Watch the build-up of a Vorshlag E36 LS1

[Divergent]

Yes, I need this swap for myself. I wants it. Me needs it. The precious...

lol

But seriously, this is great that you guys are doing something as innovative as this. It really opens up a door for those of us you don't have enough time to R+D this on our own.

[hancheyb]

And on another update, we just picked up our AST order from the shipper. Pics will be up shortly.

[dynamowhum]

Question for Vorshlag. Early in this thread you mentioned your engine builder could build a 650hp 427 for $8,000. This seems way cheap. No offense meant I would really love to see this. I have looked at all the vendors on LS1tech and I really don't think it can be done for less than $13,000. If it can great, if you made a mistake on the amount well mistakes are made by everybody. Thanks

[hancheyb]

Question for Vorshlag. Early in this thread you mentioned your engine builder could build a 650hp 427 for $8,000. This seems way cheap. No offense meant I would really love to see this. I have looked at all the vendors on LS1tech and I really don't think it can be done for less than $13,000. If it can great, if you made a mistake on the amount well mistakes are made by everybody. Thanks

Fair knows more about this so I'll let him answer (he LOVES to write long posts about motors ), but that was not a mistake. It has gone up a little just to error on the side of caution. Scooter wants a rock solid reliable motor. I think it is up to almost $9k. Just because everyone is charging that much doesn't mean there isn't a better way to build it. And that is list price, not a buddy deal under the table.

[dynamowhum]

This is very good news indeed. Could we get a break down of the motor specs and parts list please? A dyno chart would be nice as well. This sounds like an excellent deal.

[Fair]

This is very good news indeed. Could we get a break down of the motor specs and parts list please? A dyno chart would be nice as well. This sounds like an excellent deal.

Original spec: new L92 block (4.060" bore) with Eagle stroker crank, H-beam rods, 11.25:1 custom forged pistons, new L92 heads (huge 2.160" intake valves), custom hyd roller, lots of other misc bits. 427" displacement (7.0L), about $8000.

Newer: Similar to above but with CNC'd TFS LS1 heads ($2700) and some valve train upgrades, $9200.

There's a lot more to our quote, but I am out of town and don't have it in front of me. I don't want to write more than that from memory, in case I get something wrong and look like a jackass. We will post the full spec sheet, dyno chart, etc, once it is built and in the car. We're shooting to have the stock LS1 running around for a couple of weeks in this car before the 7.0L is built. This motor has been started and a cheaper 5.7L for our white 325is (race car) is right behind that (~550 hp).

[dynamowhum]

Understood Fair and thanks. With the L92 heads it probably means the L76 intake and that is a good thing. Those Trick Flow heads are the best according to a lot of the guys at LS1tech as well. I have been subscribed to this thread from the beggining and am looking forward to its completion. Cheers

[Chuck]

A lot of the guys in the GTO forum are looking at the new new heads from TEA. Trick Flow has been getting good press too, but the TEA pieces are the ones people are shooting for.

[Pooch]

What you guys are doing is almost my idea of the perfect car for me. The class of a BMW and the 6-speed plus an American V8 that I have missed soo much since I sold my T/A.

Also you might want to edit in a bullit in the first post for an estimated date we could expect the kit or price to be availiable. Hehe or maybe a countdown???

[Seans M3]

Thats just sick.....cant wait to see it in action. Think of all the mods that can be done to a GM motor. More power per $$$.

[dynamowhum]

Pooch I know what you mean about missing the power since I sold my z28. I think about the BMWs handling along with the LSX motors power levels and my heart beats a little faster.

[DaveAZ]

I don't mean to tangent too much, but here is a bit of small world irony.
I knew this would be a place you guys would see this.

The guy who screwed me over on my M3 parts is attempting to put together a Vorshlag Camber plate group buy.

Link: I hope it is all to be shipped directly to the purchasers

Matt screwing me over (here)

His pathetic reply (here)

[hungryjack]

Any chance on buying "Kit plans"?? so that the DIY's can fab up and make the brackets and other items. You may have already mentioned this but 9 pages and my head hurts.

[Fair]

Got Weights?

A couple of weeks back I dragged the 318 drivetrain out to power wash the trans, since a local buyer wanted the Getrag 5-spd. Ended up power washing the entire engine and trans... plus the LS1 and T56 drivetrain. Then I weighed both drivetrains using our 4 corner weight scales (1500 lbs each, +/- 2 lbs). When the buyer arrived, I pulled the Getrag off and weighed it separately. Results below; click pictures for photo gallery where you can see hi-rez versions.

M42 1.9L engine (iron block) + Getrag 5-spd:





And now the LS1 + T56 (will weigh these separately soon, but from previous testing the T56 = 125 lbs). When we pull a 325is drivetrain out next week (another E36 LS1 swap begins SOON) we'll post the weight for the inline-6, which is a more appropriate BMW engine to compare the LS1 to... since it weighs almost the same!



That's what we're about - Bringing the tech!

[Fair]

Any chance on buying "Kit plans"?? so that the DIY's can fab up and make the brackets and other items. You may have already mentioned this but 9 pages and my head hurts.

This is the "secret sauce" portion of this install... we don't plan to give that hard earned information away. But we will sell these brackets (and other portions of this kit) "ala carte" for a reasonable price.

Updates: We've been working on the LS1 swap steadily during the recent crazy weeks of new product arrivals, intense R&D on shocks/camber plates, new motor mounts, and lots more. As we've mentioned before, we're all about KEEPING functional ABS on our E36 swap. Very important to racers and street driven cars alike! To make room for the headers on the driver's side this means we must "move" the stock ABS actuator. This means a new bracket, plumbing new lines, and keeping the unit below the Master Cylinder for proper gravity feed of the flex lines and bleeding. Here's the ABS relocation work, in progress... (pictures)


Bracket template and .125" steel plate; plate bent, drilled and mounted (2 holes have to be drilled, w/ good access)


ABS unit mounted using OEM isolators. Note height relative to Master Cylinder


Our third brake flaring tool kit ($$$) for Metric Bubble Flaring of new 4.75mm lines. First hardline made.


First line installed, fit snugly to chassis. Will add brackets with rubber isolators for hardlines. Two flex lines from reservoir to ABS are clamped, low pressure hoses.

That was what I did yesterday while Hanchey installed a set of the new AST/Vorshlag coil-over shocks on my M3 as well as "another car" we're testing with.

OK, enough goofing off... Now I'm back out to the shop to finish up the other 4 hardlines for the brakes then it goes to header fab tomorrow. The headers should take "3 or 4 days" but we will budget 2-3 weeks, to be safe. These will be custom built, stainless, 1-3/4" primary, 32-34" long tube headers with 3" collectors. We'll work on the other header options after these are in production (merge collectors, shorty style, larger primaries, etc). Once the car comes back from header fab it will be a full court press to get it plumbed, wired and running on the stock motor/ECM for some shake down testing. 7.0L build-up is in progress.

While this Beta car is out for header fab our white 325i comes in for its drivetrain removal in preparation for another LS1 install.

[dynamowhum]

Thanks for the update

[Fair]

More ABS updates: Here's all 5 custom hardlines completed.


Cut the line with a tubing cutter, then drill the ID, then chamfer, then flare; here's 4 of the 5 lines


All 5 lines completed; Might re-do the first one (get rid of the "drip loop")

3 of the lines are spliced into the stock lines. The 2 lines from the MC to the ABS are all new. We'll use the 3 modified lines to create all new lines for the kit. Off to header fab!

[beeze]

I think this project is really cool. I have read through nash's instructions, your write-up and a whole ton of forum posts. I have also researched other swaps on lsitech and this swap seems to require much less fab work. The e36 is becoming lower and lower in price, so more people are intrested in this too. I really think this kit could do well.

With that being said, I have seen a lot of rumors flying around. I was hoping you could confirm, deny or explain them for us. I understand the kit is not done, but these are rumors I have seen and would like here it from you guys.

This kit will be done by mid June?

This kit will not come out because it has taken 2 1/2 years already?

The kit will be priced from 3k -5k?

It is impossible to beat Nash's $6500 kit and make a profit?

You will post instructions, but not exact details on fabbed parts?

I also wondered:

Will you give a discount to the first few who give a down payment? How do we do this?

I know you can buy it piece by piece, but will you have a kit that includes every zip tie, bolt and etc...?

I hear about the rear diff and the axles busting on these alot. Will the kit include a solution for this?


I think this is a lot of the questions the masses have and answers would be great. Thanks!

[erikerikerik]

lets see if I can answer a few of these
This kit will be done by mid June?
when its done
This kit will not come out because it has taken 2 1/2 years already?
this kits has been through many many changes. view the old post of you dont believe me
The kit will be priced from 3k -5k?

It is impossible to beat Nash's $6500 kit and make a profit?
I remember when nash's kit was in the 4k range. funny how popularity will drive the price of something up. while all things say that the more something is produced the less it should cost.
You will post instructions, but not exact details on fabbed parts?
think of this project as a 'closed' - open source project. If you look at what others have done. What they have posted. you can figure out how/what they are doing and do it for your self. but wait, its just so much easer to let them do all the work then later pay for it.

[dynamowhum]

Question for Vorshlag. I want my conversion to be with an auto tranny.Would that be possible? If so my vehicle is currently an auto. Can I use the stock shifter for this? Thanks in advance.

[Fair]

erikerikerik did a pretty good job of answering these questions, but I will tackle the other ones...

(will) This kit will be done by mid June?

Should be, yes. But as we always say... "Its done when its done."


(will) This kit ...not come out because it has taken 2 1/2 years already?

Hold on a sec. We put an LS1 into an E36 some years ago. It was not easily reproducible the way that "alpha" car was built, unfortunately. Vorshlag began anew with this "Beta" LS1 swap in January of this year. So in four months of after hours work (we are foremost a BMW suspension business) has gotten us this far. After headers, which begin this week, there's mostly just plumbing and wiring.


The kit will be priced from 3k -5k?

More than likely, but we're still missing some hard costs so I cannot guarantee pricing yet. Anything now would still be a guesstimate.

Vorshlag products have always been priced competitively and engineered to the highest standards. As with anything else we manufacture, we will produce engineering CAD drawings for all custom parts, have these bid and by our existing suppliers, and then built in production numbers. Once we have the prototype parts verified the prints will be generated and the parts bid. As soon as we have the initial fabrication and machining quotations we can post pricing. Other aspects such as plating, fasteners, and plumbing can be easily priced.


It is impossible to beat Nash's $6500 kit and make a profit?

That's a good question. The main difference between these two options will be that ours is built to be produced in higher numbers. With volume comes efficiency and hopefully better pricing. Now we may be offering more parts than his kit, I'll have to look.


You will post instructions, but not exact details on fabbed parts?

Yes, detailed instructions are always included. We will even have some downloadable video instructions for certain aspects.

And no, we will not be handing out our engineering drawings. We've been very open with pictures and tech since the beginning, but this kit/work does need to become profitable someday.


Will you give a discount to the first few who give a down payment? How do we do this?

Yes, this has been discussed. We will likely build 10 sets of parts for the first production run and will announce something of a "first run" discount here.


I know you can buy it piece by piece, but will you have a kit that includes every zip tie, bolt and etc...?

Yes, that is a planned version of the kit. The "full kit" will be very specific to the year and model E36 you start with. Initially we will support 1992-1995 318, then the 1992-1995 325 - as these are the first two cars we're building to verify wiring with.


I hear about the rear diff and the axles busting on these alot. Will the kit include a solution for this?

Well, the only V8 cars I have heard "busting" parts were the 318 rear diff (168mm), which is smaller/weaker than the 325/M3 188mm unit. We have the complete M3 rear axle subframes in our Beta car - testing will prove how strong the 188mm axle and halfshafts are. If there proves to be a fragile part in the E36 M3 rear drivetrain, we have the means to create a stronger version of the axle housing (E46 M3 210mm unit), halfshafts (aftermarket tubular), and subframe (reinforced subframe with mounting provisions for 210mm unit).

Question for Vorshlag. I want my conversion to be with an auto tranny. Would that be possible? If so my vehicle is currently an auto. Can I use the stock shifter for this? Thanks in advance.

An automatic has been requested by <10% of the people that e-mail us about this kit. All I can say is that an automatic kit "is a long term goal."

I hope that clears up some unknowns. We are going to stuff the drivetrain back into the car today and hopefully get it to our header fabricator this afternoon. Woot!

[rao]

Mike's $6500 kit comes complete down to the last zip tie and includes a radiator and intake.

I haven't followed the Vorshlag build up closely, but I am not certain of the differences between their approach and Nash's - there are only so may ways to skin the cat. They now have the motor mount offset which was one of the large criticisms of the Nash kit.

If you guys can do a kit for that price it would be a very good thing.

[beeze]

Thanks for that detailed response and I think this will clear up some items. It is nice to hear an update on these because I think a lot of people are just reading these threads.

[vinax]

Our LS1 '92 325is that is being built next (XP3) will use simpler, cheaper flares ($400) over 18x10 D-Force wheels and 285/35/17 R compounds. Subtle.

18x10 D-Force wheels? when are these expected to land? Weight?
I use 285s with my 225whp 2300 lbs car. Im sure you need to plan for MORE tire . Which flares are you planning to get for the XP3 car?

[hancheyb]

18x10 D-Force wheels? when are these expected to land? Weight?
I use 285s with my 225whp 2300 lbs car. Im sure you need to plan for MORE tire . Which flares are you planning to get for the XP3 car?

We like the flares on your car. 18x10s hit the water a week ago. I'll be conservative and say 8-12 weeks? You never know on these things. Yes, 285s won't be enough, but it is a start. We'll flare it to accomodate 12's in the rear eventually.

Dropped off Scooter's car with "fab guy" and/or "header guy" last night at 11:59PM. We said we were going to have it there by yesterday and we did.

Now the infamous "Bessie" moves in to get that awesome non Vanos 270k mile motor out.