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Thread: BMW E30 M3 vs. Porsche 944 Turbo (951)

  1. #1
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    Exclamation BMW E30 M3 vs. Porsche 944 Turbo (951)

    Since I have been searching for a new auto-x/track car, I've found myself searching for cars that piqued my interest back in the mid to late 1980's. While both cars have the own performance merits, only one factor is drawing me closer to the Porsche: realistic resale values.

    For some reason, E30 M3 owners with cars with a considerable amount of mileage (~more than 130,000 on original engines and chassis) feel that their cars are worth $6-7K premiums over book values. While there is a "rare" factor to be worked into the price (which I feel isn't considered with KBB and Edmunds values), it is hardly worth 75% of the cars particular market value. Think about a "fairly" mint condition E30, and I'd rather have myself a "fairly" mint E36 for the same price.

    As for the Porsche, the owners seem to be realistic (I would have figured the situation to be flipped) while 951's are just capable, if not more. I've found many 951's with low miles and in great condition for anywhere from $6-10K. To boot, they have much more horsepower stock and are easlily modified for much more power...what more could one ask for?

    Maintence on both cars isn't cheap, so I'd say there are equal. Although I'd prefer the NA of the BMW because there is less to go wrong, but that depends on who you talk to...

    So go on...start opining!

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Current:
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    Past:
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    1998 E36 BMW ///M3/4
    2000 E39 BMW ///M5
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    2008 E60 BMW 550i M-Sport

  2. #2
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    Just remember a 951 with M030 suspension easily outhandles an E36 M3 and can be made to go faster than a 996TT. I have a friend pushing out over 400 reliable hp (car weighs under 3000lbs) with the M030 suspension and adj swaybars. Last I heard, he smoked a 360 modena on the highway with 2 of his friends in the car (its a 2+2) and almost full tank of gas.
    [][][][]V[]

    1) '08 Ducati 1098s: modded to the nines
    2) '01 Ducati 748s: track

    The exes: black 95 M3, blue 95 M3, green 330is frankenbimmer

    bf.c OT motorcycle club member #15

  3. #3
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    visit my "other" forum

    http://forums.rennlist.com

    and check out the 924/944/951/968 section. Those guys are gurus.
    [][][][]V[]

    1) '08 Ducati 1098s: modded to the nines
    2) '01 Ducati 748s: track

    The exes: black 95 M3, blue 95 M3, green 330is frankenbimmer

    bf.c OT motorcycle club member #15

  4. #4
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    e30 m3

    e30 M3 is a fricking legend. You should drive one of those cars with a nice suspension set up. I have race springs and performance shocks - I have never driven anything that handles like it! 0 body roll and 0 oversteer, it goes where you point it to. It's really sick. The car is super predictable and has little surprises. Brakes are unbelievable as well, stops on a dime. But be ready to pay for it. People nowadays buy them and wrap them in bubble wrap for future generations.... I'm selling mine and in couple of years will try to find one dead somewhere in a junk yard.
    The S14 can be made very fast, but, again, how much are you willing to pay? For the same $$$ you can have 3 built 944s sitting in your garage.
    FYI on 4,995 e30 M3 ever made it here from the Fatherland. I'm sure there are more 944 around.
    If money is not a question, I'd take the M3. If you are on a budget, then 944 is definitely a wiser move.

  5. #5
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    I have owned an '86 951 (stock) and auto-xed it. The turbo lag sucks big time for auto-x, the car is much more suited for track events though. Just be prepared to spend alot of money just keeping it on the road, they are expensive to fix, that is why I sold it and got a 95 M3.

    My brother has a modded '86 951 and my dad has a '89 951 "S". The porsches can get a hell of alot more HP out of the turbos and make sure it is done right and others thing will be effected.
    Matt Williams -
    Current - 01 LSB M3
    Past - #21 GTS-3 -
    95 Alpine White/Yellow M3 - Stock, except for the stuff that isn't




  6. #6
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    People who don't own E30 M3's will never understand them. It is a SUPERCAR that normal people can own. European Car did a story them last year and it was one of their best buys and they said it is only of the only cars form the 80's that will be GOING UP in value.

    I have driven both quite a bit. The 944 is eaiser to drive fast on a track (good power) but is a DOG in Auto-X the boost comes on to hard and to late. Yes, this can be fixed, but lets stay stock to stock. The bad part is most 944t are beat up, they have been abused, yes there are good ones left but most are not for sale.

    For the money, I would MUCH rather have a 944S2, almost as much HP, but better deliverly and much better suspension and breaks.

    Now back to the M3, in the whole world from 87-92 there were only a little over 17,000 made. That is LESS then the avarge sales of the E36 M3. It is a rare car with a wonderfull history, and there has to be something to it, the car has won more races then ANY other car in racing history!

    They are NOT for everyone, low end torqe is not that great, some feel they are to slow, it's a drivers car and you need some skills to take it to the limit. The best part about the E30 M3 is the hop up parts, my car is 90% factory! Mototsports has a whole catalog of go fast parts!

    Now as far as maintaince, I feel the 944t will cost a tad more. To make them go really fast the 944t is going to be faster (in straight line) for the same money. But in the end for aroudn the same lap times the M3 will be more realiable.

    Look at this COOL factory part!
    <IMG SRC=http://www.s14.net/photopost/data/500/53IMG_1041.jpg?6625>
    Vote for my car at CarDomains.com

  7. #7
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    Hi-
    Driven both, owned one. I had an 86 944 turbo and it was a blast. As most have said, it makes a great track car because it pulls like a crazy bull once your on boost, even with light mods. I had a decent amount of upgrades in both power and supension and that car was fast! Way faster than my current E36 M3. However, it broke all the time and was a mojor pain in my ass and as ///MRacer said this is why I bought my E36 M3. I drove the E30 M3 and it handles like a dream and was very fun. However for street driving it is a bit slow for my tastes. It is fast in a capable drivers hands on the track or autocross course though. Furthermore, I agree with the autocross statement about the (44 turbos. They are no fun with the on and off nature of the turbo. My times were really subpar on the autoX course with that car ( I was much faster with my 83 Gti) and really improved with the M3 that I currently have. But dont let people convince you that the costs to upkeep a M3 are so much less than an 944T. Looked at the motor parts costs lately? They are outrageous! It might be more reliable than the 944 but just dont break the cylinder head on that car. Dont forget that the E30 M3 has a RACECAR motor in it unlike the E36 M3 which is just a hotrodded 325 motor. Anyways slice corners in finesse and learn to maximize power in the M3 OR dominate the freeway and scorch the track in the land missle they call a 944 turbo. Your choice just think long and hard about what is important!

    -Alex
    -Alex

    "The noblest of ideas have always been protected by warriors."

  8. #8
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    To be completely honest, I would rather have the E30 than the 944, just because I am a BMW man.

    But until I can find a little worn, but nicely maintained E30, for a decent price, it looks like I'll be searching for 951's.

    EVOIIIM3:
    The 944 borrows its drivetrain and suspension directly from the 951. Here is a direct quote from the 1989 Porsche 944 S2 brochure: "...The suspension, transmission, competition tested four-piston brake system with ram air cooling, shock absorbers and stabilizers are borrowed directly from the famed 944 Turbo."

    Hopefully this car will last me until I can find a mint E36 LTW or get an E46 M3, which will be a few years.

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Current:
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    Past:
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  9. #9
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    Having owned a fully SCCA SOLO II stock class preped Porsche 968 and 944(N/A), I can say the repair and maintenance on these cars are very high. Each year had additional weaknesses in addition to weaknesses common to all 944 chassis cars. Stock control arms capable of track work are like $750/pair and you will need to replace them on pretty much any car you buy because the ball joints are part of the control arm. This is just an example of the cost of parts.

    As others have said, the 944 turbo such for auto-x, but are great for the track for their straightline speed. If you care to be competitive in auto-x, the E30 M3's are not classed very favorably in SCCA. The E36 M3 is in more competitive classes.

    I would recommend either an 944 S2/968(althought you need to find one that has had its rear pinion bearings replaced...) or an E36 M3. Stock for stock, the E36 M3 will be faster on most tracks due to its more powerful motor. The E36 M3 will also be the best daily driver.(if you plan on driving it on the street)

    I own an E36 M3 now and the cost of repairs and maintenance is *much* lower than either of my Porsche's. My M3 has been more reliable as well - it seemed like small stupid stuff broke all the time on the Porsche's. There is a reason why the 944 chassis cars are so cheap - most have been neglected and repairs are very expensive.

    Hope this helps.

    Bill
    Previous 10 cars owned
    • 1993 325is ITS/JP race car
    • 02 S2000
    • 1995 M3 track/street car
    • 90 Civic Si beater
    • 1986 Porsche 944 ES SCCA Solo II car
    • 2001 Boxster S
    • 2000 Boxster AS Solo II car
    • 1993 Honda Civic EX beater
    • 1993 Porsche 968 AS SCCA Solo II car
    • 1996 318ti sport DS Solo II car

  10. #10
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    Bill,
    Thanks for your thoughts. Now you are making double-minded about pursuing the 951. I've always understood they were a "bitch" to maintain, but they might not be the most fiscally responsible auto-x/track/daily driver.

    Simply, I'm trying to find a good car for about 10K.
    Any suggestions?

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Current:
    2016 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS

    Past:
    1994 E36 BMW Dinan 3
    1998 E36 BMW ///M3/4
    2000 E39 BMW ///M5
    2002 E46 BMW ///M3
    2008 E60 BMW 550i M-Sport

  11. #11
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    Getting your 3'er back would be my suggestion :-P

    I've also been looking at some p-cars, more namely the older 911 turbos. I love them, but I just couldn't handle one at this point in time.

    10k is a strange amount. Especially with the market fluctuating like it is. Every day something is cheaper/more expensive.

    Your best bet will be to just keep reading and looking.

    Do you want turbo, n/a, AWD, RWD, etc..Tons of options

  12. #12
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    Idea!

    1st Gen DSM, baby! They are dirt cheap and can run 13 sec 1/4 mile in less than 1500 in mods.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by FiKtIOn
    Getting your 3'er back would be my suggestion :-P

    I've also been looking at some p-cars, more namely the older 911 turbos. I love them, but I just couldn't handle one at this point in time.

    10k is a strange amount. Especially with the market fluctuating like it is. Every day something is cheaper/more expensive.

    Your best bet will be to just keep reading and looking.

    Do you want turbo, n/a, AWD, RWD, etc..Tons of options
    Hehe, if I could buy back my old car for $10K, I would.

    Here are the criteria for this $10K auto-x/track/daily driver:
    1) manual transmission
    2) RWD
    3) Either aspiration (FI or NA)
    4) Capable and proven chassis

    Here's the list I've been considering:
    1) E30 M3
    2) 951
    3) E30 325i
    4) 1995 318ti

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Current:
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    Past:
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    1998 E36 BMW ///M3/4
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    2008 E60 BMW 550i M-Sport

  14. #14
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    Hey, I too come from forums.rennlist.com Seriously, those 944 ppl are GURUS beyond belief. Many of the race and there are several aftermarket tuners who are there to support their products, including Speedforceracing and Anderson Motorworks. The 951 with M030 is definitely a great car with chips, boost enhancer it can blow many cars away. 167 mph top speed iirc. I'm glad to see so many bmw owners who praise the 951. Seems like these days, with so many M3 owners not understanding the true potential of the car, it gives bmw owners a sorta bad name.

    Anyways, 951s arent THAT bad to maintain as long as u watch the timing belt/water pump and make sure you dont overload the head. There is a fine line between reliability and performance, so just be careful not to cross it. For $10k, you can easily get a pristine 951 while having dough leftover for repairs and maybe even some mods.

    The 944S2 is great because it is a 3.0L 4cylinder.....massive torque throughout the rev range. The 968 is also another good choice, it includes variocam, but it doesnt go for less than around $14k. The S2 can be had for around the same price as the turbo, just a little harder to find. As you pointed out, available with same brakes and suspension along with turbo look (front nose and rear valence) but with the beefy 3.0L. Largest 4 cylinder produced in the world at that time (production cars). Anyways, feel free to ask questions at Rennlist, those guys have been around cars forever. They live and eat porsches. Scary sometimes how much they know.

  15. #15
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    Thanks Stupenal. I've been lurking around rennlist for a while. I've always checked their classifieds and have recently been reading up on the 924/944/968 board.

    I've always been impressed by 951's, and have always wanted a 911 since forever. Porsches are great cars and have the history and pedigree to prove it.

    I was looking into buying a 951 a few years ago (for a nice little project), but was kinda of steered away by maintence costs, the resale prices being slightly higher (than what I had to spend), and the apparent lack of well-maintained examples (in my price range) for sale.

    Since then, my living situation has changed to allow me to easily work on cars, and I am thinking some to most of the costs could be abetted by self-labor.

    This car is no doubt going to see some decent track time (1 event every 2 months) and some heavy autocrossing (just about every weekend). I just want to make sure I get a car that can take me to the track and run at the track/autocross and pick up some groceries fairly reliably.

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Current:
    2016 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS

    Past:
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    1998 E36 BMW ///M3/4
    2000 E39 BMW ///M5
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  16. #16
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    I would go for the E30 325. I like those cars. When I drove one that had a chip, exhaust, and supension I was actually impressed. Very fun to toss around. I have heard that they go forever too. Get one of those: do the suspension some mior power mods and get a roll bar and your set!
    -Alex

    "The noblest of ideas have always been protected by warriors."

  17. #17
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    If you are only looking to spend 10g's are you sure that you can afford maintenance and insurance on an M or a porsche? Is that pretty much your whole savings? Might want to get some ins. quotes first and keep reading about the maintenance, as it looks you are doing. I was pondering the same things you are but just dont think its feasable right now.

  18. #18
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    I'd bet all the specific car issues have counterpoints in the other...it basically comes down to if you want to drive a BMW or a Porsche.

    But you could step up to a 318ti and get a seriously cool car.
    Last edited by Kos-motate139; 03-14-2003 at 08:29 PM.

    Andy Chittum -- Lemans Karting | BTM Motorwerks NASA Spec e30 | US Touring Car | Racecarnology Blog

  19. #19
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    I would vote for a E30 325i and then with the money left over, do some suspension mods and tune everything up nicely. This car can be very fast, and it is a great car for the auto-x course.

    A 10k budget for an E30 M3 including maintence etc is a little low in my opinion, most cars are going for a little over that. It all depends on what you want to do.

    I suggest that you take a look at some regular E30's first. They are very good cars.
    Bryan K.
    1988 ///M3
    1997 E36 ///M3 Project
    Texas A&M Formula SAE

  20. #20
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    I'm going to add my E30 325 recommendation, awesome autox car, and you can find a nice example for less than half the cost of an E30 M3. Also, with a 4.10 diff they're faster in a straight line than an E30 M3, with much more useable torque. Highly recommended for track or autox.

  21. #21
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    I like EVOIIIM3's answer. BUT for all practical purposes, the E30 M3 is NOT a good daily driver AND autocrosser AND track car. The M3 has no get-up-and-go unless you flog it, kinda like the Honda S2K. You will need cam(s), lightweight flywheel, chip, and honestly, the 2.5L crank (87mm) and pistons to really make the car move on the street. I LOVE driving the hell out of my M3, so I don't mind that I have to wind it up beyond 5k to really get moving. They are incredible track cars, but so are the Porsches. $750 for control arms sounds like highway robbery to me, but E30 control amrs also break under track use. They're $200 a piece for the LW aluminum ones. You can easily spin a rod bearing on older stock S14s, so that's another concern (a $2000 concern just to replace the crank, bearings, and bottom end seals). Pray nothing else goes. Track/Auto-X use requires an oil pan baffle ($50) and Accusump ($200) to prevent oil starvation and the aforementioned bearing failure. Find out how many 2.5L M3s are out there because the 2.3L spun a bearing.

    Anyway, both the Porsche and the E30 M3 are awesome track cars. The Porsche can be had for less up front, but the M3 doesn't really have a lot on it that breaks, either.

    So do you want a Porsche or do you want a BMW?
    James Muskopf
    RRT Racing
    DC Metro's premier BMW service and racing facility

  22. #22
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    Thanks all for responding- this has been a very informational thread for me.

    I began this whole search for an E30 325is and have found myself fluctuating over 5 different cars. But I guess that's just a part of being a "gear head."

    I think I've OVER-emphasized the duty of this car being a daily driver. Since I live right where I work and go to school, the car will, at most, see 1-2 hours of driving per week. The rest will be sitting in my garage and going to and from autocross and track.

    Andy,
    Right about the time I sold my car, I had found a DASC 318ti. It had some minor suspension mods and sounded in reasonable condition. However, he had sold the car 10 mins before I called. : The car had 115K+ miles, but he was only asking $6500. I want a 318ti SOLELY because I can use my Fikse's for the track and autocross, and because you've impressed me greatly with one.

    Thanks again for the opinions/comments!

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Last edited by RUddin3; 03-15-2003 at 09:59 PM.
    Current:
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    Past:
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    1998 E36 BMW ///M3/4
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    2008 E60 BMW 550i M-Sport

  23. #23
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    Hey Raza..

    You might want to look into an e30 325is (or any e30 for that matter if you plan on swapping)..With an m50 swap (2.5l 325/525 engine) and some stripping, they can easily beat e36 328's, and with some mods to the m50, hang with m3's..There are more than a few examples online..

    Supposedly one guy who has a STRIPPED e30 325is with an m50, and the engine is completely stock, and he can hang with e36 m3's..

    That would be great for track/auto-x, because it also doesn't destroy the structural integrity of the car. Plus you don't have to worry about boost.

    My $0.02

  24. #24
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    The 944 just seems like a better car to me. You can have crazy power whenever you want. If I only had to have 1 car, it would be the 944. A turbo upgrade and your at 350+ hp. Very easy car to mod. However, if it had to be a track car I think I would take the e30 m3. I like NA cars on the track.

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by RUddin3

    Right about the time I sold my car, I had found a DASC 318ti. It had some minor suspension mods and sounded in reasonable condition. However, he had sold the car 10 mins before I called. : The car had 115K+ miles, but he was only asking $6500. I want a 318ti SOLELY because I can use my Fikse's for the track and autocross, and because you've impressed me greatly with one.

    Drive Safely,
    Raza
    Figure the ti starts as similar weight to the e30s...that's its major benefit...particularly when engine swaps come into the picture. That and the Fiske issue, of course.

    Andy Chittum -- Lemans Karting | BTM Motorwerks NASA Spec e30 | US Touring Car | Racecarnology Blog

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