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Thread: Swapping in a 210mm Euro Evolution differential

  1. #76
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    Has anyone attempted a Ford 9" or 12 bolt GM in our cars yet?

  2. #77
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    Ford 8.8" Differential was done by Mike (aka Nash)
    http://nash8503.com/Conversion_Summary.html

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveAZ View Post
    Here is where the fun starts. I heard many rumors about all sorts of special parts required to install with the Evolution differential. My being in the US with the actual parts being across the pond proved to be a problem.

    I decided to try to deal specifically with England (UK) so I would not have a major language barrier. They may call a hood a "bonnet" but it is easier than translating German.

    I thought people actually in Europe may be more familiar with the swap and tracking down the parts, so I found a pair of BMW forums in England.
    BMW land UK
    e36coupe.com

    It turns out that over there it is far easier to swap out the entire subframe with everything attached than it is to just swap a differential. This makes sense for them, but not for someone who is in the US and doesn't want to ship a whole pallet overseas (which I almost did.)

    I found someone in the US who does import pallets of Evolution parts to sell to the US market. Alex Lipowich in Chicago

    Ebay has location specific sites including one that caters specifically to the UK. People list Evo parts on it, but shipping is expensive- price shipping first, and be sure the price you are quoted is in US dollars. Ebay UK

    You can also track down dismantlers in Europe who deal specifically with BMW's to have them ship directly to you:
    Euro BMW parts
    moseley motorsport
    Russ: M3 Spares
    Fantastic post.

    Roguls
    New York

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roguls View Post
    Fantastic post.
    Thanks! I just got compliments in my PM box, too. I wrote this stuff a year ago and it is coming to the surface again.

    Alex, who just replied to this thread, is the same Alex in the quote you made- I never knew he was on bimmerforums. What a life- getting paid to look at vaginas all day and playing with BMW's! I know mechanics who get paid to look at BMW's all day and play with vaginas. (He must get this all the time.)

    Alex is a good guy and a good resource for these parts in the US. He buys Evo spec parts in bulk from Euro recyclers by the pallet. His prices are typically less than you pay if you buy directly including his shipping to you within the US, and without the international hassles. (I bought my Evo rear subframe from him and it was less than directly from his supplier.)

    Quote Originally Posted by M3Alpine99 View Post
    There are a couple guys way over 350lb/ft of torque in the FI section.

    Just saying.
    And there isn't a chance that they have not spent $$$ to make their differentials handle it.

    Every person so far who brings up the great 188 isn't understanding that the comparison is both in their stock form. The 210 is a "bolt on and go" option. No rebuilding or improving required. Extra weight, yes; but no breaking mounting bolts, chewed up pinions, or expensive internal modifications. Not the weight weenie solution, but peace of mind.
    Last edited by DaveAZ; 02-09-2008 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #80
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    So is there a driveshaft solution when installing EVO subframe with a large diff, to a E36 325 M50?

  6. #81
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    OK - current findings- the half and half idea (evo rear and 325 front) is a no go, the UJ's are on seperate sides of the center bearing, so that hybrid would be semi-solid

    the 325 gearbox output flange is for the small donut/flex disc, and can't be swapped the the larger ZF one as used on 328's and M3's

    options -
    swap from getrag to ZF gearbox, and use a 3.0 M3 shaft,
    get the prop to a custom fabricator who will add the small flange from the 325 prop to 3.0 shaft
    last option, which i am thinking of - a 3 pointed adaptor plate which will increase the hole spacings to bolt onto the large donut

    the M driveshafts/propshafts don't have an extender section like the 325's do so you need to make sure of the correct lengths

    325 vs 328 - only change is gearbox, so the length changes are purely from the box and large donut

    328 vs M3 - difference here is the diff input and CV joint, so any changes here can be attributed totally to the 6 bolt input.
    as you can see on a pic on the 2 page i think, the 3.2 and 3.0 input flanges on the diff are the same length / distance from rear carrier, so from that, you should be able to work out lengths for any combination

    (bear in mind the 3.2 evo is a 6 sp, so a larger gearbox, and shorter prop

    Giftschrank Projekt

  7. #82
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    ok, i'm a weekend away from the conversion now.

    you could do with a brake upgrade before as evo rear discs and huge, 310mm or something, so maybe m3 hubs and brakes up front and the master cyl/ servo, or a e46 330 conversion.

    centre bearing - the actual bearing is the same but the carrier is different, i got an evo one as it could well be at a different height etc, there is a UJ there, but might as well go for the part it was designed with. if you get an evo prop/driveshaft the centre bearing mount will most likely be bent 6 ways from sunday.

    new rear CV joint - mine had a split boot rubber, and fell into a handfull of greasy balls so i freshened that up, others might be lucky.

    now - the tech stuff.

    from a 325 to a 328 / m3 gearbox, you loose 23mm, as the flange sticks out further.
    same at the diff end, the 6 bolt round flange is again 23mm out further than on the 325 4 bolt

    325 vs 328
    1515 / 1492 (23mm for the gearbox)

    328 vs 3.0 M3
    1492 / 1469 (thats another missing 23mm for the different diff flange)

    3.0 vs 3.2
    1469 / 1367 - (thats 102mm for the extra 6th gear.)

    as i'm using an evo prop on mine (no reason, just it was available)
    i'll need an extra 102mm(6th cog) + 23mm (gearbox flange)
    so the front half needs to be swapped to a 325 smaller input and have a 125mm stretch

    i brought the 2 front halves to a UK company called Proptech who specialise in custon work like this. Firstly, it turn out the flanges are "friction welded" so chopping out a flange wasn't an option, but the 2 cut be spliced in such a way to gain 125mm


    that centre weld is pretty much textbook, and both tube sections are 60mm.
    the thickening parts are of different diameters so you couldn't splice there.
    the white ends are me being paranoid that i'd end up with an awkward "vice-versa" missmatch, but the guy who sorted it knows his stuff (ie he recognised it as a BMW before i even opened my mouth)

    anyone else carrying out this might want to look into the reinforcement plates (listed as "spacer rings" ) for the diff mounts on a 325, underseal to tidy up bits once everything is out and clear. handbrake cables if needed, and have brake fluid ready

    if you use a 3.0 prop, you'll need just a 23mm stretch

    Giftschrank Projekt

  8. #83
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    well thought I would post some imput here, i have actually blown up a 188mm diff with only a S52 intake/exhaust/tune

    and with a crap clutch that at the time wasn't liking life all that much i have pics




    sorry the second pic sucks, this was from a first gear 3K launch. So yeah when I go boost im seriously considering the bigger diff.

  9. #84
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    Something was very wrong inside of that diff or you did something wrong, there are guys launching on prepped track surfaces on drag slicks with 3, 4 times the power of what you have and their diffs are holding up fine.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyfizzle View Post
    Something was very wrong inside of that diff or you did something wrong, there are guys launching on prepped track surfaces on drag slicks with 3, 4 times the power of what you have and their diffs are holding up fine.
    Yea, that doesn't sound like a recipe to break a BMW 188mm diff. These things are actually pretty tough. I used to worry about this in our V8 powered E36, since we "launch" on 315mm R compounds for every autocross run, but time has proven those fears unfounded.



    3 years, 80+ autocross events, with standing start launches on every run (+ many track events) = stock 188mm M3 diff is still going.

    Is it indestructible? No, there's always a way to break anything. The most common form of failure I've seen in these diffs is when a ring gear bolt backs out then chews the ring and pinion to bits.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fair View Post
    Yea, that doesn't sound like a recipe to break a BMW 188mm diff. These things are actually pretty tough. I used to worry about this in our V8 powered E36, since we "launch" on 315mm R compounds for every autocross run, but time has proven those fears unfounded.



    3 years, 80+ autocross events, with standing start launches on every run (+ many track events) = stock 188mm M3 diff is still going.

    Is it indestructible? No, there's always a way to break anything. The most common form of failure I've seen in these diffs is when a ring gear bolt backs out then chews the ring and pinion to bits.

    Been there, fortunately it just took a tiny chunk out.

    The guy that did the diff work for me simply polished/smoothed out the chipped area and it's been fine so far.

    a bit noisy though

  12. #87
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    It really sounds like the stock diffs can be hit or miss. I heard a lot about the 1995 diffs having bolts that back out on the ring gear because they were not locktited in place (I have two of these with no problems) and I also hear about lots of other diff failures. It is possible that some are built/assembled to closer tolerances than others and it is "hit or miss." Some people get away with one in stock form, while others have blown through three or four in stock form.

    As lots of people have said- most people who are racing the 188 diffs are not running them in stock form. They are having them built up to take a beating. The fact that there are so many that have blown makes it seem like an insurance policy. Also there is that infamous front mounting bolt that must be improved.

    Since racers are weight weenies and the 188 diff is typically sufficient for street duty, the market for the 210 diff seems pretty small in the US. In Europe it is a common upgrade, but it may be due to the "bigger is better" theory or that "Anything on the Evo that is different MUST be better."
    Last edited by DaveAZ; 03-14-2009 at 09:05 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by =BA= View Post
    Pro's and cons. The EVO diff has a larger oil capacity and will run cooler. The cars which are used in motorsports usually suffer from this if you don't apply extra cooling.

    One other concern for going with the 188 with finned cover is the weight of the whole assembly, you gain a good bit of weight by swapping to Type 210.

    I replaced my gearset with that of a E46 M3. A lot of 5 and 7 series are actually Type 215, so not sure if you can use them. They are available through BMW motorsport however.

    I know this post is 7 years old but I need some serious help. I'm in the progress of doing a ls1/t56 swap and i have a E46 M3 diff. How did you get it to work? Before I start tearing stuff out, I'd really appreciate the info. to make this build a little less difficult.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BILLYGUTHRIE View Post
    I know this post is 7 years old but I need some serious help. I'm in the progress of doing a ls1/t56 swap and i have a E46 M3 diff. How did you get it to work? Before I start tearing stuff out, I'd really appreciate the info. to make this build a little less difficult.
    Send me your diff and subframe. I'll modify the subframe and have custom mounts made so it bolts right in place. That's about the only I know of to get it done. There should be plenty of good fabricators in North Carolina. Look for someone to do the same locally.

  15. #90
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    Bumping a very old thread here but does anyone have the torque specs for the 3 front and 4 rear mounting bolts on the Euro E36 M3 differential ?

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRT View Post
    Bumping a very old thread here but does anyone have the torque specs for the 3 front and 4 rear mounting bolts on the Euro E36 M3 differential ?
    Euro diff and and E46 diff are both 210mm, same bolts. Here are the E46 M3 bolt specs (they should be identical)


    Front subframe bolts: 66 ft-lb (90 Nm)
    Rear subframe bolts: 57 ft-lb (77 Nm)


    2 front diff mount bolts: 70 ft-lb (95 Nm)
    1 rear diff mount bolt: 128 ft-lb (174 Nm)


    Driveshaft to differential flange: 63 ft-lb (85 Nm)


    Also, torque specs are usually set by the bolt, not by the manufacture. You can almost always find the right torque based on the bolt side:

    https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Torque_settings



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