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Thread: Ignition switch

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcook320 View Post
    Do you understand how electricity, resistance or fuses work? No, the under rated switch was like putting a 5 amp fuse in a 15 amp circuit. The difference is, a fuse is designed to get hot and melt in half when too much current passes through, a switch is not.

    You can't over wire a circuit. I ran 8 gage wire because I added almost 4 feet to the factory circuit which I felt was just barely adequate. As a wire gets longer, resistance goes up. To reduce resistance, you run a larger wire. Staying with 10 gage probably would have been fine, but I wanted to be sure it wouldn't be an issue again. I haven't agreed with anything you've said. My original ignition switch WAS a "glowing coil" which is why I replaced it with one with a higher amp capacity.

    I didn't put a larger amp draw on anything, I simply upgraded the wiring to cope with the amperage requirements of the vehicle. The starter solenoid is very low amperage and runs off an 18 gage wire and isn't even part of the circuit in question.
    I do know how electricity works since i'm an electrician, and thats my error for swapping the two numbers. brain fart or something. I don't need a lecture on how things work. but thanks. I never said you upgraded anything but wiring nor did i know your had moved your battery without already uprating the wire size for the hot bus. Since you elongated the positive side for the starter, i guess you kept the fusebox in its original place? Yeah i see what you mean as to the starter being out of the picture. I'd thought the hot bus had something to do with a tap in for the solenoid drive power.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 320i78/82 View Post
    I do know how electricity works since i'm an electrician, and thats my error for swapping the two numbers. brain fart or something. I don't need a lecture on how things work. but thanks. I never said you upgraded anything but wiring nor did i know your had moved your battery without already uprating the wire size for the hot bus. Since you elongated the positive side for the starter, i guess you kept the fusebox in its original place? Yeah i see what you mean as to the starter being out of the picture. I'd thought the hot bus had something to do with a tap in for the solenoid drive power.
    lol, it gets better after a couple months with Josh.

    Josh is too smart for his britches sometimes, Robert
    Tbd

  3. #78
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    Hi ... just a bit of clarification about switch load ratings.

    One of the things I've noticed over the years, is that switches are being sold through auto outlets that don't have a DC load rating on them, only AC. This is where the problems start, people see a switch that says something like 125 V AC 15 A (for example) and assume that, if it is rated at 125 volts .. then it is good for the same (or better) at 12 volts DC.

    The trouble is, DC (direct current) is a lot harder to switch than AC (alternating current) ... to be safe (and reliable) ... rule of thumb is to halve (use 50% of) the AC current rating for use on 12 V DC ... ie for a 125VAC 15A switch ... treat it as a 7.5A switch.

    Lot's of simplified science stuff ..you have been warned

    Here's why ... strange as it may seem ... current flowing through a conductor has the equivalent of inertia in a mechanical system, ie when a current is flowing .... it wants to keep flowing. (it's all about the energy stored in the magnetic field, generated around the conductor when the current is flowing having to go somewhere when the circuit is interrupted).

    So when you open the switch, an electric arc forms between the switch contacts as they open (that's the current trying to keep flowing). In an AC circuit, the voltage and current reverse direction during each cycle so for a brief moment the current is zero as the waveform goes from +ve to -ve ... at this point in a low voltage AC circuit, the arc self-extinguishes.
    In a DC circuit, the current is flowing in one direction only, so when the switch contacts open, a large arc is draw between the contacts until they are far enough apart and the arc collapses. During this period of arcing each time the switch opens; the contact faces suffer spark erosion which leads to an increase in the contact resistance when the switch is closed. This in turn leads to heating of the contacts. The more eroded the contacts become, the more they heat up during operation. I've actually seen cases of switch contacts getting hot enough to weld themselves together so they couldn't be turned off!

    D.C. rated switches are usually a bit physically larger than A.C. switches to allow the contacts to open further to stretch and break the arc.

    Now as to what 320i78/82 was talking about ..... (ignoring the fuse analogies and hoping they will go away ) ... copper wiring is not a perfect conductor and wiring has a certain amount of internal resistance/unit length .... the smaller the cross sectional area of the conductor the higher the resistance. Under some circumstances, the internal resistance of the wiring could limit, to certain extent, the current flow through a circuit with an overheating switch. If the wiring was replaced by a larger gauge having less resistance .. then that would allow more current to flow through the circuit increasing the heating effect across the switch contacts and cause more problems. This is a possible scenario, but ... not something that can generally be predicted ... so much is dependent but the configuration and actual loading on the circuit.

    So the moral off the story .... don't get the load capacity of your switches wrong.

    Oh .... and no fuses were hurt in the writing of this post

    Cheers
    Last edited by GDAus; 03-22-2017 at 09:39 PM.
    hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...

  4. #79
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    Thanks for the post, GDaus. I always appreciate well informed input. I'm certainly no electrical engineer and I'm sure my explanations seem silly to one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GDAus View Post
    Now as to what 320i78/82 was talking about ..... (ignoring the fuse analogies and hoping they will go away ) ... copper wiring is not a perfect conductor and wiring has a certain amount of internal resistance/unit length .... the smaller the cross sectional area of the conductor the higher the resistance. Under some circumstances, the internal resistance of the wiring could limit, to certain extent, the current flow through a circuit with an overheating switch. If the wiring was replaced by a larger gauge having less resistance .. then that would allow more current to flow through the circuit increasing the heating effect across the switch contacts and cause more problems. This is a possible scenario, but ... not something that can generally be predicted ... so much is dependent but the configuration and actual loading on the circuit.
    Is this the point that 320i78/82 was trying make, or did I miss something? It seemed to me he's telling me I should have stayed with 10 guage instead of going to 8 guage. This would be the only logical reason why that would make sense, but i don't think that's an issue here.


    Quote Originally Posted by 320i78/82 View Post
    I do know how electricity works since i'm an electrician, and thats my error for swapping the two numbers. brain fart or something. I don't need a lecture on how things work. but thanks. I never said you upgraded anything but wiring nor did i know your had moved your battery without already uprating the wire size for the hot bus. Since you elongated the positive side for the starter, i guess you kept the fusebox in its original place? Yeah i see what you mean as to the starter being out of the picture. I'd thought the hot bus had something to do with a tap in for the solenoid drive power.
    I didn't feel I needed advice either which is probably why I got defensive. I tend to disagree too strongly when people offer advice I feel is wrong or not needed. I apologize. I still disagree with the need to fuse the circuit in question. The problem was an underrated made-in-china switch, problem solved.

    The starter is getting voltage directly from the battery via a 2 guage cable with soldered terminals. The fuse box gets voltage directly from the positive post on the starter via 8 gage wire with soldered terminals. The fuse box is in the stock location. I'm not sure why that's relevant to the ignition switch that failed. Once I ran 8 gage wire to the fuse box and ignition switch and replaced the bad switch, cranking is faster & stronger, the car starts quicker and my fuel pump sounds stronger and doesn't slow down when other accessories turn on. I also don't get any headlight dim with other accessories like I did before.

    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    lol, it gets better after a couple months with Josh.

    Josh is too smart for his britches sometimes, Robert
    thanks. Yes I am, not in a good way.

    '81 320i turbo | t25, 931 CIS, 240hp, 13.92@100mph | 2.2L m10 Turbo Build | My E21 Videos |

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcook320 View Post
    Is this the point that 320i78/82 was trying make, or did I miss something? It seemed to me he's telling me I should have stayed with 10 guage instead of going to 8 guage. This would be the only logical reason why that would make sense, but i don't think that's an issue here.



    I didn't feel I needed advice either which is probably why I got defensive. I tend to disagree too strongly when people offer advice I feel is wrong or not needed. I apologize. I still disagree with the need to fuse the circuit in question. The problem was an underrated made-in-china switch, problem solved.

    The starter is getting voltage directly from the battery via a 2 guage cable with soldered terminals. The fuse box gets voltage directly from the positive post on the starter via 8 gage wire with soldered terminals. The fuse box is in the stock location. I'm not sure why that's relevant to the ignition switch that failed. Once I ran 8 gage wire to the fuse box and ignition switch and replaced the bad switch, cranking is faster & stronger, the car starts quicker and my fuel pump sounds stronger and doesn't slow down when other accessories turn on. I also don't get any headlight dim with other accessories like I did before.

    To the first part, yes thats a bit of what i was going after, not so much the arcing but just the current draw. I didn't know that dc switches suffered from this phenomenon, though it makes sense with the way electricity behaves.

    Last part, the reason i had questioned your fusebox location was under the same principle for you uprating the battery cable when you moved it. I wasn't sure whether you had done so with the fusebox as well. Just because increased length stresses the current carry in the wire. So since you hadn't moved the box i wasn't sure why you changed the wire size. The poorly made switch identified itself (though i'm not sure why it took 4 years). I got done with the wiring setup on mine today. I put a 30 amp auto-reset CB in line with the 35 amp main(kill) switch i put in, from there it links power to the other three switches. I separated the ACC(Violet) and ON (Green) wires to keep the loads evened out. The push-button is still awaiting a mounting location just trying out some different ideas.

    JR- on not liking to be critisized i understand where you're coming from, in fact i think you and I are pretty much alike. I rebuilt my first motor when i was 15 but i did have a manual. I do enjoy embarking on my own projects and don't want to hear criticism on my "new idea." Though i've learned alot about listening to what everyone has to say and have developed a pretty good filter for bs...seemingly what i was throwing at you the other day. happy trails, i'll put pics up when time allows.

  6. #81
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    Now that it's cooled off abit outside, I gotta get out there and trim some more plywood for my "supercahrger brainstorm" before my wife drives the car tomorrow.

    Nope, Nope, don't say nothin yet, just be patient, Robert .
    Tbd

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by 320i78/82 View Post
    Last part, the reason i had questioned your fusebox location was under the same principle for you uprating the battery cable when you moved it. I wasn't sure whether you had done so with the fusebox as well. Just because increased length stresses the current carry in the wire. So since you hadn't moved the box i wasn't sure why you changed the wire size.
    box didn't move, the attachment point to the positive lead did. The wire used to bolt to the positive battery post, now it bolts to the starter and the wire is over a foot longer than it originally was.

    '81 320i turbo | t25, 931 CIS, 240hp, 13.92@100mph | 2.2L m10 Turbo Build | My E21 Videos |

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    Now that it's cooled off abit outside, I gotta get out there and trim some more plywood for my "supercahrger brainstorm" before my wife drives the car tomorrow.

    Nope, Nope, don't say nothin yet, just be patient, Robert .
    dude seirously like wtf does that have to do with anything being spoken in this thread? your failure of a supercharger has already created an epic failure of a thread. Go talk about your failing experiment in that and stop clogging other threads with it, hearing or reading about your "supercharger" infuriates me, atleast if you keep it in your thread i can stay away dude, seriously man.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzone View Post
    dude seirously like wtf does that have to do with anything being spoken in this thread? your failure of a supercharger has already created an epic failure of a thread. Go talk about your failing experiment in that and stop clogging other threads with it, hearing or reading about your "supercharger" infuriates me, atleast if you keep it in your thread i can stay away dude, seriously man.
    Don't call me dude, Dude . Obviousely you had no idea what I was saying, and what I said worked for two entirely seperate purposes. Apologies in two directions were acomplished, then I worked on my contraption .

    I prefer being referred to as "Robert", Robert
    Tbd

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcook320 View Post
    Yes, you can remove the old ignition switch and replace it without a key, the key has nothing to do with removing it. If you buy a new one you will then have to have 2 keys for the car, one for the doors and one for the ignition.

    You can also just remove it, hot wire the car and leave the cylinder out altogether. The wheel will not lock and you won't need a key to start the car. I would recommend finding something to fill in the hole since it will look like crap without it.
    ..you could put your weed in there.
    Jesse Evans///BMW Client Advisor///BMW of Salem
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    Quote Originally Posted by 320bimmer View Post
    i just used a chain saw. rear window still installed

  11. #86
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    My ignition switch is totally destroyed and I don't have key anyways. So I want to bypass the switch completely. Would it be possible to do this with 1 toggle and 1 starter switch rather than 2 toggles? Could you just splice the ignition and acc wires together? From doing some research the brown wires are just for door buzzers and whatnot, but what about the black wire?

  12. #87
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    So, what the heck is this in my car?


    Starts every time...but will not start without that magic "turn the key until the lights on the dash come on routine"
    Last edited by SilverPuddle; 05-13-2014 at 11:26 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverPuddle View Post
    So, what the heck is this in my car?

    Starts every time...but will not start without that magic "turn the key until the lights on the dash come on routine"
    Somebody added a 'push button' start. The key has to be in 'run' position for the engine to start when you push the button. That's all.
    What's that buzzer, seatbelt warning?

    Oh, thanks for bringing up one of the dark secrets from my past. lol
    Tbd

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    Somebody added a 'push button' start. The key has to be in 'run' position for the engine to start when you push the button. That's all.
    What's that buzzer, seatbelt warning?

    Oh, thanks for bringing up one of the dark secrets from my past. lol
    That buzz is the seatbelt warning...man is it annoying. I guess I will have to take it apart and fit it, sometime...later...I guess.

    I don't like things like this unless I planned it that way. Anyway, I need to check on a switch price.
    Thanks.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverPuddle View Post
    That buzz is the seatbelt warning...man is it annoying. I guess I will have to take it apart and fit it, sometime...later...I guess.

    I don't like things like this unless I planned it that way. Anyway, I need to check on a switch price.
    Thanks.
    I mentioned in your other thread that Tom D has fixed at least one of the ignition switches, Maybe he can help. He may have even mentioned how he fixed his in this thread, I didn't take the time to look.
    Tbd

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverPuddle View Post
    So, what the heck is this in my car?


    Starts every time...but will not start without that magic "turn the key until the lights on the dash come on routine"
    Okay, I am just getting back to fixing this switch. Is it the switch that is busted or the housing and how do you tell what is the problem? Any help is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Puddles

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverPuddle View Post
    Okay, I am just getting back to fixing this switch. Is it the switch that is busted or the housing and how do you tell what is the problem? Any help is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Puddles
    You'll probably need a test meter and a peek at the electrical manual (linked in FAQ/DIY thread) to know for sure.

    Tom D has repaired an ignition switch. If that's what's wrong, maybe he'll chime in and point you toward his procedure.
    Tbd

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcook320 View Post
    repost:

    If you ever need to, here's how to remove the cylinder:

    Remove the under column panel. Once off, you'll see 7 total round-head security bolts:
    (A) Metal retaining plate over the lock cylinder
    (B) 4 round-head bolts just above the lock cylinder. These attach the steering column to the upper column cover where the lock cylinder is housed.
    (C) Further towards the front of the car is a bracket that holds the column to the dash support brace. After removal the column will drop enough to separate the upper cover from the column.

    Using a dremel, grind flats in all 7 bolt heads and use a hammer/screwdriver to rotate and loosen each bolt. The lock cylinder will not come out until the cover is unbolted and separated from the column. I replaced all these bolts with regular hex bolts. Once the bolts are out, unplug the cylinder and it should now slide out freely.




    To hot wire/bypass the factory ignition switch:

    Skip all the hassle above and leave the switch in for column lock security. It's a pretty simple wiring job to bypass the switch. I used 2 "aircraft" style ignition switches and a start button from my local autoparts store.

    Unplug the ign. switch wiring harness under the dash. Use male and female spade connectors and heat shrink tubing to insulate to make your connections.

    (A) Red wire - 4mm^2 (10 gauge) - hot from the battery.
    (B) Purple wire - 4mm^2 (10 gauge)- ACC
    (C) Green Wire - 4mm^2 (10 gauge) - Ignition
    (D) Black wire - 2.5mm^2 (12 gauge) - Starter Wire
    (E) Plug to starter wire

    Run a 10 gauge wire from the hot wire (A) to a switch then back to the large purple wire (B). This switch becomes ACC. Run another 10 gauge wire from the hot lead (A) to another switch, then back to the large green wire (C), this becomes ignition. Then run a smaller 12 gauge wire (D) from the hot lead (A) to a start button then back to the starter plug (E). This wire goes to terminal 50 on the starter. You will end up with 3 wires off the hot lead (A) going to your 2 switches and a start button. If you want to operate everything from one switch, simply run a single 10 gauge wire to your switch, then split off the switch with 2 wires - one to the purple ACC wire and one to the green ignition wire. You will also have to reconnect the horn wire (brown w/ yellow stripe) and 2 other wires that don't show up on a wiring diagram. My guess is that one of them has to do with the key/door buzzer and one is the bulb test circuit, but I'm not sure. Since I use the old ignition switch to lock the column (thus I have to turn the key to drive the car) I just ran a small jumper from 1 side of the plug to the corresponding terminal on the other plug to connect the horn and the extra wires.







    To start the car, turn the key to unlock the column, flip your switches up, hit the start button, and away you go.
    Looking for this last photo, anyone have it? Need a view of the switches I need to buy.

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