Z4 vs Z3?

[chickdr]

It is amusing how SCMotorsport states you should get a Z4 if you "prefer your driving experience to be toned down for everyday drivability, then this is your choice as it's more suited for someone who needs nannies, a hardtop, and frills" I assume he is referencing an E89 Z4 as the only hardtop on the E85 was a removable one. The E85 is still quite raw. Just an overall better designed car than the Z3.

[BimmerBreaker]

The E85 is still quite raw. Just an overall better designed car than the Z3.

From someone who owns both, I think the Z4 is not better designed and it certainly is not raw. More raw than a Camry, sure, but the Z3 is from the last era of truly analog cars... glad you like your Z4M, but its important to be subjective in a subjective thread.

[chickdr]

Interesting as most reviews of the Z4M say exactly that: it is the last of the analog BMW's....

[montaillou]

From someone who owns both, I think the Z4 is not better designed ...

Based on that statement I'm surprised you own a z4 at all. Considering the z4 was purpose designed and the z3 sprang from the e36 and has so many different engines. This leads me to believe you think the z4 must be very shoddy indeed.

I've never owned a z3 and can't speak to it's design or handling characteristics, but reading about its development (Wikipedia, other reviewers) it seems like it was a work in progress over many years.

[BimmerBreaker]

"Better" is a relative term. The Z4 is a stiffer, more capable yet more refined chassis. The Z3 is more engaging, direct, and raw. You have to grab a Z3 by the scruff of it's neck, with Z4's you more just hang out for the ride. Both are good for different circumstances, Z4 is great for around-town errand running, but for carving the canyons I'll take the Z3. The Z3 was also purpose designed - the Z4 is based (loosely) on the E46 like the Z3 is based (loosely) on the E36 so not sure what was meant with that statement. Z3's are parts bin cars (many of BMW's best cars are... 1M comes to mind) but that by no means would take away from them being purpose built... engineers had to use what they could to make what they wanted (the Z3 Coupe is an even better example of this, having been made by a team of dedicated engineers in their own free time). Without the Z3's experiment into that market I don't think the Z4 would even exist.

Frankly, I own a Z4 because I got a really good deal on one 2 years ago. Don't think I would have sought one out otherwise. I was expecting to flip it but ended up liking it enough to keep it. Like all the automotive journalists complain about new cars being so numb/detached, that is the sole reason I think the Z4 is not a better car than a Z3. I rarely notice DBW lag but the EPS is a nuiscance. Maybe if I had a Z4M like the Z3M's I own I'd be singing a different tune.

Interesting as most reviews of the Z4M say exactly that: it is the last of the analog BMW's....

I wouldn't argue against that. I just have a 2.5 and that is what I am basing my comparison on. I've yet to drive a Z4M but I imagine its a very good car indeed. Its just a shame to me the rest of the Z4 lineup wasnt treated with normal hydraulic steering

[Charlie]

Interesting as most reviews of the Z4M say exactly that: it is the last of the analog BMW's....

Every previous generation BMW was "the last of the analog BMWs". It's fun, go back and read magazine archives, old roundel articles, etc. The E21 was far too buttoned down and reserved compared to the 2002, the e30 had way too many luxury features, extra weight, and removed the raw character of the e21. The E36 was too sedate and lost the tossability of the E30, The E46 was too "Japanese" and lost the "edge" of the E36, The E9x was too heavy and toned down compared to the lively E46, The F1x loses the character of the E9x, etc. The story is pretty much repeated ad nauseam, the "old one" was always better. Remember, enthusiasts are cheap/broke and don't like to buy new stuff.

-Charlie

[chickdr]

"Better" is a relative term. The Z4 is a stiffer, more capable yet more refined chassis. The Z3 is more engaging, direct, and raw. You have to grab a Z3 by the scruff of it's neck, with Z4's you more just hang out for the ride. Both are good for different circumstances, Z4 is great for around-town errand running, but for carving the canyons I'll take the Z3. The Z3 was also purpose designed - the Z4 is based (loosely) on the E46 like the Z3 is based (loosely) on the E36 so not sure what was meant with that statement. Z3's are parts bin cars (many of BMW's best cars are... 1M comes to mind) but that by no means would take away from them being purpose built... engineers had to use what they could to make what they wanted (the Z3 Coupe is an even better example of this, having been made by a team of dedicated engineers in their own free time). Without the Z3's experiment into that market I don't think the Z4 would even exist.

Frankly, I own a Z4 because I got a really good deal on one 2 years ago. Don't think I would have sought one out otherwise. I was expecting to flip it but ended up liking it enough to keep it. Like all the automotive journalists complain about new cars being so numb/detached, that is the sole reason I think the Z4 is not a better car than a Z3. I rarely notice DBW lag but the EPS is a nuiscance. Maybe if I had a Z4M like the Z3M's I own I'd be singing a different tune.

I wouldn't argue against that. I just have a 2.5 and that is what I am basing my comparison on. I've yet to drive a Z4M but I imagine its a very good car indeed. Its just a shame to me the rest of the Z4 lineup wasnt treated with normal hydraulic steering

Again, EXACTLY what Hammond said in the Boxster S vs Z4M comparo test on Top Gear. You really need to drive a Z4M!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Every previous generation BMW was "the last of the analog BMWs". It's fun, go back and read magazine archives, old roundel articles, etc. The E21 was far too buttoned down and reserved compared to the 2002, the e30 had way too many luxury features, extra weight, and removed the raw character of the e21. The E36 was too sedate and lost the tossability of the E30, The E46 was too "Japanese" and lost the "edge" of the E36, The E9x was too heavy and toned down compared to the lively E46, The F1x loses the character of the E9x, etc. The story is pretty much repeated ad nauseam, the "old one" was always better. Remember, enthusiasts are cheap/broke and don't like to buy new stuff.

-Charlie

In your sig you list an '89 325is 24v. What motor do you have in the car? I had a 325i sedan with the 2.5, but that motor was a 12v engine.

[Charlie]

In your sig you list an '89 325is 24v. What motor do you have in the car? I had a 325i sedan with the 2.5, but that motor was a 12v engine.

2.5 Vanos M50

-Charlie

[BimmerBreaker]

Every previous generation BMW was "the last of the analog BMWs". It's fun, go back and read magazine archives, old roundel articles, etc. The E21 was far too buttoned down and reserved compared to the 2002, the e30 had way too many luxury features, extra weight, and removed the raw character of the e21. The E36 was too sedate and lost the tossability of the E30, The E46 was too "Japanese" and lost the "edge" of the E36, The E9x was too heavy and toned down compared to the lively E46, The F1x loses the character of the E9x, etc. The story is pretty much repeated ad nauseam, the "old one" was always better. Remember, enthusiasts are cheap/broke and don't like to buy new stuff.

-Charlie

I think at some point when we lost physical oil dipsticks and design was moved predominantly from live testing to CAD simulations that the cars really did move from analog to digital...

[JeffyD]

There's always a new definition of what "analog" means.

Carburetors being cast aside for computer controlled injection systems.

Power steering spelled the death of true steering, and electric power steering is now the death knell of the oh so superior hydraulic systems.

Throttle by wire was the final nail in the coffin of true driving experience.

Forced induction is never going to be a replacement for displacement. NA engines are the only ones that can offer a powerband suited for spirited driving.

It doesn't matter how far they develop the damned things - horseless carriages will never replace the bond between man and horse. True gentlemen will never adopt such a vulgar method of transportation.

Etc etc.

The world has been coming to end with the next generation since time immemorial.

I have my preferences, but it doesn't seem to be particularly legitimate for them to be the end all be all of what is the "real" line crossed.

Out with the old, in with the new, I guess. Just don't let personal bias dictate what is the current real deal and what is the blasphemous new atrocities.

PS - FWD is the real enemy. Fact.

[JimG Z4]

Here's my take from having had both:

Z3 - a raw Sports Car
Z4 - a refined Touring Car

[George K]

Here's my take from having had both:

Z3 - a raw Sports Car
Z4 - a refined Touring Car

This is about as succinct as it can get! Having owned both, IMHO, the Z3 was a fun "corner cutter", while the Z4 is a more refined tourer. Just having a glass rear window in the Z4 raises it up quite a few levels!

[montaillou]

It doesn't matter how far they develop the damned things - horseless carriages will never replace the bond between man and horse. True gentlemen will never adopt such a vulgar method of transportation.

I just don't have the room to put a stables at my city home.

Needs must.

[jamesembry]

I currently own a z3m roadster with a S52 and just test drove a Z4m coupe. The 3 is more raw and has a lot more steering feel. I was actually a little disappointed in the feel of the 4. I did however feel the 4 was far superior in every other aspect. It's more comfortable, has a much more modern interior with modern conveniences and performs much better but the s52 has noticeably more low end grunt. The 4 SHOULD be less maintenance in the long haul. I think I would enjoy a z3m coupe with the s54 the most but I think the prices are way inflated and my wife really prefers the comfort of the 4. Overall I think the 3 may be a bit more fun on the back roads but the 4 is definitely a better car. Btw we are going to look for a 4 and I'm selling the 3

[BimmerBreaker]

Theres a $15k S54 M Coupe for sale in Kansas right now. Needs some work but $2k to weld everything back together and your in a $25k car.

[vanne]

I've had both swell, though my Z3's were not M's.. my last Z3 was a 2.8 Coupe, and while a nice car, was def more of a rat bag car than the Z4M coupe i now own. really, the only thing that comes to mind is the torsional rigidity, where the Z3 was loose as a goose, the Z4M is solid as a concrete block. My wife actually wants to get in the car for going to movies/dinner etc.. lol

each car is different, so really, mate go drive both see which sticks with you.

only other thing id like to add is that the Z4M is a completely different car than the Z4. (driving wise)

[dazed^]

I think there some truth in labels such as the Z4M being the last "analog" BWM. It's the last high performance NA engine, for one, and the last M without electronic steering (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

I probably already chimed in years ago in this ancient thread, but I've had a Z3 (2.8) before and although it had a LOT of charm, it feels like a child's toy in comparison to the Z4M.

[vanne]

Actually mate, before buying either, ask the sane question in the Z3 part of the forum, see what they say ;-) there a great lot too.

[Pik Masta]

The Z3 1.9 is gas sipper if you're looking for a small engine roadster.

[Ryan Stokes]

Have both...01MR and 06MR. The 01 is tricked out with every ( I mean every one) Dinan add on, short the turbo. The 06 is stock with 5,800 miles. The 01 is raw, and with the Dinan suspension and a hand built 3.73, 4-clutch LSD with 60% lock-up, all the shortcomings of the Z3 trailing arm suspension have been "dialed out".

The 06 does not need any help. The multi-link rear is better, the 3.64 ELSD works as designed. If I had the guts to track it, it would be better than the Z3. The Z3 is actually faster then the Z4...but that is due to Dinan upgrades and a little lower weight. The 6 speed transmission is a huge plus on the Z4.

In the current market, you can pick up a stock Z3M for 15-20k...Z4M for 25-30k. If I we buying now, Z4M hands down. Z3 has some nostalgia with it, but the Z4m got it right the first time. The other issue, at least it matters for me, is parts. Z3 is starting to get NLA...we have a while before the Z4 get there.

[vanne]

The Z3 1.9 is gas sipper if you're looking for a small engine roadster.

and the chassis way out handles the engine. very nice piece of kit, esp in the twisties. I had one as my first bmw.

[8nthatk]

The Z4M is a superior car in pretty much every conceivable way. I dug my Z3M…but don’t miss it having moved up into a Z4M.

[BigC]

I chose the Z4 over Z3 or Z3M for the following reasons: Interior comfort and amentities, Styling both interior and exterior, superior handling, better drivetrains (N52 with 6 speed manual is brilliant)

I will say that driving a Z3 is what caused me to want to buy a roadster though-

[gaspump]

I just drove a Z3 with a 2.3, auto today. It was a hard time getting into the car with the factory hardtop, but it was quiet. Drove nice, good steering, nice road feel. I need to drive a Z 4 to feel any difference. But it was small too, maybe to small for my size. But the price, mileage, condition was great. Oh well.

[BimmerBreaker]

If the Z3 was too small for you a Z4 may be a better fit. I dont think the interior space is actually any bigger by any really measurable standards, but it always felt roomier to me. The Z3 sort of hugs me, the Z4 I'm more sitting "in" if that makes sense.