Yokohama ES100 initial impressions

**hccyong** · 03-13-2003, 12:55 AM

First some background: The set of tires I just took off were Continental ContiSportContacts (takeoffs from E46). Before that were Dunlop SP2000s (original tires on my sport package car). Therefore, I had high expectations of the Yokohama ES100s. My size is 225/50ZR16.

Unfortunately, the initial impressions are disappointing

But, it's only the first day, and I have hope still.

Here's why:

Ride quality is good. A lot of the little ridges, joints and small bumps are now nicely absorbed. I noticed the same thing when switching from the SP2000s to the ContiSportContacts, so I wonder if part of this is just due to new tires with more rubber!

Steering effort at low speeds/stopped is lighter, which is good news because my steering tends to be heavy compared with other E36s.

Now I didn't push the tires hard as I want to "break in" the rubber. So I don't know about the ultimate grip yet...I'll post about that in a few weeks.

But, I have been able to go at around 50 mph and do steering wiggles (as in going to 45 degrees off center, back and forth). I noticed huge slip angles

and a much longer "time constant" than I'm used to. The car would not turn-in as immediately, but once it did, the rear caught up, and I would feel more oversteer than expected. I spent a lot of time tuning my suspension (Bilstein PSS-9s) with shock settings, different anti-roll bars, tire pressures, alignment and the Ground Control street stability kit to get it to feel just right for me so that turn-in would be quick and without surprises after the initial turn-in. It looks like I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board with these tires. The transition response was slow enough that it almost seemed like the car's response was almost out of phase with my steering input! Well, it's not that bad, but that's what it makes me think of.

You're probably asking about tire pressures. I'm running the same pressures as what I've found to be good before with my ContiSportContacts: 34/31. I'm really hoping that higher pressures is going to solve my problem. I might try like 37/34 or something. But I guess that will make the ride a bit harsher and maybe give me too much wear in the center of the tread, but I really hope to quicken up the transients. It almost feels like the suspension reacts too quickly compared to the tires now. I will let you know how that works out. Also, after I have more miles on the tires, I hope to test out its ultimate grip. Perhaps that aspect will bring a smile to my face. As far as I can tell by the "fingernail test," the rubber on these tires is much softer than my ContiSportContacts!

**Def** · 03-13-2003, 12:09 PM

I just got some ES100's up front and have come to the conclusion that they are a very good street tire - and make some necessary compromises to be a good street tire, but they are as 'minimal' as possible.

For instance, softer sidewalls than some tires. Makes the ride much more comfortable.

As for response - the only time I pushed mine was at Road Atlanta. I noticed that too high of cold pressures gave me a good immediate turn in then the grip just wasn't there afterwards. Turns out that at ~37psi cold they were going all the way up to ~45-46psi hot - which is just too much for street tires.

So I tuned it down to about 34psi cold and they were hitting right around 41-42psi hot and I really started liking them! Turn-in seemed even better, and at the limit grip was VERY predictable and consistent. The tires are pretty quiet as far as most tires go when pushed.

All in all - good street tire. Although I'm starting to wonder how long this set will last so that I can possibly try out some Kumho MX's. Heard they grip better than S03's - which have amazing grip! Gotta investigate for myself.

**NoSoup4U** · 03-13-2003, 12:11 PM

I ran 38 psi at the rear and 33 at the fronts for the track. Ride quality is decent at those pressure levels. The thing I noticed, when pushed, the tires do tend to screech a bit more than I was used to....however, it still held the line pretty well. I felt that for the money, the tires are not a bad investment. However, if you are pretty serious about driving, it might be better to step up to the Kumho MX's. Turn-in seemed a little delayed IMO....hard to quantify; but, it just felt that way if it makes sense.

I ran 17x7.5's at all four corners...

**hccyong** · 03-13-2003, 12:40 PM

Thanks for the replies. I'm just surprised at the softer sidewalls and slower transients considering that these are supposed to be the replacements for the AVS Intermediates. And I thought the ContiSportContacts (my old tires) were supposed to be quite poor in the category!

**Bry** · 03-13-2003, 06:15 PM

Interesting, although those tire pressures sound a little low (I'm not really sure what you should be running on the E36). If you get any more driving or testing in, please inform us, as I am very interetsted.

The turn in could be due to the low tire pressures, but I'm not very knowledgable in the tires category. I have been looking at getting the ES100's, and I want to see what your final word is on them. Would you reccomend them to someone else? If you get a chance to test them in the water I'd love to hear how they do. (I'm looking for a good street tire, nothing for the track, I have a second set of wheels for those, but I want a good performer for the street).

Thanks!

**DesmoBob** · 03-13-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Bry
The turn in could be due to the low tire pressures, but I'm not very knowledgable in the tires category. I have been looking at getting the ES100's, and I want to see what your final word is on them. Would you reccomend them to someone else? If you get a chance to test them in the water I'd love to hear how they do. (I'm looking for a good street tire, nothing for the track, I have a second set of wheels for those, but I want a good performer for the street).

i'm in exactly the same situation as Bry. i am considering ES100s. i have no plans for putting them on the track, just want a good street tire. also interested in how they hold up on wet pavement.

**Kramer** · 03-13-2003, 08:12 PM

Well...
I'm not a track star and I have the es100's. Love them. Seem very predictable, ride well, quiet, comfy and look good ta boot. I've taken them pretty hard and don't hear the squeal mentioned as compared to other tires. They seem to be wearing well and are very sure footed in the rain.

Mike
'98 328iC
Nashville

**hccyong** · 03-13-2003, 08:13 PM

Interesting, although those tire pressures sound a little low (I'm not really sure what you should be running on the E36). If you get any more driving or testing in, please inform us, as I am very interetsted.

I checked my pressures today. Although I told the installer to set them at 34/31, I measured mine today to be 36/33. Perhaps it is my scale that's a bit off, but my point is that at those pressures with my old tires, the response was definitely better.

I'll keep playing around with pressures and wait for the tires to break-in and update everyone. It is starting to rain here now, but the rubber is so new that I don't know if my drive later on in the wet will reflect its true capabilities yet or not.

**hccyong** · 03-13-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Kramer
Well...
I'm not a track star and I have the es100's. Love them. Seem very predictable, ride well, quiet, comfy and look good ta boot. I've taken them pretty hard and don't hear the squeal mentioned as compared to other tires. They seem to be wearing well and are very sure footed in the rain.

Mike
'98 328iC
Nashville

Yes, the ride is good, and, with the softer compound, I'm pretty sure the ultimate traction will be good too. It's just that the response is not what I expected. I expected something closer to razor sharp, but so far it's been kind of buttery smooth

I think it really depends on your suspension too. I'm running coilovers, so any delays in the tire is really felt. Whereas most cars have suspensions that take a bit of time to settle, now it seems like with the ES100 that the suspension is ready to settle, but the tires are still trying to find out where they want to be. In quick transitions, there is a split second where, as a driver, I'm not quite sure where the tires are and where they're about to go. I'm sure I'll get used to it though. The reduced sidewall strength is noticeable in terms of body roll too. I can see my hood being more slanted than I'm used to!

**Def** · 03-13-2003, 09:37 PM

Wet traction is very good for a performance tire IMO. Dry grip is good for a street tire.

If you want ultimate grip, look into Kumho MX's or R-compounds.

**Bry** · 03-13-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by hccyong
Yes, the ride is good, and, with the softer compound, I'm pretty sure the ultimate traction will be good too. It's just that the response is not what I expected. I expected something closer to razor sharp, but so far it's been kind of buttery smooth I think it really depends on your suspension too. I'm running coilovers, so any delays in the tire is really felt. Whereas most cars have suspensions that take a bit of time to settle, now it seems like with the ES100 that the suspension is ready to settle, but the tires are still trying to find out where they want to be. In quick transitions, there is a split second where, as a driver, I'm not quite sure where the tires are and where they're about to go. I'm sure I'll get used to it though. The reduced sidewall strength is noticeable in terms of body roll too. I can see my hood being more slanted than I'm used to!

Interesting, are the sidewalls really that soft? I am really looking for something with good turn in, good precision, and it doesn't seem like what you describe is it. Although new tires have a compound on them from the moulding process that wears off after a few hundred miles that is pretty slippery, and they are new tires, so you will have the deeper tread to squish around with.

**hccyong** · 03-13-2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Bry
Interesting, are the sidewalls really that soft? I am really looking for something with good turn in, good precision, and it doesn't seem like what you describe is it. Although new tires have a compound on them from the moulding process that wears off after a few hundred miles that is pretty slippery, and they are new tires, so you will have the deeper tread to squish around with.

I haven't had that much experience with tires, so I don't know how these compare to other tires. But it certainly feels like the sidewalls are quite soft. Yeah, I haven't really tested the rubber's stickiness yet, so I don't think it's that. But it could partly be the deeper tread as well. But I'd be surprised if it's the tread making all the difference.

**Kos-motate139** · 03-14-2003, 02:45 AM

I got a new set of AVS Intermediates (one of the last set on the shelf!) in December as the street tires for my ti, (205/60x15) and they definitely weren't at their best (or as good as they are now) until at least 400 miles or more. I'd keep an eye on 'em and see what happens.

**hccyong** · 03-14-2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by Kos-motate139
I got a new set of AVS Intermediates (one of the last set on the shelf!) in December as the street tires for my ti, (205/60x15) and they definitely weren't at their best (or as good as they are now) until at least 400 miles or more. I'd keep an eye on 'em and see what happens.

Nice to know. Do you mean that the transients and slip angles improved too? But by 400 miles, I'll probably be used to the tires anyway

**hccyong** · 03-14-2003, 06:36 PM

Did a bit more testing with pressures today on a short windy section averaging 45-50 mph.

40/40 psi: Response is improved but actually a little skittish on the rear

32/40 psi: I actually don't remember this one well (should have taken notes)

32/32 psi: Sluggish but predictable

40/32 psi: Probably what i like best out of these. After the tires take a set at this pressure, the feel is good. I would like a little bit more rear grip after turn-in. I am getting understeer on turn-in. I will probably run close to this pressure (maybe pump up the rears slightly) but stiffen up the rear shocks a tad.

**Bry** · 03-14-2003, 08:02 PM

That is a very big tire pressure difference! With the newer set up, how do you like them now, do they feel better? After a couple of hundred miles like what Kos said, see if you like them any better.

**hccyong** · 03-14-2003, 08:48 PM

Yeah, I wanted to exaggerate the tire pressure differences to really feel the difference. I'm still getting used to the feel. I'll report back with more miles on them.

**kitwetzler** · 03-14-2003, 08:50 PM

I have ES100s in the front. Definitely not an S-03 competitor but a good cheaper tire. I find that they need high pressures for good turn in and that they are ok with large slip angles.

They pretty much suck on the track, I ran them in the rain and when it started drying out, I headed back in and slapped on my r-compounds (too bald for wet weather use) because the ES100s just weren't up to the task. They are very easy to overheat and they chunk really nastily when they do.

**TeamZ4** · 03-14-2003, 08:50 PM

general observations over the years; to compare two tires you really need to have two sets mounted up and do back to back comparisons. To run one set of tires down and then install a different new set generally won't yield any valid comparison data

**hccyong** · 03-15-2003, 04:04 AM

general observations over the years; to compare two tires you really need to have two sets mounted up and do back to back comparisons. To run one set of tires down and then install a different new set generally won't yield any valid comparison data

Good point. So maybe I should qualify my "impressions" by saying that I think I prefer worn ContiSportContacts over new ES100s

I have ES100s in the front. Definitely not an S-03 competitor but a good cheaper tire. I find that they need high pressures for good turn in and that they are ok with large slip angles. They pretty much suck on the track, I ran them in the rain and when it started drying out, I headed back in and slapped on my r-compounds (too bald for wet weather use) because the ES100s just weren't up to the task. They are very easy to overheat and they chunk really nastily when they do.

Yeah, that seems to be my impression too. They need high pressures and live with larger slip angles. I don't mind the larger slip angles other than that it takes a little more time for the tires to bite. But when they do, having larger slip angles is fun. I've actually stiffened up my rear shocks a little, and that has helped to make the feel more consistent. It used to be that turn-in would be slow, and then I would suddenly get this feel of large slip angle. I've also noticed today during the runs at different pressures that they heated up a lot over just a few minutes of driving! I'm quite surprised at this. I expected these tires, slated as replacements for the AVS Intermediates to be really good, heat resistant tires!

**hccyong** · 03-15-2003, 04:08 AM

Drove a bit in the rain tonight. Tires are definitely not broken in yet, but here are some initial impressions.

I'm spinning my rear wheels more easily accelerating out of a corner...not a good sign of wet traction. But braking hard, it seems less easy to trigger the ABS...I guess this is good. Didn't push it hard in the corners yet...waiting to break-in more. But as of right now, I don't see any improvement in wet traction over the worn ContiSportContacts. Driving in the rain, I'm hearing water spraying onto my front mud flaps or wheelwells more often. Not sure if that's good or bad. Seems like the water dispersion pattern must be quite different. Anyway, it "surprises" me a little...the occasional whoosh of water, that is.

**hccyong** · 03-15-2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by kitwetzler
I have ES100s in the front. Definitely not an S-03 competitor but a good cheaper tire. I find that they need high pressures for good turn in and that they are ok with large slip angles. They pretty much suck on the track, I ran them in the rain and when it started drying out, I headed back in and slapped on my r-compounds (too bald for wet weather use) because the ES100s just weren't up to the task. They are very easy to overheat and they chunk really nastily when they do.

So what do you recommend for crisp turn-in and less exaggerated slip angles? I've heard so many good comments about the ES100, so I had high expectations. I guess I really need to find the negative comments and figure out whether I really can live with these shortcomings that most people don't seem to care about. What tires are you running on the back, by the way. Now I want to find a set of S-03s on the same wheels and feel the difference!

**Kramer** · 03-15-2003, 09:23 AM

No real opinion here (on track tires), but I think all of the praise you hear about the es100's are mostly street related, not -so-much on the track.
Things like "nice grip, good tread life, quiet, nice riding, good in rain, comfy". These are all characteristics which would scare me away as a race tire. See what I'm saying?

Mike
'98 328iC
Nashville
takinittothestreets

**hccyong** · 03-15-2003, 10:14 PM

Did some higher speed (70 MPH+) driving today on the freeway. These tires tramline a bit more on the pavement that is grooved for water drainage. Also seems a bit more sensitive to road crown, but not too bad. Response is still poor. I need more steering input to get the car to shift slightly. This comes across as a poorer and lighter on-center feel. There's a greater delay after turn-in. When the car finally does turn (after a very brief floaty period), it turns and then grips violently and feels like it wants to drift. Not a very safe feeling. I pumped up the rear pressures again so that they're even with the fronts and that seems to help a bit. I'll keep trying...

**hccyong** · 03-15-2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Kramer
No real opinion here (on track tires), but I think all of the praise you hear about the es100's are mostly street related, not -so-much on the track.
Things like "nice grip, good tread life, quiet, nice riding, good in rain, comfy". These are all characteristics which would scare me away as a race tire. See what I'm saying?

Mike
'98 328iC
Nashville
takinittothestreets

Point taken. But there are certainly better street tires than this! I know that my stiff and fairly "loose" setup is emphasizing the problem with these tires (soft, slow sidewalls I think), but I really expected them to do better on the street still than my ContiSportContacts which seem to get poor comments!

I rarely take my car to the track. But I guess maybe I'm expecting a tire that has traits of a race tire?

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