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Thread: v2.0 413 Tuning thread

  1. #76
    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    There is already a table of addresses in the 413. It is very easy to use. There is your "find all the maps". you will also quickly realize that theres a lot more to it than just finding the maps. Making a map finding utility could be nice if it were packaged with a reasonably intelligent editor. It is, however, completely unnecessary for anyone using tunerpro. You need to manually enter everything anyway.
    Michael McCoy TRM

  2. #77
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    Here is a quote from JimC. How many of these maps are in xdf's? How many do we need? What kind of conversion is needed for the data and axes (sp?)? [somewhat rhetorical btw] Note the "basic injection time" aka injector latency; also the vanos actuation tables. Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Conforti View Post
    IN alphabetical order, and intentionally obfuscated from the order
    they appear in the MS41 control unit, here are just a few of the
    tables that are needed to properly tune something on an E36
    OBD-II car.

    % of ICV MAF to use
    Air Density Divisor for CALC_TEST_MAF
    Base ICV (A/C)
    Base ICV (Drive & A/C)
    Base ICV (Drive)
    Base ICV (nom.)
    Basic Ignition Advance 1
    Basic Ignition Advance 2
    Basic Injection Time
    Basic TI_MAF_AE
    Basic TI_TPS_AE
    Calculated Kat Temp
    Catalyst Protection Enrichment Correction for Ti
    Coldstart Enrichment Deactivation Factor
    Coldstart Enrichment Restart Correction Factor
    DFCO RPM Min (A/C Comp Active)
    DFCO RPM Min (Nom.)
    Full Load Enrichment Correction for Ti
    Idle PWM % for Start
    Idle PWM Factor for Cat Heating
    Idle Speed (A/C on)
    Idle Speed (Drive & A/C)
    Idle Speed (Drive)
    Idle Speed (Nom.)
    Ignition Advance Compensation for Vanos Active
    Ignition Angle Correction for IGA_TIA_TCO
    Ignition Angle for Cranking/Start
    Initialization factor for TI_MAF_AE
    Lambda TCO Threshold
    Lambda TCO Threshold #2
    LM (mg/Hub) Threshold for TI_COP Activation
    MAF Transfer table
    MAF(mg/Hub) Calc from ICV
    MAF(mg/Hub) Calc from RPM/TPS
    Min TPS Threshold for Full Load (and TI_FL)
    Minimum MAF Threshold for Knock Detection (mg/TDC)
    TCO Linearization Table
    Ti Correction for Vanos Active
    TI Idle Correction (TI_IS)
    TI_CAST (Initialized Value for Coldstart Enrichment Factor)
    TI_COP Correction for Knock Control
    TI_CST (Initialized Ti for Cranking/Start)
    TI_DEAC_CST (Start Fuel Deactivation Factor)
    TI_TKW_DEAC_FAC (Coolant Temp Deactivation Factor for Start Fuel)
    TIA Linearization Table
    TIADADDn Warmup Factor
    TIADFAKn Warmup Factor
    TIPR_CST (Initial Injection Pulse for Cranking/Start)
    Vanos Actuation Control Table #1 for TPS hi
    Vanos Actuation Control Table #2 for TPS hi
    Vanos Actuation MAF Threshold #1 for low TPS
    Vanos Actuation MAF Threshold #2 for low TPS
    Vanos Select Logic TPS Threshold
    Weighting factor for IGA_TIA_TCO

    (Those, BTW, were just some of the less-obscure map/field titles
    from a map printout from one of my programs for ONE variant of
    E36 328i)
    Last edited by 325icintn; 07-08-2008 at 07:39 PM.

  3. #78
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    Thanks, Clifton. I hadn't seen that thread before. None of the pertinent maps for a basic FI tune are even in that list.

  4. #79
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    I have to disagree with jimc. I do not believe that all those things are necessary. If you are using a stock ecu, most of those values will never change. If you take a look at Crome (a honda tuning map editor with logging real-time update and tuning, etc.) it has very few of those maps and I have tuned extensively with it without issue.

    The FI guys will need more than the NA guys, and perhaps some more of that may come into play with cams, intake manifolds, different tb's, etc, but that is not the average street car.

    I would say that just to have the basics to "massage" a tune for 100oct, intake, exhaust, etc should be the goal at first. Then branch out.


    Okay guys, i'll take a look at making my own xdf. But just in case i run out of time (dyno is end of the month whether i like it or not) can someone bail me out for a couple $$? Thanks.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficker View Post
    I have to disagree with jimc. I do not believe that all those things are necessary. If you are using a stock ecu, most of those values will never change. If you take a look at Crome (a honda tuning map editor with logging real-time update and tuning, etc.) it has very few of those maps and I have tuned extensively with it without issue.

    The FI guys will need more than the NA guys, and perhaps some more of that may come into play with cams, intake manifolds, different tb's, etc, but that is not the average street car.

    I would say that just to have the basics to "massage" a tune for 100oct, intake, exhaust, etc should be the goal at first. Then branch out.


    Okay guys, i'll take a look at making my own xdf. But just in case i run out of time (dyno is end of the month whether i like it or not) can someone bail me out for a couple $$? Thanks.
    There is a huge change when going from the Bosch ECUs to the Siemens. I do agree that most of that list IS needed. Even the idle RPMs are needed to adjust for such things as lightweight flywheels. The 413 maybe closer to a crome based tune, but Siemens is a completely different ball game.

    Rob - 2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster | 1986 Porsche 944 5.3L LM4

  6. #81
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    injection time constant, I wish.

    *drool*

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by wulfgang View Post
    ...Posting a long list of meaningless parameters serves only two purposes: 1) intimidation to keep people from trying to crack OBDII or 2) showing off what you know to feed the ego.
    We have a winner. The most important maps are established and in use by several DIY tuners. The injector time would be a nice find, but we are surviving without it. I wonder if the failure of Shark Edit to launch is as a result of OCD and the perfect being the enemy of the good.

    That being said, there are several items in that list which I would like to know about. Some of the terms have no meaning to me.
    Can anyone can enlighten me on:
    Air Density Divisor for CALC_TEST_MAF
    Full Load Enrichment Correction for Ti (throttle tip-in?)
    TCO Linearization Table
    TIA Linearization Table

  8. #83
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    The first sounds like what was being referred to as the self check for the odb2 cars on the MAF sensor. The second sounds like the very useful throttle tip in and perhaps there is (there should be a similar item for lifting off the throttle).

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstah View Post
    There is a huge change when going from the Bosch ECUs to the Siemens. I do agree that most of that list IS needed. Even the idle RPMs are needed to adjust for such things as lightweight flywheels. The 413 maybe closer to a crome based tune, but Siemens is a completely different ball game.
    Please refer to the thread title....

  10. #85
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    Alright, i woke up this morning with this idea. What do you guys think?

    I believe the reason that this work has been moving backwards instead of forwards is due in part by the "need" to make a new xdf for each bin.
    This does make sense to me.

    Why can't we all agree on one specific bin and one specific xdf. The same bin will run on any 413. This would eliminate the need to create a new xdf each time someone reads their chip. I can guarantee you that the conforti created turner chips are all based on the same file/bin for each chassis.

    This would also eliminate the need to have a "map finder" and would also move us closer to a proper editor.

    Then instead of trying to find maps we already know about, we can spend time finding maps that are unknown so far.

    Thoughts?

  11. #86
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    I agree and think its a great idea, was tried before on .co.uk forum.
    so how do we pick one over the others? Use a single 94 325 5speed one because its the middle of the range for everything, or one off my 10/94 525i?

    That would help a bit I should think.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficker View Post
    Alright, i woke up this morning with this idea. What do you guys think?

    I believe the reason that this work has been moving backwards instead of forwards is due in part by the "need" to make a new xdf for each bin.
    This does make sense to me.

    Why can't we all agree on one specific bin and one specific xdf. The same bin will run on any 413. This would eliminate the need to create a new xdf each time someone reads their chip. I can guarantee you that the conforti created turner chips are all based on the same file/bin for each chassis.

    This would also eliminate the need to have a "map finder" and would also move us closer to a proper editor.

    Then instead of trying to find maps we already know about, we can spend time finding maps that are unknown so far.

    Thoughts?
    if you understand the formating of the maps then its pretty easy to make you own XDF file. some one might wanna use the BIN from there car and not a BIN someone else has posted on the internet.

    if it helps the maps start at the back of the chip, start of the chip 0x0000 end of the chip 0xFFFF, the maps are after ~0x7000
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichbinsobose View Post
    I agree and think its a great idea, was tried before on .co.uk forum.
    so how do we pick one over the others? Use a single 94 325 5speed one because its the middle of the range for everything, or one off my 10/94 525i?

    That would help a bit I should think.
    Do all the 2.5l cars use the same program? I would think it would be independant of chassis. I have the bin from my 95 525 dme, but does anyone have the bin that the xdf that was posted in this thread was created for? That way we have the bin that corresponds with the posted xdf. Or post a bin and an xdf.

    I dont think it matters much which bin we use, it will be adjusted for everyone's individual use. And when a proper editor comes to pass, we can have options to adjust mapping for different motors, eg, 3.2 or 2.8. But it would all be based off the same bin.

    Seems like most people involved here have a non-M motor, so it seems like the 2.5l mapping would be most beneficial to use.


    Keaton:
    I'm sure that its not that "hard" to find the maps, but I think the goal here should be making this available to the average tuner. Someone that has the ability to make educated adjustments to the tune, but does not necessarily read hex or have the time to sort through it all everytime a new customer comes in. The end goal is to have a map editor that is user friendly.

  14. #89
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    I can host. Email me what we need to post and i will do so, then provide links to those files. eficker at gmail dot com

    We should probably start with a matching bin/xdf. I'm sure by default that will become the one we will use.
    Last edited by eficker; 07-09-2008 at 03:42 PM.

  15. #90
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    Does anyone have a BIN file that I can play with? The one hosted by TRM is down. I just want to see one and mess with it to learn my way around tuner pro and the Hex editors. I didn't see another hosted in this thread, though I may have missed something.

  16. #91
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    Zak, I'll have one up as soon as someone sends it over, or if you pm me your email i send you mine, it just will not have a matching xdf.

  17. #92
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    You guys still aren't getting it. Quit trying to skip the learning process.

    Rob - 2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster | 1986 Porsche 944 5.3L LM4

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficker View Post
    Zak, I'll have one up as soon as someone sends it over, or if you pm me your email i send you mine, it just will not have a matching xdf.
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Robstah View Post
    You guys still aren't getting it. Quit trying to skip the learning process.
    I'm not really trying to skip the learning process. I am a computer guy, but not really into coding. The best way I learn how to do something is if I have it sitting in front of me so I can see what is going on. I have read this whole thread a few times but it is so much information and nothing to apply it to. I learn a whole lot better when I can read a little, then figure it out by doing it, then read some more etc.

  19. #94
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    Not everyone is going to be able to play with hex and xdf's rob. And a lot of those guys who can't will know a lot more about cars then you. This is about making it accessible so we can start making real power and stop posting silly nonsense on forums like this because guys with a smaller budget and brain are not around to push the envelope on stock blocks like other communities. At least that's why I'm into it. =p

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmonkey View Post
    You don't need software to delete EWS, just delete the module, consult wiring schematics.

    ..
    I pulled pin 66 in the DME on my EWS II E34...

    Now that EWS was deleted do I buy software from a pre-1/95 413?
    -Denton

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstah View Post
    You guys still aren't getting it. Quit trying to skip the learning process.
    The goal here (and someone stop me if i'm wrong) is to make obd1 413 tuning accessable to those that need it. I can tell you that i have tuned about a hundred honda's on crome and never once opened a hex editor to do so.

    Don't get me wrong, there will be a few people (probably less than 5) that actually "get" how to find the maps and will find the majority of the new maps we don't currently have. To those people, the rest of us will be indebted. But the normal end user is the target market or audience if you will. Hopefully for the average tuner we can develop a map editor that will never require them to open a hex editor.

    You don't have to understand the code of a web server (say apache for example) to use one successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4500 RPM View Post
    I pulled pin 66 in the DME on my EWS II E34...
    Now that EWS was deleted do I buy software from a pre-1/95 413?
    In this thread we are trying to establish a way to make your own maps/tunes. If you are looking for which commercial chip to buy, you may need to search a different thread.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficker View Post



    In this thread we are trying to establish a way to make your own maps/tunes. If you are looking for which commercial chip to buy, you may need to search a different thread.
    Thanks.
    -Denton

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 325icintn View Post
    He's asking if he made a mistake in buying a custom chip. Look for his thread in the e34 section.


    You're still not over this.

    Please note that that's not what I'm asking, it's laid out in my post.
    -Denton

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 325icintn View Post
    I encourage everyone to keep this thread free from OT or "popcorn" posts. It will likely get long enough without the fluff.

    Clifton
    Straight from the horse's mouth.
    -Denton

  25. #100
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    No, I understand that you're trying to get everyone to laugh at ichbinsobose. I got it the first time.
    -Denton

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