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Thread: S50 B32 with EBM standalone, CF airbox and double vanos delete...dyno inside

  1. #1
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    S50 B32 with EBM standalone, CF airbox and double vanos delete...dyno inside

    Link to original e36coupe.co.uk thread




    Mods list: BME engine management, vanos delete, airbox with ITG filter, Supersprint race catback (likely cat delete as well), JB racing ultra light Clutch and flywheel.

    He's still got stock cams and header.

    This is an indirect comparison of this motor vs another stock S50 B32:

    WARNING! These are flywheel estimates from a "rolling road" chassis dyno.


    The change in the torque curve is what I expect but definitely not the peak torque gain of approx 43 lb-ft (flywheel estimate) by locking stock cams.

    What do you guys think??
    Last edited by BSH; 02-27-2007 at 01:11 PM.

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    I think I can't wait to get home to see the graphs as my work blocks photobucket.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    I think I can't wait to get home to see the graphs as my work blocks photobucket.
    I can always email the images to you, Bruce. I'll do it now...

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    So the dotted line is a different 3.2 not a before and after comparo. Interesting results, but I think they are highly suspect for those mods and that much change.

    Is the engine management a piggy back? An Alpha N? Software?
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    So the dotted line is a different 3.2 not a before and after comparo.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    Interesting results, but I think they are highly suspect for those mods and that much change.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    Is the engine management a piggy back? An Alpha N? Software?
    I don't THINK it's a piggy back and I don't if it's an alpha N program. I'll have to search for their website.

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    Where are all my euro pals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSH View Post

    The change in the torque curve is what I expect but definitely not the peak torque gain of approx 43 lb-ft (flywheel estimate) by locking stock cams.

    What do you guys think??
    Thats what makes me very skeptical about it. That is a huge tq gain.
    Sean

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    IMO the only even possible comparo you can make on a dyno is 2 cars run back to back (like Sean and I did)....next best would be same car same dyno with and without mods. 2 cars same dyno different days- not much usable data.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    IMO the only even possible comparo you can make on a dyno is 2 cars run back to back (like Sean and I did)....next best would be same car same dyno with and without mods. 2 cars same dyno different days- not much usable data.
    Yea, you guys are right.

    It's too bad this guy didn't go on the same dyno before doing the mods. Such valuable info wasted by not thinking ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSH View Post
    Link to original e36coupe.co.uk thread




    Mods list: BME engine management, vanos delete, airbox with ITG filter, Supersprint race catback (likely cat delete as well), JB racing ultra light Clutch and flywheel.

    He's still got stock cams and header.

    This is an indirect comparison of this motor vs another stock S50 B32:

    WARNING! These are flywheel estimates from a "rolling road" chassis dyno.


    The change in the torque curve is what I expect but definitely not the peak torque gain of approx 43 lb-ft (flywheel estimate) by locking stock cams.

    What do you guys think??
    I'm no dyno expert and I'm sure I will be corrected here if I'm wrong, but I'm starting to have problems with this stock dyno plot. S50B32's do not make power up to 7500rpm they start to die out at 6600 to 6800rpm kind of like the non stock graph.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by m3s3dave View Post
    I'm no dyno expert and I'm sure I will be corrected here if I'm wrong, but I'm starting to have problems with this stock dyno plot. S50B32's do not make power up to 7500rpm they start to die out at 6600 to 6800rpm kind of like the non stock graph.............
    I will disagree with you there...a good tune Euro 3.2 makes good power up to 7500.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    I will disagree with you there...a good tune Euro 3.2 makes good power up to 7500.
    Not stock.....I'm just not buying it... you can't just tune in an extra 700rpm with no apparent power gain . I have 10 graphs showing otherwise.... one of them being mine. If you can find the UK magazine Total BMW Autumn 2005 at one of there rolling road events... there are graphs of 5 3.0's and 4 3.2's some chipped and some remapped plus the basic mods of exhaust and induction and none of them made power over 6800rpm. I've spoken numerous times with PTG and a handful of tuners in the UK and Australia plus Alan Jensen who built my motor and they just don't do it. Also how would you explain the 700rpm loss of power on the modded graph......just doesn't make any since to me......

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    here is an S50B32 that has original computer reflashed with custom tune, also has custom exhaust (still with cats) and CAI, still makes power right up top
    multiply KW by 1.34 to get hp ( then add 12% for dynojet number, but not important for this exercise)




    and my S50B30 before carbon airbox and alpha n (will have to go back again soon and see what I am making now) car had chip, alloy flywheel, custom exhaust and CAI, max power at 7800rpm

    cheers, Alan



    1/4 mile-12.92 @ 108.64mph-NA 3.0L m3 daily driver

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    Bone stock S50B32 will see it's peak power at 7200-7300 RPM or so At least mine makes power almost all the way to redline.



    Scale is in km/u but 182 is about 7200 RPM. 321 HP with 15% losses is 273 RWHP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m3s3dave View Post
    Not stock.....I'm just not buying it... you can't just tune in an extra 700rpm with no apparent power gain . I have 10 graphs showing otherwise.... one of them being mine. If you can find the UK magazine Total BMW Autumn 2005 at one of there rolling road events... there are graphs of 5 3.0's and 4 3.2's some chipped and some remapped plus the basic mods of exhaust and induction and none of them made power over 6800rpm. I've spoken numerous times with PTG and a handful of tuners in the UK and Australia plus Alan Jensen who built my motor and they just don't do it. Also how would you explain the 700rpm loss of power on the modded graph......just doesn't make any since to me......
    I guess we are talking about semantics here. IMO a loss of 10 hp from 6800 to 7500 is negligible. You said "they start to die out at 6600 to 6800rpm".

    I'd prefer to have a motor that looses 20 hp over 7000 rpms but can rev to 8000 versus a motor that has the same power at 7000 but stops reving there.

    You said "you can't just tune in an extra 700rpm with no apparent power gain"....less of a loss is a gain in my book.

    I can't see the graphs again so I forget what the drop off was exactly...but even though the curve drops it is still higher than the stock graph at the same rev point. No way can you mod a motor and have the same curves move up- you are going to have to choose something to gain a lot of and something to not gain as much of.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

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    Quote Originally Posted by morerevsm3 View Post
    here is an S50B32 that has original computer reflashed with custom tune, also has custom exhaust (still with cats) and CAI, still makes power right up top
    multiply KW by 1.34 to get hp ( then add 12% for dynojet number, but not important for this exercise)




    and my S50B30 before carbon airbox and alpha n (will have to go back again soon and see what I am making now) car had chip, alloy flywheel, custom exhaust and CAI, max power at 7800rpm


    Alan

    OK on the first graph.... I have been comparing it to the Dyno Dynamics graphs that I have and it would help my point.... the power band is going flat at 6600rpm's. Converting Kw to Sae rwhp that would be 260 and Din about 264.4 by my calculations.

    Now on your graph... and (I have seen this graph before) the first thing that grabbed my eye was the separation between the torque curve and the power curve and the way it climbs almost strait up. The first graph doesn't do it and nether of the graphs that I have does that either. I'm not sure on what your torque is there but that seems odd to me. Now on comparison to mine and I have converted it from Sae to Din to help compare are #'s... it makes even less since to me. Can you tell me why basically same motors with the same cam profiles (256's) yours is making power at 1200rpm more. The numbers seem right but the graph just doesn't. If that was my graph I would expect closer to 300rwhp at the wheels. Great can't get my graph to upload.

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    Here we go.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    I guess we are talking about semantics here. IMO a loss of 10 hp from 6800 to 7500 is negligible. You said "they start to die out at 6600 to 6800rpm".

    Yes they quit making power at that point.

    I'd prefer to have a motor that looses 20 hp over 7000 rpms but can rev to 8000 versus a motor that has the same power at 7000 but stops reving there.

    This isn't about rev's mine will rev to 8000rpm it just isn't making any more power after about 6600rpm.

    You said "you can't just tune in an extra 700rpm with no apparent power gain"....less of a loss is a gain in my book.

    No you can't just tune to what ever rpm level you want. (can you)

    I can't see the graphs again so I forget what the drop off was exactly...but even though the curve drops it is still higher than the stock graph at the same rev point. No way can you mod a motor and have the same curves move up- you are going to have to choose something to gain a lot of and something to not gain as much of.

    Not sure I'm following you here but wouldn't the rev's (rpm) have gone up with mods instead of coming down.
    I'm just trying to understand why the same motors with basically the same mods....(same cams..and that's were your rev range comes from I believe)that one makes power to 7800rpm and the other 6600rpm.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by m3s3dave View Post
    I'm just trying to understand why the same motors with basically the same mods....(same cams..and that's were your rev range comes from I believe)that one makes power to 7800rpm and the other 6600rpm.....

    Looks like your dyno operator stopped at 7k rpms so you really can't make any meaningful comparison.

    Also- in the first graph that more revs posted, the X axis is not RPMs (you might be able to make a good guess if his ratios are stock). The 2nd graph you can't tell either b/c you can't see the markings.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  20. #20
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    I just browsed through all my S50 B32 dyno plots (with RPM on the x axis) and all but one show that HP plateaus at approximately 6500 RPM and is essentially flat up to 7500 RPM.

    Even a dyno of a euro 3.0L stroked to 3.2L with stock cams and intake plenum plateaus just below 6500 RPM. I think it's the nature of the beast with the longer stroke of the 3.2L combined with the stock cams.

    Why does HP drop off so drastically in the dyno plot I initially posted of the S50 B32 with standalone, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSH View Post
    WARNING! These are flywheel estimates from a "rolling road" chassis dyno
    IMO that's your problem right there. Would it be possible to get some runs in on a "real" dyno?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg S View Post
    IMO that's your problem right there. Would it be possible to get some runs in on a "real" dyno?
    Unfortunately, no. In this case I try to focus on the shape of the TQ curve rather than the numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    Also- in the first graph that more revs posted, the X axis is not RPMs (you might be able to make a good guess if his ratios are stock). The 2nd graph you can't tell either b/c you can't see the markings.
    it is stock diff for euro 3.2 and 6 speed box, he has 245/40/17 rear tyres
    cheers, Alan



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