Swapping in a 210mm Euro Evolution differential

[vjlax18]

Here's the rear halfshaft from my car from a long long time ago in a suspension far far away...

It's the larger style. I do seem to remember seeing a 95M3 with the smaller ones though.

[DaveAZ]

Here's the rear halfshaft from my car from a long long time ago in a suspension far far away...

It's the larger style. I do seem to remember seeing a 95M3 with the smaller ones though.

Thanks for posting that- It is odd; that does look like the one in the pic from England that I was told is tubular.

I'll ask Alex Lipowich in Chicago if he could take a photo of the US vs. The Euro Tubular. I can't imagine this many people thinking these are different if they are the same.

I haven't seen 1996-up US M3 half shafts to compare. I know my 1995 M3 sway bars are smaller than 1996-up. No one mentioned a half shaft difference in the US that I read before.

[vjlax18]

I have the rear trailing arms/hubs/brakes and halfshafts from a 97M3 sitting waiting to go on my 325 and they are also the larger ones. The 325 I have has the smaller ones. FYI, the p/n listed in the ETK now lists all M3's (US and Euro) as having the same halfshafts.

[DaveAZ]

hallo dave,ik begin deze winter met een project en zoek een adres in nederland om mn differentieel sterker te maken,ik wil 2.93 gears en een quaife gaan gebruiken,kan ik een diff gebruiken van 3.2?hij moet 700pk aankunnen, ik heb een m3 e36 3.0,ik hoop dat je een adres weet!mvgr etienne oost

So I got this in my PM box. It is in Dutch. I don't speak dutch, but my girlfriend does (go figure!) so she translated it for me. Too bad she does not speak car- I'm betting my response won't be well car spoken in Dutch.

"This winter I am beginning a project. I am looking for a source in the Netherlands to (empower) my differential. I want 2.93 gears and a quaife. Can I use a differential of 3.2? It must handle 700pk (paardenkracht = horsepower.) I have an M3 e36 3.0, I hope that you know an address in for me! With kind regards, Etienne Oost"
__________________________________________________ _____________

Mr. Oost is getting some boost! 700 HP!

If it were me, I'd get the 3.2 entire rear end assembly, brake to brake.

ik zou in dit geval de gehele 3.2 achterkant, van de ene rem tot de andere rem nemen. Assen, differentieel, differentiele steun geraamte, etc.

I have no idea if Quaife does anything for the 210mm differential.

Where in Holland? I've never been there. Hash bars and legal prostitution? Sounds fun.

Where to find one in Holland? My GF came up with these:

http://www.auto.nl/linkpagina/index.php?id=9
http://www.auto.nl/linkpagina/index.php?id=28
http://www.auto.nl/marktplaats/index.php

succes!

EDIT: "daytona M3 wrote: sorry i made a mistake! this message was for =BA= ,i was reading the thread and picked the wrong name to send a pm, thanks for the links, i thought you were living in holland, i saw a old thread over a diiferential, yes you can get hash legal here and the prostitutes also ,that is very normal here hehe, greets etienne

[Volf]

I hear about people busting their stock 188mm ring gear ALL THE TIME.

Except not.

[milKt]

[JamesM3M5]

I hear about people busting their stock 188mm ring gear ALL THE TIME.

Except not.

Actually, you do hear about high HP and high torque cars breaking 188mm diffs often. One guy twisted the output flange shafts at the splines until they snapped. Andy Watts has gone through 2 4.45 diffs recently (bad luck, I guess?), and I've seen street driven E34's drop pinion shafts and bearings. The 210mm diff is a great upgrade for turbo cars, drag racers, and V8 swaps of any brand.

[mike radowski]

good thread

[3literheater]

Subscribed

[ScotcH]

Here's the rear halfshaft from my car from a long long time ago in a suspension far far away...

It's the larger style. I do seem to remember seeing a 95M3 with the smaller ones though.

I have the thinner half-shafts in my 95 M3. In our other car, we just swapped in a 98 M3 rear subframe, and it had the thicker half-shafts. So it seems they changed at some point ... not sure when, but probably in 96, like everything else.

[Fair]

Dave, excellent write-up and lots of pics. Kudos on the research! Don't listen to the haters...

I have an E46M3 210mm LSD diff sitting in the shop but its a heavy mofo at 109 pounds! Lots of cast steel in there.

As for reinforced subframes, yes, there are a few key weak spots that should be tackled if you are using a 188mm or 210mm. The rubber diff mounting bushings are pretty sloppy, too, and allow a lot of movement of the diff within the subframe and the subframe relative to the chassis.

Our Alpha E36 LS1 as been competing with a 3.91 USE36M3 188mm diff for the better part of a year, using 17x11 wheels and 315/35/17 R compounds. Low speed events where it should take quite a torque beating (mostly 1st and 2nd gear stuff). Stock '96-99 tubular M3 halfshafts. Delrin subframe and diff bushings. So far, so good but I am not going to "wait for it to break".

This winter we're going to have our fabricator (DPH) swap in a Ford aluminum 8.8" aluminum '99-03 Cobra IRS differential into our ~400hp Alpha car (maybe wait until spring on this one) and the 700hp (post-shakedown motor) Beta LS1 car. There's plenty of room within the stock E36 subframe, and it will get modified and beefed up to hold it. Should drop 25-30 pounds, yet will be stronger than even the largest 210mm (8.2") BMW diff, and gears are so cheap its not funny ($150 from Ford Motorsport) as are diffs ($450-500 for Torsen T2R).



So far the 188 has held up in our car, but I suspect this has been due to good luck and some beefing up of the mounts/etc more than the ultimate strength of the 188.

[vjlax18]

Actually, you do hear about high HP and high torque cars breaking 188mm diffs often. One guy twisted the output flange shafts at the splines until they snapped. Andy Watts has gone through 2 4.45 diffs recently (bad luck, I guess?), and I've seen street driven E34's drop pinion shafts and bearings. The 210mm diff is a great upgrade for turbo cars, drag racers, and V8 swaps of any brand.

ProSolo's can do wonders for a diff!

[DaveAZ]

My thread is revived and due to an unexpected love affair between my M3 and a pole I still haven't tried to install the diff. Hopefully I will be doing something with it soon, as I bought 2 E36 cars this week (both basket cases for projects.)

Another thought I had considered: once you lighten up the E36 by pulling all the fluff out, you lose that 50/50 weight ratio that you bought the car for in the first place. Wouldn't a little extra weight in the back that is low to the ground be helpful in restoring your corner weighting?

[Fair]

Another thought I had considered: once you lighten up the E36 by pulling all the fluff out, you lose that 50/50 weight ratio that you bought the car for in the first place. Wouldn't a little extra weight in the back that is low to the ground be helpful in restoring your corner weighting?

This is true - once you gut an E36 it tends to get lighter in the back than the front. The LS1 doesn't help matters, as the all aluminum OHV V8 is about the same weight an a BMW M50-6.



Our goal is to keep lightening this car (another 200 pounds) then ballast up to class minimum weight, with the ballast located as low and rearward as possible, which should improve bias numbers a bit. Worst case scenario is the car is still freagin light and has a tick of front bias - it handles fine right now at a 46% rear bias (with driver). I'll take light and not-perfectly-weight-biased over a good bit heavier and a textbook 50-50% (personally, I'd rather have a chassis with a rearward bias). Being lighter wins.

I would never add weight just to improve bias, only to meet class minimum weights and/or to improve some other performance aspect. We thought briefly about a C5 Corvette T56 transaxle swap, but the work required would be extensive. Sure would move some weight to the back, tho! The fab work/cost to put a Ford 8.8" in an E36 would be similar to say... an E46M3 210mm diff with the E46 housing (altho it looks like the EuroM3 210mm swap is a lot easier). I'll tend to go with the stronger part (Ford) rather than the heavier one (BMW), given similar costs and fab work to do both.

Right now the E36 188mm unit is working behind our LS1, and we're going to keep beating on it every chance we get. Keep in mind: having a significantly lighter chassis definitely helps remove some stress on the 188 unit's bearings, gears and mounts - its easier on parts to accelerate a 2550 pound car than a 3100 pound car.

[pbonsalb]

Another issue to consider in addition to the added weight of the 210 over the 188 is the added drag. The Metric Mechanics website suggests that the added drag of a larger case diff may have the same effect as reducing the gearing by one stage; i.e., a 168 with a 3.73 will accelerate as well as a 188 with a 3.91. If you need one, you need one, but if you go by the bigger is better policy even if unneeded, you may be losing.

Philip Bradley

[enda320]

So how are people getting on with this? i'l be doing a similar conversion to a '92 325 NV
First off, in the UK, we call the big one that runs to the back a propshaft and the diff to hub ones are driveshafts to us, so it might get a little confusing as a US driveshaft is the big one, and the little ones are halfshafts, so bear that in mind if something doesn't make sense.

Anyway, i've just picked up a complete 3.2 rear end, just apart from the roll bar. the prop shaft was still connected, and on "extracting" it, it's dumped a lot of grease and a large ball bearing. The 3.2 seems to use a CV joint rather than a UJ like many other models. i'll clear the grease out and see if i can fit it all back together, if not, it can be bought seperate, listed at $177 on realoem.

it has previously done the subframe rip, so thats all welded up again with the plates in (spacer rings according to BMW, it seems they don't want to admit to it being for reinforcing..)

the back can be bolted up fairly easy, just a few service parts needed, handbrake cables are chewed up a bit, center bearing looks a mess, but i'll need to get it to mate up with the rest of the 325.
the prop donut is way bigger, so i know it won't bolt onto my transmission, plus it'd be too short as shaft was shorter to allow for the 6th gear cog on the 3.2 manual.

i've seen a few vague references to just using the rear section of the propshaft, where i guess you seperate the splined middle, and this should push into the 325 front section.
does this sound right to anyone?

LS1 conversions uses this rear end too, but with a different tranny, i can't just assume that everything will line up easy.

and before people say it's a huge heavy lump, i already know as i loaded it into the back of my car earlier!, but it solves a worn diff on mine, ups the ratio to a 3.23, adds an LSD, gets me larger rear brakes ( my current ones have rounded off bleed nipples read to fall off) and i have a wheel bearing starting to make noise. Add to that it was cheap, and i've taken out a flock of birds with the one stone!

[enda320]

OK, I've got the offer of a 3.0 propshaft as well,so plenty of spares, but there are quite a few things i have found out so far

evo prop -
1367mm -shorter due to the added 6th gear
CV joint at rear, 6 bolt with 86mm PCD on the bolts, and 25 teeth (which i guess means splines)
Donut - Used a large donut, 96mm PCD, M12 bolts

euro 3.0
1469mm length, so 102mm longer
CV joint at rear, same as above
Donut - same as above

325
1345mm auto,
1512mm manual, so 145mm longer than an evo, longest of the lot
UJ at rear to 4 bolt flange,
2 types donut-78mm PCD 110mm diameter,, M12 bolts or a 96mmm pcd


325 stuff - the auto used the bigger 96mm M3 size donut (although possibly a different compound) and the manual 325 used the smaller version. the 328 always had the larger one

the larger donut manuals had a different output shaft on the gearbox, so unsure of whether a flange swap here would work. The greatest hope comes from a few more observations.

the center bearing bolts onto the chassis, and e36 shells are all the same, so the bearing will be in the same position. this holds the rear section, so any differences in length will be on the front section.
the center bearing itself is always listed as 55mm/30mm so the splined join between the 2 halves is the same diameter in all cases, often the same bearing is used, just with different suspension for the M3.

so- providing they didn't change the splines, any rear axle / prop combo should match any other half if they meet at the centre bearing join

[Tim95M3]

I hear about people busting their stock 188mm ring gear ALL THE TIME.

Except not.

lol. the truth

[DaveAZ]

lol. the truth

Says the guy with the 1995 M3; the model that had severe differential problems due to the factory neglecting to loctite which allowed bolts to back out and chew up gears...

So according to you, all those people who spend all that money at Diffsonline and other places to build their diffs up are wasting their money- the things never break. If you told them sooner they could have spent that money on much more needed items like smoked Front corners, clears all around, DEPO Euro Ellipsoids, Umnitza 6000k HIDs and lamin-X Yellow Fog covers.

Actually it is usually the pinion that trashes before the ring gear, after the front mounting bolt pops a few times. I guess you don't have the horsepower to worry about such things.

Enda320, I have been reading the king's english to understand your posts.
So far i understand (as you explained):

In England
a US half shaft is a driveshaft
a US driveshaft is a propshaft

So the Propshaft lengths you are giving are driveshaft lengths.

I'm not sure if all the donut/U-joint differences are the same on this side of the pond. I know that the US 1995 M3 has a six bolt mating point between the differential and the driveshaft (UK propshaft.) I planned to just use a straight driveshaft for mine (no center bearing) but your situation is different.

If you scroll down to my second post in this thread, there are two links to threads in UK forums where what you are doing specifically is discussed. Those guys should know if any stock propshaft will fit or if you need to use your original front half with a 3.2 rear half (which I think is the answer, but will require a shop to re-balance.)

Is a (UK) roll bar a (US) sway bar?

My car project is on the back burner until I get a title issue resolved on the car that I want to do all the work on.

[DD/M]

Says the guy with the 1995 M3; the model that had severe differential problems due to the factory neglecting to loctite which allowed bolts to back out and chew up gears...

So according to you, all those people who spend all that money at Diffsonline and other places to build their diffs up are wasting their money- the things never break. If you told them sooner they could have spent that money on much more needed items like smoked Front corners, clears all around, DEPO Euro Ellipsoids, Umnitza 6000k HIDs and lamin-X Yellow Fog covers.

I LOL'ed...

Keep up with the very informative thread!

Thank you.

[Tim95M3]

Says the guy with the 1995 M3; the model that had severe differential problems due to the factory neglecting to loctite which allowed bolts to back out and chew up gears...

So according to you, all those people who spend all that money at Diffsonline and other places to build their diffs up are wasting their money- the things never break. If you told them sooner they could have spent that money on much more needed items like smoked Front corners, clears all around, DEPO Euro Ellipsoids, Umnitza 6000k HIDs and lamin-X Yellow Fog covers.

Actually it is usually the pinion that trashes before the ring gear, after the front mounting bolt pops a few times. I guess you don't have the horsepower to worry about such things.

lol @#$% you man... i rebuilt a 3.46 lsd so i dont worry about such things... no need to try and teach me lessons here... but if it makes you feel smart, or significant. Fine.

[EMC]

Is a (UK) roll bar a (US) sway bar?

Probably. All the OEM manufacturers that I have worked for constantly tell you not to call them "sway bars"....They are supposed to be called "anti-roll bars".

[M3 Euro LTW]

Alex here...

First: I was under the impression that the Euro cars were the only ones that got the fatter, tubular axles (driveshafts for our euro friends). It appears that I may be wrong, but this was an honest mistake. I was unaware that late model E36 here got them as well. Believe me, I would not have bought the several sets I have in stock had I known this. Costs good money to bring stuff over.

Second: I do have several of these 3.2 diffs/carriers in stock. I personally put one into my car with NO MODIFICATIONS whatsoever, using my original 95M3 axles and driveshaft. Granted I had a 6 bolt driveshaft.

Third: This discussion about whether the 188 is "strong enough" or not is rather silly. For $750 you can have the EXACT sized diff (and carrier)that BMW saw fit to put in any of its 8 or 12 cylinder cars or M88/S38 engined cars or the euro S50B32. All these cars have in common significantly increased torque over the smaller engined cars, or over 300 HP from the factory. BMW watches its pennies like any other company and would not have put the extra weight and expense into the euro 3.2 if they didn't feel it was necessary.

If you've got the skills to personally build a 188 diff then you can probably achieve a reliable diff for increased HP needs. If you have to go to a specialist, you will pay for it and get what you pay for. (ie a good product) When I've bought race diffs from people like Dan, Blanton, Rowe etc.. the quality is undeniable, but its not cheap either. There are special covers you can add to dress up a 188, there are pumps you can add to cool them, and treatments, coatings, or "refreshing" that makes them last longer....

But these large case diffs drop right in, and you don't have to rebuild them if you're ok with 3.23 ratio to begin with.

Please continue with the thread.... great photos!

Alex.

[M3Alpine99]

There are a couple guys way over 350lb/ft of torque in the FI section.

Just saying.

[NeilM]

Alex here...
First: I was under the impression that the Euro cars were the only ones that got the fatter, tubular axles (driveshafts for our euro friends). It appears that I may be wrong, but this was an honest mistake.
Alex.

Good morning Alex. My 96 M3 has the larger diameter tubular halfshafts (I like that term, since it's unambiguous) so I imagine this to have been one of the many subtle changes BMW made with the OBD-II cars.

Just another data point.

Neil
96 M3 w/"Alex" 6-speed & home-built 3.73 diff