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Thread: D-Force 18x10 on E46M3!

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    D-Force 18x10 on E46M3!

    Well, looks like the ET25 18x10 D-Force LTW5 isn't going to happen this year. Good news - its not necessary for the E46 M3.



    More: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3235187#191559468

    That's a Vorshlag tester that has been running around all summer with these 18x10s and 265/35/18 Bridgestone Potenza RE-01Rs. They fit great, and a 285/30/18 would fit easily (that car ran 265s due to an SCCA class rule size limit). Most performance tire models come in the popular 285 size because it is a great package - relatively short and really wide. It works perfectly on a 10" wide wheel.




    (285/30/18 shown on black 18x10 wheels)

    More: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3343391#186319318

    We've sold a lot of the D-Force 18x10s this year, mostly to E36 racers, but they fit the E46 non-M, E46 M3 and even the E90 cars with ease....



    (note: 10" wheel does not fit front of E90; E36 and E46 non-M requires mild fender rolling)

    Just wanted to remind folks that the current 18x10 D-Force ET43 fits the E46 M3 chassis well with a 10mm spacer front and rear, and no fender rolling. These wheels are in plentiful stock stateside in Black w/ machine lip, Silver and Anthracite. You want to go faster on coure? Its hard to beat bigger tires for better grip! These are priced at $309/each and weigh only 18.7 pounds. A lot of wheel for the money, and a lot of tire for the M3!

    You can order easily, right here. Don't forget spacers and wheel stud conversion kits.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    18x10 et 43 (+10mm) wearing 265 at all four corners?????

    just making sure i read that right.

    would a 15mm spacer be better for the rear to get the offset closer to stock?

    great cheap light wheels though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious View Post
    18x10 et 43 (+10mm) wearing 265 at all four corners?????

    just making sure i read that right.
    That's what we've run on E46 M3s for months, yes. The car picture is lowered with AST4100 coilovers and has a little negative camber in those pictures (street settings) and no fender rolling.



    Quote Originally Posted by Serious View Post
    would a 15mm spacer be better for the rear to get the offset closer to stock?
    I suppose you could run a 15mm in the rear (not the front), but it wouldn't change anything except for maybe "the look"? The wheels fit with ample room inside and out using a 10mm spacer, even with a 285/30/18 tire (as seen on the black 18x10 wheels in my first post, above). Me personally, I'd take the slightly narrower track width for better aero, transitional characteristics, and LSD function. These are wheels made first and foremost for BMW's that are used in competition (best fit for the most tire, lightest weight), and its only good fortune that they happen to look great too.

    Last edited by Fair; 03-07-2008 at 06:03 PM.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    I'm planning on running the 18x9 with 255/40 or 255/35 all around on my E46 M3. I'm hoping this works without a spacer up front.

    Can anyone verify that this works without a spacer up front?
    I have a stock suspension right now, and while I will be upgrading I'm not planning on getting a coilover kit as this typically places the lower spring support lower than stock (right at the tire). This way the wheel can't sneak under the spring and a spacer is required. At least this was the case on my E36 M3
    Last edited by VinceSe; 03-07-2008 at 12:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceSe View Post
    I'm planning on running the 18x9 with 255/40 or 255/35 all around on my E46 M3. I'm hoping this works without a spacer up front.

    Can anyone verify that this works without a spacer up front?
    I have a stock suspension right now, and while I will be upgrading I'm not planning on getting a coilover kit as this typically places the lower spring support lower than stock (right at the tire). This way the wheel can sneak under the spring and a spacer is required. At least this was the case on my E36 M3
    I have a few pics of the 18x9 LTW5 tested on an E46 sedan... it should have the same clearance to the strut as the E46 M3, even though it has narrower fender flares:





    No spacer was used up front and it had ample clearance to the strut.

    Just remember... the 18x10 fits the E46 M3 soooo nicely....







    That's the 18x10 LTW5 with a 10mm spacer front/rear with a 265/35/18 tire. The rear could easily take a 285/30/18. Lots of good grip there!
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    Thanks Terry, that was a quick reply!

    I edited my original post as I saw a typo had snuck in. This is what I meant:
    "This way the wheel can't sneak under the spring and a spacer is required."

    But I guess you figured that out.

    Thanks for the pictures, the sedan actually has the Koni's I'm planning on getting, so the 18x9's should not be a problem at all. Do you know what size the tires are on the sedan? It looks like it could be 255/40's.

    Yes, the 18x10's look really nice on the M3, but I'd like to be able to run the wheels without the spacer up front as I'm a bit concerned that it will be a bit to "nervous" on the road with such a significant offset change. Again, that's what I experienced with my E36 M3.
    I would like to run the same size all around so I could compensate for wear and also minimize under steer.

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    I was able to run 18x9.5 ET44 with a 255/40 T1-R up front on the E46 M3 with no spacer with coilovers. (Stock, I could run 275/35 RA-1s on the same wheels.) You're not talking about aggressive fitments at all here, so I would NOT rule out coilovers. Worst case scenario, you might need a 5mm spacer with a wide tire. Keep in mind that lowering the car on springs costs you your very, VERY precious front bump travel and that the car will both ride like crap and handle poorly over bumps.
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    Thanks Nick,
    Valuable feedback, good advice and good point.
    I appreciate it.

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    I run D-Force 18x10's with 265's.
    10mm front
    10mm rear for track (18mm rear for around town)

    I'd post a pict but apparently I'm too new on this board or haven't posted enough yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceSe View Post
    This is what I meant:
    "This way the wheel can't sneak under the spring and a spacer is required."
    Hmm.... well, with a proper spring length and enough threaded length on the strut body you can get a coilover to work where the lower spring perch is above the front tire. We've done it countless times, and it helps you fit more ultimate tire width. You just have to know what parts to use and select a coilover that allows for enough perch adjustment. The much smaller diameter coilover springs also allows for much more negative camber travel, and ultimately more grip on a BMW. There are other reasons to use coilovers, too... much of it having to do with much better spring rates/lengths/choices, as well as better dampening capabilities.



    Now I will say that many folks using coilovers don't always know you can do this (keep the lower perch above the tire), and a lot of coilovers sold won't work like this unless you get the right spring lengths to maximize wheel/tire room... but its something we always strive to provide to our AST coilover customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceSe View Post
    ...the sedan actually has the Koni's I'm planning on getting, so the 18x9's should not be a problem at all. Do you know what size the tires are on the sedan? It looks like it could be 255/40's.
    The 255/40/18 is going to be a hair taller than stock - you want to also look at the 255/35/18. That's the street tire on my E36 M3 as well (also on 18x9s) and its the closest to the stock diameter for a 255/18 and accurate speedometer/odometer function that I've seen.



    Having driven that E46 sedan in a competition environment (that's me driving it in the rain, above) I can say this: its too low, its undersprung, and it bottoms out a lot. And it has the stiffest "lowering springs" that company makes, which are about half the rate that it needs. It pitches, rolls and leans way too much during competitive use - the springs are just way too soft. As are all OEM style "lowering springs".

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceSe View Post
    Yes, the 18x10's look really nice on the M3, but I'd like to be able to run the wheels without the spacer up front as I'm a bit concerned that it will be a bit to "nervous" on the road with such a significant offset change. Again, that's what I experienced with my E36 M3.
    I would like to run the same size all around so I could compensate for wear and also minimize under steer.
    Using a spacer is not a big deal, if its a properly designed spacer and you use longer wheel studs. A 5mm spacer doesn't even need (nor can it have) a hub. Any decent 10-18mm spacer has an extended hub section for your wheels to rest on - so they remain "hub-centric".


    Vorshlag BMW wheel spacers, clockwise from top left: 18mm, 15mm, 10mm, 5mm.

    The 18x9 and 18x10 fitments are not that wild and woolly - many of our customers that use these on E46 cars do so on daily driven and track cars alike. Running the same width and offset wheel front and rear is smart for many reasons, but due to BMW's oddball staggered wheel/chassis design its often required to use the same offset front and rear and have spacers at one end. That's just what it boils down to, and its not really a big compromise if you have properly designed wheel studs and hubcentric spacers.

    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    ...You're not talking about aggressive fitments at all here, so I would NOT rule out coilovers. Worst case scenario, you might need a 5mm spacer with a wide tire. Keep in mind that lowering the car on springs costs you your very, VERY precious front bump travel and that the car will both ride like crap and handle poorly over bumps.
    Great observation! This is something many BMW folks overlook too easily when they "upgrade" to aftermarket strut inserts in stock length strut housings -or just use stock struts- with lowering springs. The more you lower the car with shorter springs in the stock length housings the less suspension travel you are going to get, and it doesn't need to be this way. This is why most aftermarket coilovers have (or should have!) shorter strut housing lengths than stock - as they allow for more suspension travel with a lower ride height than with stock struts and "lowering springs".

    The reason most people avoid real coilovers: Cost

    Its always cheaper just to buy "inserts" because you are providing fewer parts, but its a compromise. We do sell one AST suspension set-up that uses inserts, but its only because the factory strut housings are welded to the spindle (BMW E30, and only on the AST4100s - the 4200 and 4300s come with fabricated strut bodies welded to factory spindles), and even then we suggest shortening and re-threading the strut body - something we are gearing up to do here in the 'states.

    Anyway... good shock discussion for a wheel thread.
    Last edited by Fair; 03-07-2008 at 06:19 PM.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    Pictures of anthracite on a carbon black E46M3 please?



    Would this setup work on a car with stock rear camber and a full ground control street/school kit with moderate lowering for street?

    Do you guys sell packages with tires mounted?

    Thanks!
    Steve
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    Only one minor point, Terry. Vince is looking at E46 M3 fitments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    Pictures of anthracite on a carbon black E46M3 please?



    Would this setup work on a car with stock rear camber and a full ground control street/school kit with moderate lowering for street?

    Do you guys sell packages with tires mounted?

    Thanks!
    Steve
    Answer to quesiton 1: I've posted all the pics I have of an E46 M3 with D-Force wheels. Use your imagination.

    Answer to quesiton 2: Yes.

    Quesiton 3: No.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    Pictures of anthracite on a carbon black E46M3 please?
    I second that!

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    Fitment

    Can you run 285/30/18 front and back? Your post says the 285 will fit in the rear. Will it work in the front?

    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by campygoob View Post
    Can you run 285/30/18 front and back? Your post says the 285 will fit in the rear. Will it work in the front?

    Fred
    My post (#6) has pics of E46 M3 with 18x10s, too .... more here.



    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    Only one minor point, Terry. Vince is looking at E46 M3 fitments.

    D-Force 18x10 with 285/30/18 tires... fits easily in the rear...

    The 285 has been done on the front of the E46 M3 as well... but the front is more difficult than the rear, and it requires some attention to detail (spring perch height on your coilovers), a bit of negative camber, and possibly even rolled fender lips. Some folks have done 285s "on stock rims" or otherwise narrower than 10" wide wheels... but that squeezes the tire and makes it easier to fit (and is "less than ideal"). Another factor is "all 285/30/18 tires are not created equal"... some tire manufacturers "run large". The BFG R1 is known to run narrow, wheras the 285 in the picture above is about +10mm wider.

    A 285/30/18 tire, no matter who makes it, is big enough to more than justify moving up to a 18x10" wheel (at the minimum) and this combination can make a TON OF GRIP. With these 18x10s and 285 and 305 Hoosiers on our E36 it can make enough grip to pop up on 2 wheels.... Lesson learned: once making more and more grip you need to adjust spring rates up accordingly.



    "Caution: If after using 285mm R compounds you have an @rection lasting more than 4 hours, please see a doctor...."

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    Thanks for the reply

    Fair,

    Can you give us measurements for the position of the spring pearch? I'm running TC Kline SA's with 500# springs F&R. The car has been corner balanced with a full tank of gas and 180 Lbs in the driver's seat. I may be able to get more info on the spring lengths if needed. I want to run D-Force 18X10 with a non staggered tire set up. If I can do 285's and roll the fronts it's no issue. I don't want to change the ride level to make this work as that will change the weight distribution.

    Thanks,
    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by campygoob View Post
    Fair,

    Can you give us measurements for the position of the spring pearch? I'm running TC Kline SA's with 500# springs F&R. The car has been corner balanced with a full tank of gas and 180 Lbs in the driver's seat. I may be able to get more info on the spring lengths if needed. I want to run D-Force 18X10 with a non staggered tire set up. If I can do 285's and roll the fronts it's no issue. I don't want to change the ride level to make this work as that will change the weight distribution.

    Thanks,
    Fred
    I can't know where your spring perch is located on your car. Yes, you need to know the spring rates and lengths (printed on the spring usually), and measure your current ride height, but you really need to check where the perches are located on your car currently:



    Jack up a corner and peek in there - take a look and see if your front coilover strut / spring perch set-up looks like this. The lower spring perch needs to be above the tire (or move there if you have enough threads on your coilover body). This could mean you have to swap out to a shorter spring (a 150mm length is often needed on an E36, like the one shown) and yes, you may have to re-adjust the perch heights and have the car corner weighted again. Part of the joy of squeezing 10" wide wheels on a BMW that came with 7.5" or 8" front wheels...

    EDIT: Just to be clear - all of the 18x10 LTW5 set-ups we've done on E46 M3s were using 265/35/18 tires. We did test fit the 285s on the rear (shown above) but a quick check on the front with this wheel/tire combo didn't clear and the customer didn't want us to "roll his fender lips real quick" (hehe, of course) so I can't tell you exactly what spacer and how much camber and how much fender rolling you need to clear a 285 tire up front. I know it has been done with these cars and a 10" wheel, just don't know these exact details yet. Might just a wee bit of experimentation...
    Last edited by Fair; 03-13-2008 at 04:44 PM.
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    how about 20s with tires 275 30 20s on the rear and 235 35 20s on the fornt do you have those and do they fit an e46 m3 2002 without any mods, spacers, or fender welding

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    Quote Originally Posted by coreyjagh View Post
    how about 20s with tires 275 30 20s on the rear and 235 35 20s on the fornt do you have those and do they fit an e46 m3 2002 without any mods, spacers, or fender welding
    Twenties yo!

    Bling.
    Bling.

    Hehehe... we will never sell 20" wheels nor encourage D-Force to make them. Ever.
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    what do you think about running 10mm spacers all around on 18 inch, 40mm, 18x8 rims on a 00' 323i on h&r springs? I wanna get spacers before i put them on but I don't know how much I should space them.

    i'll also have 225/40/18 tires

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUR0PR0JEKTZ View Post
    what do you think about running 10mm spacers all around on 18 inch, 40mm, 18x8 rims on a 00' 323i on h&r springs? I wanna get spacers before i put them on but I don't know how much I should space them.

    i'll also have 225/40/18 tires
    I doubt that little 18x8" wheel will need any spacers at all, with a +40 offset. But this thread was about 18x10" D-Force wheels on an E46, so...
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    Has anyone fitted stock 18" rear rims to front?

    Stock front 8 x 18 ET 47
    Stock rear 9 x 18 ET 26

    If I calculated right, with rear rim on front the outer edge of rim would be about 35 mm (1.35") further out. Inner edge should not be problem at all.

    I have spare full set of 18" rims and could buy two separate rear rims very cheaply and I wonder if I could run 9 x 18" ET 26 all around for symmetrical track tire set. Tires would not be wider than 255, maybe 245.

    I would test fit the rims I already have to see if the tires clear the front fenders but tires are 400 km away...

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