Tire suggestions

**Dakar_M3** · 02-27-2003, 05:06 PM

Anyone have any advice/preferences in tires for auto-xing on with the stock 17x7.5" (non-staggered) M3 wheels? I was contemplating going with the Kuhmo Mx's but they only come in a 45 series, whereas my stock wheels come in 40 series...

**LY95** · 02-27-2003, 06:57 PM

You'll get many suggestions from others, but if you plan to stay with your stock wheels, I think the best tires you can get for the money are Yokohama AVS Sports. I've had them on my 95 and their grip is just amazing in the dry and during track time...

BFGs are great tires as well. Good Luck.

**Def** · 02-27-2003, 07:15 PM

Get a separate set of OE rims and mount some Kumho Ecsta V700 235/40-17's on there.

You'll be much more competitive in Bstock and can get some harder tires for the street so they will wear longer(Yokohama ES100's look to have good treadlife and grip for a daily driver tire).

**///Mracer** · 02-28-2003, 09:35 AM

Definitly get a 40 series tire, to be the most competitive I would get R-rubber - 235/40/17 and use them for auto-x only. OR you can go with what I just got.

**singletrack1** · 02-28-2003, 02:53 PM

Make sure you get the ecsta's shaved. They suck at full tread and tend to chunk/wear funny if you start at full tread. If you get Victoracers, you can use full treaded without any problems.

If you are starting out, I would recommend the Toyo RA-1's. They are a bit slower, but you will get like 4X more wear out of them and are more consistant. Also, you can run the toyo's on the street, but you will get less than 10K miles from them.

Hope this helps.

Bill

**John in Houston** · 02-28-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by singletrack1
Make sure you get the ecsta's shaved. They suck at full tread and tend to chunk/wear funny if you start at full tread. If you get Victoracers, you can use full treaded without any problems.
Bill

Damn Bill... I don't have any problems with full tread depth Ecstas. They are wearing absolutely fine after running the ever-livin' piss out of them at the PRO event last weekend.

Damn, guess I need to come to Austin and show you guys how to break-in a set of tires

!

John.

PS-FWIW, my last set of Ecstas had a funny wear pattern (and they were full depth)... but the pattern went away after I added more negative camber. The new ones (only the PRO event on them) look to be wearing more evenly than the last set. Maybe a change in compound????? Only the Kumho knows!

**whakiewes** · 02-28-2003, 03:45 PM

If only a track tire, then get the V700's. Great tire for track only IMO. If you want a tire that is drivable on the street, and possibly with a little bit of rain, the the Toyo RA-1 is my favorite. During the summer months, thats all that I run, street and track. I also have a set of stock wheels that hold some crappy wal-mart tires for the occasion sliding/throttle steering/drifting/powersliding.

If you would like to order a set of RA-1's, I can get you killer pricing on them, shaved and un shaved. I reccomend not shaving them unless you have an event ASAP.

Wes

**Jim O.** · 02-28-2003, 03:46 PM

Dakar_M3 - Before you get wound up in all this R tire talk, with Kumho V700's or Toyo RA-1's, how much autocrossing experience do you have, and what do you really want to do? If you're just starting out in autocross, it's a lot easier to learn if you stick with street tires. If you have a lot of experience, want to be really competitive, and have an extra set of wheels, then R tires may be the way to go.

For street tires, the Falken Azenis seems to be the hot ticket with all the street tire classes, but I don't know if they offer a decent size for your car. I've heard good things about the Kumho MX, but I haven't tried them. The Kumho 712 is a good cheap tire, but it isn't especially fast in autox. Otherwise, most of the mid-priced street tires are pretty comparable - tires like the Toyo Proxes T1s, the Yokohama AVS Sports, etc., etc., etc. Probably your best bet is to read the reviews on TireRack.com to see which tire fits your needs the best.

BTW - the strut brace, X-brace, rear sway bar, and tranny mounts all take you out of B-Stock. You should probably be running in Street Mod, since the tranny mounts aren't legal in BSP.

Jim

**Dakar_M3** · 02-28-2003, 04:13 PM

I started last year when I purchased my M3... I participated in about 3 auto-x's, and 1 Hill-Climb event... This year, the local auto-x schedule has doubled in size to 20 events and a couple more Hill-Climbs and because of some extenuating circumstances, I hope to be running out at Portland International Raceway... so, I've been trying to locate a second set of wheels and am unsure as to which ones. I was going to get another set of stock Motorsport 17x7.5 non-staggered wheels and run those. Just do like you guys have said and swap them out for events.

**Gene V** · 02-28-2003, 04:27 PM

7.5s may be a bit narrow if you're going to run anything wider than a 225...

**John in Houston** · 02-28-2003, 05:05 PM

FWIW, the 235x40 Ecsta V700 would probably work really well on a 7.5 or 8" wheel.

I run them on an 8.5" wheel and personally find them to be rather small for the wheel (for Auto-x that is). I think they would fit much better on a narrower wheel.

I don't like the 225x45 Victoracers. Too damn tall.

**frayed** · 02-28-2003, 07:48 PM

IMO, 235's on 8.5's stretch the tire out and give it a great footprint. The Ecstas loved it on 8.5's on the track, gripped like demons.

**Jim O.** · 03-01-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Dakar_M3
I started last year when I purchased my M3... I participated in about 3 auto-x's, and 1 Hill-Climb event... This year, the local auto-x schedule has doubled in size to 20 events and a couple more Hill-Climbs and because of some extenuating circumstances, I hope to be running out at Portland International Raceway... so, I've been trying to locate a second set of wheels and am unsure as to which ones. I was going to get another set of stock Motorsport 17x7.5 non-staggered wheels and run those. Just do like you guys have said and swap them out for events.

If the 3 autoxs and one hill climb is your total lifetime high performance driving experience, I'd suggest going through at least one more set of street tires before you go to the R tires. If you really want to, you can get a second set of street tires, and use them exclusively for autox/hill climb usage. Just put them on a second set of rims, and swap them for the events. A lot of the STS guys I know do this with their Falken Azenis tires.

Street tires are much easier to learn on. I strongly believe that going to R tires or upgraded suspensions too early create bad habits, and slower drivers than if the driver spent more time honing his skills with a more forgiving setup first.

If you really want to insist on going to R tires, then I'd suggest something like the Yokohama A032 or Toyo RA-1 - both are OK beginner R tires, and are a little easier to drive than the Kumho V700 (Victoracer or Ecsta) or the Hoosier A3S03.

Jim

**Dakar_M3** · 03-01-2003, 07:38 PM

I'm not really understanding the logic behind going another season on street tires besides getting more experience... The street tires are not sticking at all and I'm not able to go as fast because of this limitation... The car doesn't hold its line well with these street tires and squeels 10 times worse than the stock brakes ever did... I wasn't planning to run out and get full slicks but do need suggestions other than the Kuhmo 712's or Yokohama ES100's that I was going to get for the one set of wheels that I daily drive on... I'm very close to having another stock set of Motorsport 17x7.5" wheels and will need to put some decent rubber on them...

**GSBMW325is** · 03-01-2003, 08:13 PM

Hey Dakar M3,
Were you at Octoberfast in Pocatello last year? I was the guy in the red STS 325is that helped out with your PS fluid. Given where you live, a second set of wheels/tires is absolutely your best choice. Also, given your experience level and car prep level, details like 8" wide vs. 7.5" wheels aren't that important. Another set of 7.5" with 235/40 series tire is great. Just find what is within your budget. If you get really hooked on the sport, you can upgrade to the optimal sizes down the road.
If you want a tire that autocrosses good, and is an excellent tire for the Boise summers, the Falken Azenis Sport is your tire. The 225/45ZR-17 is the size. Don't let the 225 width fool you: These are wider than both of the 235/40-17 tires I have in my garage(Kuhmo 712 and Michelin Pilot Sport MXX3). I believe Falken must use Hoosiers ruler when it comes to tire width (Hoosiers tend to run wider than equivalent sized R tire competitors). These Azenis are what I run, on 17x7.5 Motorsport wheels, in STS. If you go this route, you can put good winter tires on one set of wheels and have good summer/autox tires on the other.
If you want to step up to R tires, I'd go with full tread Kuhmo Victoracers. Much grippier than any street tire, and they will last awhile.

**Dakar_M3** · 03-02-2003, 03:29 AM

Hey GSBMW325is,
Yes, I was!!! Long time NO hear, huh? How have you been? Thanks again for the help in quieting down the noisy power steering pump... Haven't heard a peep from it since Octoberfast... I've been trying to find my next hobby over the fall/winter and have been using a few of my friends Rotax Max karts... what a blast!!! Too bad I don't have a few grand laying around to get one...

I did almost lose the motor a few months back... A coolant hose under the intake, that feeds the heater core to the car sprung a leak and started leaking coolant fluid all over the place... A bad $3 hose was the culprit.

Anyway, I'm getting the car ready for this season and thought I'd get some suggestions before dropping too much money on the wrong tires... I should have another set of Motorsport rims within a week and a half to use as the other set of wheels. I'm still using those piece of sh!* Nankyang tires that came on the car when we raced last year... I've been trying to shred them every chance I get but they are just holding up too well. I will be taking the car to Portland a few times this year on business and plan on racing it at Portland International Raceway...

Where can I get the Falken Azenis at a decent price? Have you seen our schedule this year? What a busy season... you've got to come up and race up here?!? Here's the link: http://www.snakeriverscca.org/

Stay in touch... talk to you later.

**dngo** · 03-02-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Dakar_M3
I'm not really understanding the logic behind going another season on street tires besides getting more experience... The street tires are not sticking at all and I'm not able to go as fast because of this limitation... The car doesn't hold its line well with these street tires and squeels 10 times worse than the stock brakes ever did... I wasn't planning to run out and get full slicks but do need suggestions other than the Kuhmo 712's or Yokohama ES100's that I was going to get for the one set of wheels that I daily drive on... I'm very close to having another stock set of Motorsport 17x7.5" wheels and will need to put some decent rubber on them...

The reason is that street tires are much, much more forgiving that R compound tires. Street tires will gradually break away at the limit with plenty of warning, while R tires will grip well up to the limit of adhesion then break away suddenly. Remember that the first thing you should be concentrating on is learning how to control your car, not going fast. The speed will come naturally as you get smoother and learn how to manage the traction you have. You'll learn a lot more on street tires and ultimately become much faster on the race tires.

If your tires are really squealing that much, it's likely that you are overdriving the tires. Is your car pushing a lot through corners? Grippier tires will help you, but they're no substitute for being able to coax the maximum performance from the equipment you have.

When I autocross on my Kumho R compound tires, I have to be very, very fast when correcting for things like oversteer. With street tires, I feel like I have all day to decide what to do once one end of the car starts to let go. Personally, I didn't move to R compound tires until I started to beat most other cars in my class on streets (even those on R tires - amazing how satisfying that is.

)

YMMV.

Dave

**negcamber** · 03-02-2003, 12:13 PM

You definitely should get a second set of wheels and either run Kuhmos (if you run mostly on asphalt) or Hoosiers (if you run mostly on concrete). One year running on street tires is enough experience before moving to R-compounds. Besides, if you run 20 events this year, it will be WAAAY cheaper to have race rubber than to use street compounds. Your street tires will be gone in no time and a good street tire is nearly as expensive as race rubber.

With you mods, you really are not legal for B-Stock...so you are open to a much larger variety of wheel sizes. I believe Bob Tunnel's website has an excellent write up on the setup he used on his former street prepared e36m3. He recommends 245/40/17 all around (those are Hoosiers, you might have to go with 245 front and 255 rear if you run Kuhmos). It would probably be best to run 17x9 at each corner (write to Bob's email and ask...he will answer). The Fikse, IFG or Kodiak wheels would be very nice, but expensive. I would get the lightest 17x9 wheel I could afford.

http://www.tunnellracing.com/M3toBSP.html

**Dakar_M3** · 03-03-2003, 12:53 AM

The tires that are squeeling so bad are these Nankyang things that came on the car, when I purchased it... I don't even think that they are 'H' rated tires... Some of the locals just laugh at them and I tell them that I want to shred them before dropping cash on new ones... But when your M3 is also a daily driver, you're got to use what is getting me to work right? Anyway, another set of wheels are in the works and I think that I'm going to go with GSBMW325is suggestion and get some Falken Azenis Sports... Anyone else used these tires before? I road with him last year with these and the car is stuck like glue... He ended up beating me by and average of 3-4 seconds for the weekend... Some of it has to be the tires with a large percentage of the time difference being that he is an awesome driver.

**Def** · 03-03-2003, 02:53 AM

The problem with Falken Azenis is that they don't really come in the proper size for E36 M3's.

There is a 225/45-17 which would be fine for the front of a staggered 96+ M3, but would be too tall for a '95 M3 with a 3.15 Diff. Your gearing would suck. Then there is a 245/45-17, which again - is WAY too tall, especially for a '95 M3 with the longer diff.

If you're wanting a more 'intermediate' tire, try out the Toyo RA-1. I hear it will last quite a while, and actually gets FASTER as you wear it down. This is completely opposite other R-compound tires. Should last quite a while if you only autox on them.

If you absolutely MUST have street tire, look into some Kumho MX's in 245/40-17. A little bit too wide for a 7.5" wheel, but should work just fine for you. If you don't feel like going that wide, try the 225/45-17. Same sidewall height, but less width. I'd suspect that even with the 245 not having the best footprint - it'd still be a tad faster with enough neg. camber.

I think that after a few events and getting more serious into autox'ing you'd feel disappointed with your decision of going to street tires on a separate set of rims.

I know that at my last event(number 7 for me, almost a full season under my belt) - the thought of getting R-compounds popped into my head more than once. I find myself getting 'kinda' repeatable results, and being able to tell when the car is at the limit much better than when I first started. I am waiting a while longer though - and have a feeling that by the end of this year I'll probably have plunged into the R-compound gang to stay competitive.

Still don't know if I want to move from B-stock to BSP though - as that will affect my wheel buying decision. Of course - the higher the class, the more money, and the further from stock your car becomes. That's not always a good thing with a daily driver.

**John V** · 03-03-2003, 09:49 AM

You'll be much more competitive in Bstock and can get some harder tires for the street so they will wear longer(Yokohama ES100's look to have good treadlife and grip for a daily driver tire).

Well, seeing his listed mods, he can't run in BStock anyway... I'm assuming the picture of his car was taken before he did those mods ..

I agree wholeheartedly, though. I don't see a purpose to running street tires if you're serious about autocrossing. I ran street rubber for two years, then stepped up to R-comps and ran them for three. The last three years I've been running street tire classes (with a different car). This year I'm jumping in headfirst with the M3 - none of this street tire BS.

John V

**Dakar_M3** · 03-03-2003, 12:26 PM

You guys are correct... that is an older picture of when I competed in a local hill climb at our local ski resort... I got bumped out of BS and into BSP because I added an AA strut bar... Kind of sucked, but if you're going to play, you've got to play by the rules, right? I figured that I liked the way the car felt with the strut bar, so I added the x-brace and then sway bars... if you're going to be moved up in a class, why not upgrade to better parts in the process... I appreciate your input on the tire size because I was a little worried about the 45 series tire height... I've contemplating and looking for a new diff to get a little taller gearing... maybe something like a 3.23 or a 3.38 so that the car can be a little quicker out of the turns... Right now with the stock 3.15, it seems to lag a little until the engine gets up to speed... Thought I'd get a lighter weight flywheel for that but that is a ways out. What about the Yokohama Es100 or AVS tires? I'm trying to keep the choice in line with what Tirerack has because the Toyo's and Falken's are sold locally but cost an arm and a leg because they are NOT stocked...

**John V** · 03-03-2003, 12:47 PM

Going numerically high is actually shorter gearing, but I nkow what you mean...

John V

**Dakar_M3** · 03-03-2003, 01:54 PM

So, how much belief is put into a tire manufacturers specs on tires? Toyo recommends/says that the Toyo RA-1 for the 17x7.5 Motorsport rims are 205/40/17? What's up with that? They say that the 235/40/17 tires are for 8, 8.5, 9.5 inch rims... Hmmm, now the tires selection is getting even more confusing, huh?

**John V** · 03-03-2003, 03:27 PM

The 235 refers to the widest section of the tire. 235mm is about 9 1/4 inches, so that makes sense. Running wide wheels will make for the stiffest feeling sidewall and the best response.

Of course from mfg to mfg the measurements will differ slightly.

Personally, I feel like the 235 is about as wide as I'd run on the 7.5" wide wheels though you could probably get away with a 245 if you really wanted to push it.

I'm sure there are seasoned M3 autocrossers who have had direct experiences to relay to us. This will be my first year in the M3. Maybe my local region will let me run with the novices

John V

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