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Thread: Let's talk about Somender Singh's groove theory

  1. #1
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    Let's talk about Somender Singh's groove theory

    I've read about this for a while now and haven't seen it mentioned around here so I'd like to get some thoughts from the engineers, engine builders or actually anyone. The turbo volvo guys and some older vw's have claimed that this noticeable reduces detonation.

    I'll do some copy and pasting from the site.

    Introduction to Groove Theory

    What has been working since 1995 with countless engines modified and working well, has fairly recently been brought to the US from India. We have been contacted by volunteer testers in various locations around the world.

    Somender Singh has been awarded an US Patent for his discovery of how to gain more engine power and economy by utilizing a small groove cut into the squish area(s) of the typical Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). The Groove(s) allows gasses to expand and compress with a quality that has consistently improved fuel efficiency, lowered operating temperature, improved torque and max power as well as lowering idle speed significantly.



    The Groove has beneficial effects on the compression stroke as well as the power stroke. On the compression stroke, the Groove channels the last bit of air/fuel mixture towards the combustion area, maintaining swirl until the spark provides ignition. On the power stroke, the Groove provides a channel for hot gasses to jet towards the cylinder wall and ignite comparatively more mixture in the squish area. It also appears that the Groove can destroy standing vortices in the squish areas as well.


    Ungrooved Cylinder head

    Without grooves, the combustion is incomplete and unburned fuel remains in the cylinder. This unburned fuel is still expanding during the exhaust stroke. At the end of the exhaust stroke, the expanding unburned gases flow past the intake valve into the intake manifold, causing poor idle, carbon deposits and lower performance. Notice the areas left unburned. This is the extent of the flamefront.



    Grooved cylinder head
    Shown here are two different types of groove for illustration purposes only. Normally only one type of Groove is used. Follow this link to see many images of Grooved engines.

    With the grooved cylinder heads, combustion is more complete leaving little unburned fuel behind, more of the fuel is used to generate power, reducing the time that internal surfaces are exposed to heat. (That’s also why engines typically run cooler with a Groove) This burn pattern appears silver.

    The article is located here: http://somender-singh.com/content/view/7/49

    Here are links from the turbobricks and vwvortex forums about it:
    http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=66779

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2754556

    Thoughts? Does it reduce detonation because it lowers compression, does it actually increase the turbulance in the combustion chamber...?
    -Curt

    stock CR 92 non-vanos 325 / first ever Holset HY35 powered BMW / custom tubular manifold & motor mount / stock DME tuning / tial 50mm bov / 46mm xspower w.g. / green top injectors / IC piping designed by myself (above subframe of course) / 12x28x3" IC / oil return into pan that seems to work / e21 tranny mounts / custom blow through MAF / koni sport kit / 18x8.5 mvr replica's / various leaks & body colours

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    I remember reading about this a few years ago.. never saw any conclusive evidence. Time to read some more.
    A word of Internet Forum wisdom: Disregard any advice that begins with "I've heard..."

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  3. #3
    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    we did that on 5hp briggs motors on karts back in the day. I'm suprised that you can patent that since its been done before.

    On the 5hp briggs, its done since there is a large distance between the plug and the center of the combustion chamber. it was an attempt to direct the burn.

    On an engine with a properly designed combustion chamber, I don't see this type of solution being any benefit as there isn't the same problem. On a motor with a 2 valve head, there's enough combustion chamber compromise that it may help.

    I would definately not do this to an M50 based motor.
    Michael McCoy TRM

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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    On an engine with a properly designed combustion chamber, I don't see this type of solution being any benefit as there isn't the same problem. On a motor with a 2 valve head, there's enough combustion chamber compromise that it may help.

    I would definately not do this to an M50 based motor.
    Interesting, would you agree that these grooves actually work and would they help at all to prevent detonation in a m50?
    -Curt

    stock CR 92 non-vanos 325 / first ever Holset HY35 powered BMW / custom tubular manifold & motor mount / stock DME tuning / tial 50mm bov / 46mm xspower w.g. / green top injectors / IC piping designed by myself (above subframe of course) / 12x28x3" IC / oil return into pan that seems to work / e21 tranny mounts / custom blow through MAF / koni sport kit / 18x8.5 mvr replica's / various leaks & body colours

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    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by e36'n View Post
    Interesting, would you agree that these grooves actually work and would they help at all to prevent detonation in a m50?
    they work in some cases. If you look in the pictures, they go to what would likely be dead areas. I can't think of dead areas on an M50 piston.

    For detonation reduction, doubtful? There are other things to do to a piston to help with that. Most are common on any aftermarket lower compression piston. (Some of which actually came up at dinner this evening when discussing piston design with some friends. like the step seen in S52 pistons)
    Michael McCoy TRM

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    Michael,

    You can patent just about anything. The USPTO will not necessarily exclude a patent due to prior art, especially if the prior art is not a patent in and of itself.

    However said patent may not stand up to a challenge based on said prior art if it came down to that, unless it is truly unique, or has unique aspects.

    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    Some of which actually came up at dinner this evening when discussing piston design with some friends. like the step seen in S52 pistons
    You have weird friends.
    No PMs. Email through forum please.

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    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    Michael,

    You can patent just about anything. The USPTO will not necessarily exclude a patent due to prior art, especially if the prior art is not a patent in and of itself.

    However said patent may not stand up to a challenge based on said prior art if it came down to that, unless it is truly unique, or has unique aspects.

    Steve
    Very true. They were supposed to be getting better about not giving things a patent that had been done before in great numbers by many individuals. (or worse yet, had been patented before.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    You have weird friends.
    true, but they know stuff. I'd have to go with you being more of the "also there" category than the "know stuff" category of that group though.

    You remember the specifics of that part of the converstaion that dealt with knock?
    Michael McCoy TRM

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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    Very true. They were supposed to be getting better about not giving things a patent that had been done before in great numbers by many individuals. (or worse yet, had been patented before.)

    true, but they know stuff. I'd have to go with you being more of the "also there" category than the "know stuff" category of that group though.

    You remember the specifics of that part of the converstaion that dealt with knock?
    Ouch. You cut me deep, man. Then again, Ken's forgotten more than I know, so you're probably right.

    I did catch most of that conversation though, I remember something about the flame moving through the combustion chamber increasing the pressure ahead of it making that area more likely to detonate. I was sitting at the opposite end of the table, so I didn't catch much. Plus Sean kept talking about your mom and distracting me....
    No PMs. Email through forum please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    For detonation reduction, doubtful? There are other things to do to a piston to help with that. Most are common on any aftermarket lower compression piston. (Some of which actually came up at dinner this evening when discussing piston design with some friends. like the step seen in S52 pistons)
    What kind of other things?
    -Curt

    stock CR 92 non-vanos 325 / first ever Holset HY35 powered BMW / custom tubular manifold & motor mount / stock DME tuning / tial 50mm bov / 46mm xspower w.g. / green top injectors / IC piping designed by myself (above subframe of course) / 12x28x3" IC / oil return into pan that seems to work / e21 tranny mounts / custom blow through MAF / koni sport kit / 18x8.5 mvr replica's / various leaks & body colours

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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    (Some of which actually came up at dinner this evening when discussing piston design with some friends. like the step seen in S52 pistons)
    Dude, you have way too good of genes to be spending dinner with a bunch of geeks. You should be having it with some playmates!
    Anyone wants to buy my e36 m3 please contact me at soldbycam@gmail.com

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    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by e36'n View Post
    What kind of other things?
    Things like the burn creating a pressure wave, and if the volume *away* from the burn isn't sufficient, the pressure will ignite the mixture in parts of the combustion chamber before the flame burns its way there. As the flame front moves from the center of the combustion chamber to the outside, the piston is also moving down. The change in volume should hopefully closely match the approaching pressure wave and somewhat equalize the pressure.

    The other part of the equation is how much volume is in a given part of the chamber and how much of it is right up against a wall. Molecules up against the cylinder head are more difficult to light than those out in the open as the cylinder head (or in some cases the piston or cylinder walls) will absorb much of the energy needed to make it burn.

    So the step in the piston on things like S52 pistons serves a few functions. Having/needing a step is a function of not just your desired CR. (i.e. only removing from the main volume in the middle to achieve your desired CR). One could take uniformly off of the top of the piston to achieve that. The high side and lower middle changes the initial volume and rate of volume change on the outside of the piston WRT the flame movement.

    I hope that came out right. I'm still trying to visualize the impact of where in the cylinder the volume is verusus the movement of the flame. Ken has played with a lot more engine simulations than I have.
    Michael McCoy TRM

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    Thanks for bringing this up e36 I like these kind of discussion, first the idea is not bad, I like the idea to bring the flame front on the back of the chamber, but the way they did it, I'm not sure it will be of help in a turbo engine, the sharp edges they made will glow red hot and preignite like hell, it need to be rounded a lot to be workable. Also, cutting the head surface like this seem weird to me since it's definitely weakening the head, not to mention that sonic check is in order to know how deep to cut or the head is good to hold your door open. Some real time testing have to be done to see if it works on our engines since the squish aera is way smaller than the older musclecar 2 valves design were it may give better improvements.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by techno550 View Post
    Things like the burn creating a pressure wave, and if the volume *away* from the burn isn't sufficient, the pressure will ignite the mixture in parts of the combustion chamber before the flame burns its way there. As the flame front moves from the center of the combustion chamber to the outside, the piston is also moving down. The change in volume should hopefully closely match the approaching pressure wave and somewhat equalize the pressure.

    The other part of the equation is how much volume is in a given part of the chamber and how much of it is right up against a wall. Molecules up against the cylinder head are more difficult to light than those out in the open as the cylinder head (or in some cases the piston or cylinder walls) will absorb much of the energy needed to make it burn.

    So the step in the piston on things like S52 pistons serves a few functions. Having/needing a step is a function of not just your desired CR. (i.e. only removing from the main volume in the middle to achieve your desired CR). One could take uniformly off of the top of the piston to achieve that. The high side and lower middle changes the initial volume and rate of volume change on the outside of the piston WRT the flame movement.

    I hope that came out right. I'm still trying to visualize the impact of where in the cylinder the volume is verusus the movement of the flame. Ken has played with a lot more engine simulations than I have.
    I'll have to read that a couple more times to fully understand it I'm sure, but thanks for the reply.

    On another note, why are the volvo owners with the 2 valve heads able to increase their ignition advance yet not notice any detonation, whereas without the grooves it would detonate at the setting? I mean are there scientific facts that this will actual reduce detonation and burn the mixture fuller or are the grooves just slightly lowering the CR which allows for higher advance?

    -Curt

    stock CR 92 non-vanos 325 / first ever Holset HY35 powered BMW / custom tubular manifold & motor mount / stock DME tuning / tial 50mm bov / 46mm xspower w.g. / green top injectors / IC piping designed by myself (above subframe of course) / 12x28x3" IC / oil return into pan that seems to work / e21 tranny mounts / custom blow through MAF / koni sport kit / 18x8.5 mvr replica's / various leaks & body colours

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    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by e36'n View Post
    I'll have to read that a couple more times to fully understand it I'm sure, but thanks for the reply.

    On another note, why are the volvo owners with the 2 valve heads able to increase their ignition advance yet not notice any detonation, whereas without the grooves it would detonate at the setting? I mean are there scientific facts that this will actual reduce detonation and burn the mixture fuller or are the grooves just slightly lowering the CR which allows for higher advance?

    how much has the volume at TDC changed? The CR is definately lower, but by how much depends on how agressive they were with the "groove". It may be a combination of a lower CR and pressure change vs how fast (and where) the flame can get to. Then again, it could just be the reduced CR.

    From looking at pictures and anecdotal evidence, all we can really do is guess.

    Perhaps spooltime will have some valuable input on this?
    Michael McCoy TRM

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    Quote Originally Posted by e36'n View Post
    I'll have to read that a couple more times to fully understand it I'm sure, but thanks for the reply.

    That's definitely hard to swallow but very interesting. Explain it if you get it.

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    As I read on yesterday, is seem to work with a wider piston to head clearance and on engines with a high squish to bore ratio. The discussion was going on Volvos 2 valves/cyl heads and chevy V8. When the squish closes, it directs a stream of mixture toward the center on the combustion chamber, as the squish opens, a stream of fire is drawn in and burn quickly and more efficiently the remaining gases.

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    Everything I've learned in both the classroom and dyno cell would indicate that squish area is your friend. I can't for the life of me imagine why you'd punch a friend like this in the eye.

    Of course I'm skeptical until I see data proving otherwise. These grooves appear to lower CR by all the historically wrong means; reducing squish area and creating crevice volumes. These crevice volumes often lead to storage of HC deposits that increase emissions and glow with a tendency to cause preignition. Further, sharp edges inside the combustion chamber are also historically undesirable since they are both a potential hotspot and stressor on the local material strength of the head casting.

    Good charge motion can still be had (even near TDC) with proper port geometry and chamber design. This smells like a band aid approach for poor charge motion.

    It's going to take a lot more research before I start cuttin the heads like this on my personal cars.
    ~Greg
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  19. #19
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    In fact it was a band aid on engines that did not have enough squish (too much clearance).

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