Watch the build-up of a Vorshlag E36 LS1

[PrestoMB]

Awesome info guys. Cant wait to see how the E36 Beta Car turns out.

So as far as "kit" form is concerned how will u do this? Are you going to remove all the peices off of the E36 and make copies or what? A plausible kit would include Engine mounts/bushings, headers, tranny brace/bushings, and wiring?

Would you say that an LS series E36 would run low 12's and possibly 11's based on Tire selecetion and engine mods? Would 10's be out of the question due to lack of tire fitment on the E36 chasis?

Sorry to bring back the final drive gearing stuff but is there charts online, similar to what the diffsonline has for the E36 M3, for cars w/ T-56 trannys? Where you can enter the tire sizes and final drive and get your speed and rpm info?

~Preston

[stoose23]

Ls1 into e30 kits? anyone know?

[hancheyb]

Awesome info guys. Cant wait to see how the E36 Beta Car turns out.

So as far as "kit" form is concerned how will u do this? Are you going to remove all the peices off of the E36 and make copies or what? A plausible kit would include Engine mounts/bushings, headers, tranny brace/bushings, and wiring?

Would you say that an LS series E36 would run low 12's and possibly 11's based on Tire selecetion and engine mods? Would 10's be out of the question due to lack of tire fitment on the E36 chasis?

Sorry to bring back the final drive gearing stuff but is there charts online, similar to what the diffsonline has for the E36 M3, for cars w/ T-56 trannys? Where you can enter the tire sizes and final drive and get your speed and rpm info?

~Preston

Once the car returns from header fab (leaving in a few weeks), it goes for a cage then bodywork, etc. So when the motor is out for that, we'll make the fixtures, etc for all the pieces and drawings to make laser cuts out of some of the parts. This will keep the kit costs down when we do production runs similar to what we're doing for camber plates. Laser cutting or water jet makes repeatable (and pretty) parts.

Kit should include everything you've mentioned plus some options. Shorty header without custom steering shaft or full length headers with custom steering shaft. Wiring from year to year will be tricky to make just one jumper harness, but we'll expand our support for various models as this progresses. There's not much overlap in the harnesses so it might not be a huge deal to support several configurations. We're keeping the existing brakes intact, but moving the ABS. Looking into having the new lines built in a repeatable fashion as well (CNC bender maybe).

Quarter mile speed and ET is a roughly a function of HP and traction so look at any current production car's numbers to get an approximation. New ZO6 runs 12's right or is it 11s? 505hp. I think the regular C6 is in the 12s with 400hp. Fair talked to our engine builder who said we'll get kicked out of the drag strip with the beta car based on our plans for this motor. I think that's in the 10s. Fair can eloborate.

You can easily fit a 265 on a BMW with some fender rolling. Maybe even 275 if you get a little crazy with the rolling tool.

I use this tool from Bob Tunnell for calcs. I'll let Fair post gear ratios of the T56 we're using.

http://bimmerhaus.com/tech/gearcalc.xls

[Fair]

Quarter mile speed and ET is a roughly a function of HP and traction so look at any current production car's numbers to get an approximation. New ZO6 runs 12's right or is it 11s? 505hp. I think the regular C6 is in the 12s with 400hp. Fair talked to our engine builder who said we'll get kicked out of the drag strip with the beta car based on our plans for this motor. I think that's in the 10s. Fair can elaborate.

Yes, I have seen (and driven, altho I was a couple of tenths slower in it) a stock C5 Z06 (405hp LS6) run 11.9 quarter mile times @ 119mph. This was on stock street tires, and the car was stock. Weighed 3048 pounds that night at the strip. Same night we both ran my '05 C6 to 12.7 @ 114 - the main difference was in *traction*, as both cars made 352-355 whp on the same dyno a week apart. There's some funky non-defeatable traction control in the LS2 cars. That car weighed 3155 that night, if memory serves me.

So, assuming a 3100 pound full weight M3, and a stock 350 hp Camaro LS1 (stock, but with our long tubes it should make 330 whp at least) you should see low low 12s. With the typical LS1 mods (cam, LS6 intake) and ~360 whp it'll dip into the 11s. There's LOTS of weight that's removable in the E36 and 2800 pounds should be fairly easy to achieve, with sound deadening removal and lighter seats. 450 whp is also easy to do with the stock shortblock (ported heads, bigger cam) so the 10 second zone is probably attainable going that route. Our Beta car has goals of 2500 pounds and 550 whp, with 315mm tires. If it can't run low 10s then we're doing something way wrong.

My STU-prepped, street driven, full interior '97 M3 (non-sunroof) car weighs 2980 soaking wet, and 2940 with racing seats (lightened battery, exhaust, wheels, brakes). The LS1 weighs the same as the S50 motor (within 4 pounds).

Bench racing is worth about $.02, of course.

[PrestoMB]

Well guys I did a little searching and this is some info I found on the T-56 tranny's geraing ratios.

MN6 (LS1) T56 - 2.66:1, 1.78:1, 1.30:1, 1.00:1, 0.74:1, 0.50:1
MN6 (GTO) T56 - 2.97:1, 2.07:1, 1.43:1, 1.00:1, 0.84:1, 0.56:1
M29 ('93 LT1) T56 - 2.97:1, 2.07:1, 1.43:1, 1.00:1, 0.80:1, 0.62:1

[PrestoMB]

So, assuming a 3100 pound full weight M3, and a stock 350 hp Camaro LS1 (stock, but with our long tubes it should make 330 whp at least) you should see low low 12s. With the typical LS1 mods (cam, LS6 intake) and ~360 whp it'll dip into the 11s. There's LOTS of weight that's removable in the E36 and 2800 pounds should be fairly easy to achieve, with sound deadening removal and lighter seats. 450 whp is also easy to do with the stock shortblock (ported heads, bigger cam) so the 10 second zone is probably attainable going that route. Our Beta car has goals of 2500 pounds and 550 whp, with 315mm tires. If it can't run low 10s then we're doing something way wrong.

Sounds beatiful. Its real exciting to see alternative ways to reach power levels. To make 330whp on a S5x your going to need atleast about $8k into the enigne. Our base engine(LS1) w/ your LT headers will start off where many people w/ E36 cars want to end up(300-400whp).

My STU-prepped, street driven, full interior '97 M3 (non-sunroof) car weighs 2980 soaking wet, and 2940 with racing seats (lightened battery, exhaust, wheels, brakes). The LS1 weighs the same as the S50 motor (within 4 pounds).

Wow thats pretty good for weight for a full interior. What seats are you using? As for sound deadeing where are you tlaking about? My car is a street car and I go to the dragstrip/autox every once in a while. I dont want to be taking out all of my sound deadening so my car will be overly loud for the street.

Bench racing is worth about $.02, of course.

Well to each there own. But knowing 1/4 mile times and speeds is a good way to judge how fast you will be against other cars on the street.

[jamesd]

Will the headers be available seperatly? Lets say I buy the kit with the shorty's for a stock ls1, but later on I decide to do a heads/cam upgrade on the ls1, could I buy just the LT's and steering shaft?

[Boarderx192]

Whats your harness going to be like? I know with the Nash kit, its kind of a home-made looking "distribution block" type thing. Are you planning on using an altered harness that will plug into the Stock BMW harness? It would be nice to be able to drop out the BMW motor, bolt up your mounts and everything thats going to come in your kit, and then down the road, if you wanted to turn it back to stock, be able to unbolt your kit and drop all of the stock drivetrain back in and have it be PnP. Just curious as to what your electronics are going to be like.

[hancheyb]

So it seems over the years there's a range of DIY'ers out there. Some people have asked us for "just the basics" while others want a turn key solution. We'll offer the headers and steering shaft separately along with most parts for those that want to tackle some of this alone.

For wiring. Anything is possible, but plan on a custom harness. BMW's connector is standard stuff so I'm fairly certain we can get out hands on them. Even if we get it built professionally by a wiring company in volume (there's a well known one local to us), we're talking $700-1000. If that is something people want, we can do it. BTW, I'm talking about a harness with every wire labeled, every plug built for the LS1, etc.

I'm just not sure how big the market is. Comments welcome.

[DaveAZ]

Every BMW model and year has a different wire schematic so the bulk assembly options for a "standard" harness isn't there. The wiring is a pain in the a$$ because of this.

[hancheyb]

Every BMW model and year has a different wire schematic so the bulk assembly options for a "standard" harness isn't there. The wiring is a pain in the a$$ because of this.

Yeah, before this goes down a rathole, I should have put a big "If" on the front of my post. Every year is different, automatics, 4 cyl, 6 cyl all have differences. We've studied more OBDI wiring diagrams which aren't terrible, but you get into OBDII cars and it gets more complex starting with the EWS starting circuit and going from there. That's not to say we couldn't draw a line in the sand and take an E36 325 5 spd and build 20 sets of harnesses for just that car. It is possible. Not saying we're going to do that though.

[PrestoMB]

Yeah, before this goes down a rathole, I should have put a big "If" on the front of my post. Every year is different, automatics, 4 cyl, 6 cyl all have differences. We've studied more OBDI wiring diagrams which aren't terrible, but you get into OBDII cars and it gets more complex starting with the EWS starting circuit and going from there. That's not to say we couldn't draw a line in the sand and take an E36 325 5 spd and build 20 sets of harnesses for just that car. It is possible. Not saying we're going to do that though.

Well go ahead and do a batch of 20 for the E36 325's w/ 5 spd, thtat would be perfect for me .

I seriously hope this begins to get the following that the LSx RX7's have. It will be cool to have our own section on LSx BMW's.

[dynamowhum]

I would be interested in just bringing you my motor/car and you guys do the rest. If this is possible do you have a ball park for the installation alone no parts.

[DaveAZ]

I seriously hope this begins to get the following that the LSx RX7's have. It will be cool to have our own section on LSx BMW's.

I guess you missed the campaign to get the "Engine Conversions" section that this is in.

[PrestoMB]

I guess you missed the campaign to get the "Engine Conversions" section that this is in.

No I saw it, but I mean to have a section under E36's that says LSx for instance.

[PrestoMB]

I was just thinking about the whole weight of the LS1 vs S5x motor. In all actuallity if you Turbo or Supercharge your car to get over 300whp(atleast what any LSx swap will yeild) then its going to weigh more then the LS1 anyways. I read that the Eurosport Twin Screw weighs about 65lb's.

[JoeZ]

For wiring. Anything is possible, but plan on a custom harness. BMW's connector is standard stuff so I'm fairly certain we can get out hands on them. Even if we get it built professionally by a wiring company in volume (there's a well known one local to us), we're talking $700-1000. If that is something people want, we can do it. BTW, I'm talking about a harness with every wire labeled, every plug built for the LS1, etc.

I'm just not sure how big the market is. Comments welcome.

I went with Speartech who builds custom LSx harness to suit your application, and will also program your PCM to spec as well (vats, egr, air, tach signal, redline, etc). I ordered a harness from them built to the length that I needed, with all of the extras deleted off for around $750 IIRC. Reprogramming the PCM was another $300, sure this is stuff your local tuner can do (and maybe for less)...I paid for convenience and customer service - John offers amazing support pre/post purchase!

[Boarderx192]

I went with Speartech who builds custom LSx harness to suit your application, and will also program your PCM to spec as well (vats, egr, air, tach signal, redline, etc). I ordered a harness from them built to the length that I needed, with all of the extras deleted off for around $750 IIRC. Reprogramming the PCM was another $300, sure this is stuff your local tuner can do (and maybe for less)...I paid for convenience and customer service - John offers amazing support pre/post purchase!

So for that price, what exactly did you get? Was it a reworked LS1 harness that plugs into the BMW harness and everything works perfectly after? Can you elaborate on what you got?

[JoeZ]

So for that price, what exactly did you get? Was it a reworked LS1 harness that plugs into the BMW harness and everything works perfectly after? Can you elaborate on what you got?

It did not "plug" into the BMW harness, but I did tap stock wires like tach, speedo, switched power, etc. and yes the I'm using the stock BMW cluster. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than I already have, if you want to see pics of the harness I used check out link and scroll to the bottom for pics (the first set of pictures at the top are of Mike Collins' electrical center)

[autophile]

... check out link ...

That link should be in your sig.
Nevermind, I bookmarked it!

[DaveAZ]

someone was calculating ratios- this may help.

[MWrench]

Important to remember that even thou the T56 front mounting flange (that mates to the bell housing) is the same for almost if not all T56s, however, the input shaft varies in length and spline diameter and spline count.

Units designed for Ford for example has a longer input shaft then the trans for the Camaro. (different spline count also)

Shifter location also plays an important role in the selection. The Viper has the shifter pad 2 inches further forward then the Camaro, there are companies that make adapters to re-locate the shifter to convenient locations if the stock location doesn't work.

For my M6 V8 conversion, I am using the -011 transmission, this is one that Tremec made up for a number of aftermarket companies to use for converting early model Camaros from the T5 5 speed to the T56. The front shaft is 1/2 inch longer then the standard Camaro to compensate for the adapter plate that comes with the trans, The main reason I picked this model is the ratios, first is 2.97 and 6th is 0.62 and the shifter location is same as the Viper which allows me to use the stock hole in the E24 tunnel and the engine is as far back a possible. I did fabricate a 1/2 inch thick aluminum spacer plate so I could use the Stock LS1 Camaro T56 bell housing and GM clutch throw out assembly.

HTH

[Fair]

Wow, lots of T56 questions (and a nice chart by Dave). It's really quite easy. The T56 to use comes from:

1998-2002 Camaro Z28 or Firebird Formula/Trans Am (aka: GM's 4th generation F-body). These years of the "4th gen" had the LS1 V8 engine and therefore have all of the right pieces to work with an LS1. These have an integral, factory hydraulic throwout bearing. Plentiful (100's of thousands built?) and cheap ($500-1000 used).

1993-1997 4th generation F-body had the iron LT1 engine and a substantially different T56 (1993 had unique ratios, the rest were the same). I won't comment about any downsides to the LT1 vs the LS1 (...cough... 70 pounds and about 50 horsepower... cough!...). The LT1-version of the T56 has a different bolt pattern and clutch hydraulics, among other changes. I recommend to avoid these for LS1 use, because the conversion to LS1-version is a costly hassle. Search on LS1tech.com for more specific info on this conversion.

With any factory T56, I would also ditch the 50+ pound dual mass flywheel for an aftermarket aluminum flywheel. Fidanza has a 12 pounder that is awesome, and others do as well. The stock dual mass flywheel is so heavy that if placed on a flat concrete floor you have to wedge a prybar or screwdriver underneath to even lift it! OK, now imagine spinning that quickly from idle to 7000 rpms. Now do it with almost 40 fewer pounds of reciprocating mass! Sure, it makes for a little more noise, but the LS1 still has ample torque for effortless zero speed starts.

LS1 E36 Update: We finished the transmission cross-member fabrication work late last night; it is compact and strong. Now we pull the motor and transmission yet again to final weld all of the fabricated parts and begin the ABS relocation + clutch hydraulics. Lots of hydraulic parts are on the way from Goodridge to plumb all of these changes.

A couple more weeks and it should be ready to go out for header fab. If we were not so swamped with shipping parts orders we'd get more done each night. Quit buying our stuff! Oh wait... that's not right...

[garretvs]

man, it sounds like we are at the exact same point in our swaps (the e30 LS1 project we have)! We are fabbing up the tranny cross member this week as well and just finished out engine mounts. I really like the look of your juys engine mounts and would be curious to see how you did the tranny cross member.

[garretvs]

Oh, and just thought I'd mention that if you guys need a little extra room up front you can use the LS2 water pump with "Wagner Automotive" (they build NASCAR motors) pulley spacers to make the belt run straight. It saved us about 3 inches of well needed room for the radiator.

Oh, and an e36 LS car is probably going to be our next project, though others that we've though about include a Datsun 510 with either the RB20DET or possibly the LS1 (although we need to go look at a 510 to see how much surgery that would require), a 3rd gen rx7 with an LS motor, or a 124 Mercedes with an LS motor. The e36 is the most probable though! Great work guys!