketing materials. Many scientists claim that the 4-ball wear test does not properly reflect the conditions in an actual car engine.

Not saying that it's wrong, but basically every oil company has their own battery of tests on which their products excel and those are the tests that they push in front of the customer. Recently Castrol was pushing a message (during superbowl ads) that their Edge results in 8x less wear compared to Mobil1 using IVA testing sequence.

Nevertheless, Amsoil does really well on a lot of those tests. Here's a more recent and more complete document of theirs:
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1971.pdf

Thanks for the updated link (I was just posting the quickie chart for effect) and for the backup...BTW, don't all companies conduct or request their own tests for their products?!?! Of course they're only gonna post the results if it makes their product look good and if the opposite occurs, we never see the final results...agreed?

IMO, applying equal pressure and heat to bearings while using different lubricants and then measuring wear seems pretty scientific to me even though it may not precisely duplicate the conditions of an internal combustion engine...and then there are all the other tests applied equally across the board! Still appears unbiased to me...

[quattro PETE]

BTW, don't all companies conduct or request their own tests for their products?!?! Of course they're only gonna post the results if it makes their product look good and if the opposite occurs, we never see the final results...agreed?

That is basically what I wrote above.

[NNY528I]

Thanks for the updated link (I was just posting the quickie chart for effect) and for the backup...BTW, don't all companies conduct or request their own tests for their products?!?! Of course they're only gonna post the results if it makes their product look good and if the opposite occurs, we never see the final results...agreed?

IMO, applying equal pressure and heat to bearings while using different lubricants and then measuring wear seems pretty scientific to me even though it may not precisely duplicate the conditions of an internal combustion engine...and then there are all the other tests applied equally across the board! Still appears unbiased to me...

Did they use a new bearing for every test? Was the bearing allowed to fully cool between runs? how many trails did they run for each oil? Do the conditions of the test accurately reflect the operating environment(i.e. did they overload the bearing far beyond the forces normally encountered in an engine)? Was the same time frame used for each test? does the time used represent a realistic test of the oils capacity or did the failures occur outside the design specs for the oil?

Its really easy to make the data look favorable for one product over others. It is really quite challenging to design a proper experiment that accurately evaluates the performance of a lubricant at its designed operating conditions.

[ViolinARC]

Did they use a new bearing for every test? Was the bearing allowed to fully cool between runs? how many trails did they run for each oil? Do the conditions of the test accurately reflect the operating environment(i.e. did they overload the bearing far beyond the forces normally encountered in an engine)? Was the same time frame used for each test? does the time used represent a realistic test of the oils capacity or did the failures occur outside the design specs for the oil?

Its really easy to make the data look favorable for one product over others. It is really quite challenging to design a proper experiment that accurately evaluates the performance of a lubricant at its designed operating conditions.

I'm sure they'd be happy to provide you with all the spec sheets you can handle if you ask for them but I didn't personally administer the tests so I can't answer those questions. Those kind of claims against the products of other manufacturers usually end in lawsuits when fabricated falsely and I don't see anything to that effect when searching the web and Amsoil has been around a LOOOONG time. I did notice that Royal Purple is/has been sued for their claims, which backs me up on mine. Also noticed that zMax was sued and WON their lawsuit cause they were able to back up ALL of their claims for their micro-lubricant. If you really want more info about Amsoil or to prove someone wrong, why don't you email them, request the info you speak of and share the info with the rest of us wanna be mechanics/oil experts (I saw your vids of the suspension replacement...NICE!)...

Peace...

[jnyost]

Ever since Amsoil cured my truck of consuming transmissions, I've been sold on it. I have it in everything I own. Now with that said, I still take all tests with a grain of salt.

Yes, the bearings are new each time. ASTM test require it. They take 4 ball bearings. Sit three down and put the fourth on top. Spin it at a certain speed, at a certain temperature, with a certain force. This test was developed as a baseline to test all oils against.

[NNY528I]

Ever since Amsoil cured my truck of consuming transmissions, I've been sold on it. I have it in everything I own. Now with that said, I still take all tests with a grain of salt.

Yes, the bearings are new each time. ASTM test require it. They take 4 ball bearings. Sit three down and put the fourth on top. Spin it at a certain speed, at a certain temperature, with a certain force. This test was developed as a baseline to test all oils against.

And it is run at a temperature considerably higher than normal engine operating temperatures and for a considerably longer time Also the pressure that is used is VERY high, such forces are not encountered in the bearings of an engine which operate under hydrostatic pressure, not direct pressure, normally direct pressure applications utilize some form of grease or heavy gear oil compared to the thin pumpable oils used in engines. Just because an oil performs well in this test does not mean it is well suited to the application. a 50 weight oil or a gear lube would probably do very well in this test, but would be far to thick for use in most automobile engines.

The questions I asked before were all audit type questions that one would want to investigate to ensure that the test results were in fact comparable, if this was a raw lab report it would be one thing but this is an advertisers summary of results thus the questions are valid to determine the comparability of the results reported.

[jnyost]

And it is run at a temperature considerably higher than normal engine operating temperatures and for a considerably longer time Also the pressure that is used is VERY high, such forces are not encountered in the bearings of an engine which operate under hydrostatic pressure, not direct pressure, normally direct pressure applications utilize some form of grease or heavy gear oil compared to the thin pumpable oils used in engines. Just because an oil performs well in this test does not mean it is well suited to the application. a 50 weight oil or a gear lube would probably do very well in this test, but would be far to thick for use in most automobile engines.

The questions I asked before were all audit type questions that one would want to investigate to ensure that the test results were in fact comparable, if this was a raw lab report it would be one thing but this is an advertisers summary of results thus the questions are valid to determine the comparability of the results reported.

The test was developed as a way to test oil, not to simulate an engine. ASTM has written the standards and ALL oil manufacturers use this method to test their own oils even when not comparing themselves to other oils.

[quattro PETE]

The test was developed as a way to test oil, not to simulate an engine. ASTM has written the standards and ALL oil manufacturers use this method to test their own oils even when not comparing themselves to other oils.

The test (specs of which can be purchased here) is a de facto industry standard; however, it was initially developed to test greases and thick gear oils. That is why a lot of engine oil manufacturers do not use it because its applicability to modern engine oil is questionable at best.

Like I wrote earlier, it's just one test, and doesn't tell the whole story.

[jnyost]

No one test has the ability to show how oils will perform in every application. The 4-ball wear test is widely accepted and published on most tech sheets. You can get this data from Mobil, Castrol, etc for their oils too.

[BKphoto]

anyway, can someone tell me of a mobile 1 oil related engine failure...

all i know is my 2 german ladies purrrrr like kittens with M1 0w-40 pumping through their veins...

[quattro PETE]

anyway, can someone tell me of a mobile 1 oil related engine failure...

all i know is my 2 german ladies purrrrr like kittens with M1 0w-40 pumping through their veins...

All the UOAs I've seen on this oil tend to confirm that it is in fact a capable oil. Sometimes it thins out to a 30-grade, however, it does not seem to affect engine wear. I used it in my old A4 1.8T without issues. The GC 0w-30 seems to deliver slightly better wear numbers; however, we are getting into the splitting hairs territory. As long as you administer reasonable oil change intervals, you shouldn't have a problem with either one.

[jnyost]

Agree with Pete. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any oil where you could "blame" for an engine failure. You'd have to do long term analysis and show excessive wear over time. If anyone is doing UOA and see higher wear numbers, they either change oils or shorten up the interval.

[mcdonaldb]

Thought i would post this for any mobil 1 people:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...fer_Terms.aspx

Just noticed the list of retailers, ive never heard of any of these, so not sure if this will help too many.

[AustinPit]

Can someone clarify if the new Castrol Edge meets BMW specs.

Thanks

[jnyost]

If it doesn't say BMW-LL on the back then it doesn't. I'd be VERY surprised if it did.

[AustinPit]

If it doesn't say BMW-LL on the back then it doesn't. I'd be VERY surprised if it did.

ok thnks Jared. I just ordered new brake pads and filter from you

[deathwarden5]

It's odd though that the dealership sells Castrol Edge, even though BMW-LLxx isn't listed on the back.

[AustinPit]

It's odd though that the dealership sells Castrol Edge, even though BMW-LLxx isn't listed on the back.

That just makes if more confusing I dont know if I should try it or not.

[quattro PETE]

It's odd though that the dealership sells Castrol Edge, even though BMW-LLxx isn't listed on the back.

The stuff that your dealer sells is probably different Edge. I'm guessing it's the 0w-40 grade?

The Edge sold in the stores in the US comes in only two grades: 5w-30 and 10w-30, and neither of these meets LL01 spec, not even ACEA A3.

[deathwarden5]

The stuff that your dealer sells is probably different Edge. I'm guessing it's the 0w-40 grade?

The Edge sold in the stores in the US comes in only two grades: 5w-30 and 10w-30, and neither of these meets LL01 spec, not even ACEA A3.

It was a 5w-30. Sits right between the BMW 5w-30 and the TWS.

[DuffmanE39]

Shouldn't Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 be changed to Valvoline Synpower MST 5w-30? The regular Synpower 5w-30 doesn't even meet the ACEA A3/B3 spec.

[quattro PETE]

It was a 5w-30. Sits right between the BMW 5w-30 and the TWS.

Was it "made in USA" or "made in EU"?

Shouldn't Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 be changed to Valvoline Synpower MST 5w-30? The regular Synpower 5w-30 doesn't even meet the ACEA A3/B3 spec.

Yup.

By the way, where can you find MST 5w-30? I have yet to see it at local stores...

[DuffmanE39]

Yup.

By the way, where can you find MST 5w-30? I have yet to see it at local stores...

I've heard that it's only sold in bulk.

Valvoline Max-Life Full Synthetic meets the ACEA A3 spec though. I think it used to say BMW LL-01, but then they removed it. :

[deathwarden5]

Was it "made in USA" or "made in EU"?

I can't remember. I remember reading the back, and it has all the spec stuff, and I know BMW-Lxx was definitely not listed on the back.

I'm going to the dealership tomorrow. Time for an oil change soon, so gotta get a filter. I'll look again.

[ajlounia]

Wait, so I shouldn't go with Mobile1 0-W40? I'm tired of paying $90 at the stealer to get my oil changed. I plan on doing this one myself though.