I wonder about AA Turbo M3 vs F40/F50 Ferraris

[PM3]

I know of guys in Miami outrunning Porsche 993 Twin Turbos and Viper GTS (not right off the line, but say from second gear-on) in acceleration runs, and even one regular Stage2 keeping up with a Diablo Lambo. So I got curious in wondering how these cars would do against a Ferrari F40 or Ferrari F50. These are always fun topics for me to think about....We know that Tommy's turbo has pulled an 11.8 flat, and other Stage2 and Stage2+ turbos are running low 12s...

Anyways, I USED to think:

Sure they can keep up, but with mid to high 3-second 0-60 blasts by these cars the M3s don't have a chance with the turbo lag and traction they get off the line. After that, they do about the same time to the quartermile, probably meaning the M3 has caught up and is passing it at trap. Maybe from 80mph-on the Turbo M3 could win? hmmm

--But this was just assuming the US tests of these cars:

Ferrari F50

Car and Driver, 1/97: 12.1@123mph
Road and Track, 12.1@ n/a

Ferrari F40

Car and Driver, 2/91: 12.1@122mph
Road and Track, 10/91: 11.8@ n/a

With this info I safely assumed that after the Turbo M3s get going (ie if they'd start with these guys from about 35-50mph) they'd have a chance, no?

Well, watching these professional Japanese drivers test cars in the Best Motoring videos got me thinking, "holy crap!"
In the last race of the video, with the Ferraris against the Porsches and Skyline, etc (all street cars) the F40 makes a pass on the 993 GT-2 Porsche (yes, the crazy-ass, ltw Porsche Turbo). They both dive into turn, the Ferrari gets in front, and they exit one behind the other, at like 40mph. From here the Ferrari started to just PULL on the GT2, and it was easily visible because the on-board camera at the time was in the Porsche. The Ferrari's pulling away...

Then they do 0-400m tests which is 20 ft shy of 1/4m, if I do my math right (400m x 39 inches = 15,600 in; div by 12 to get feet= 1300 (vs only 1320 for 1/4m).

F50 : 11.109 @ 204.9 km/h, which is 11.109 @ 127.27mph!!
this Ferrari only has Tubi exhaust
by comparions, R&T's 0-120mph time is 11.6, and this BM-tested one is going 7mph fast, 1/2 second sooner!!!

F40 : 11.293 @ 203.6 km/h (peels out when turbos kicks in, a la 300zx TT style) which is 11.293 @ 126.4mph!
by comparison, C&D's 0-120mph time is 11.0 (which is faster than the C&D F50 Test)

For comparison reasons, their Diablo SV got a 12.1@116.45mph, which sounds about right.

Wacthing these guys take off makes apparent their perfect launches--but damn! That's a huge differece from magazine tests. Maybe these cars are much faster than we thought??

So now, I'm forced to ask: Any boys in Ferrari-infested Miami take a try at one of these with their M3 Turbos? I know there was a yellow F50 that was practically ALWAYS in Miami Beach everytime I went there...I'm very curious. CYA>PM3

[Anfanger]

Its a Ferrari - good luck. In any scenario, an F40 or F50 will dominate 100+ mph... just because of the power to weight ratio.
For god sakes, you can break lose the rear wheels if you just floor it at freeway speeds.
Im sorry to say everyone (dont flame me, please) but our BMWs are nowhere near Ferrari. Theyre two completely different breeds of animal. If you dont believe me, go test drive one.

[Kevlar]

I took on a Ferrari once... a baby blue Ferrari 360 Marnello. I pulled up next to him and admired his car for a second. I then downshifted into 2nd and got on it... and I was ahead!!!!

Then he figured out what was happening... he downshifted and my 3/4 of a car lead was shattered to pieces in a mere matter of milliseconds. My exhaust note went from deep and menacing to a wimpering rumble as it was drowned out by the Ferrari's SCREAM!

I could almost swear a message flash on the OBC that said "WTF?!?! It's a FERRARI!" as my car went from the strong beast used to picking on other cars to a shaken child now running to hide in the corner as the shadow of the Ferrari's amazing power robbed my car of all dignity.

[Atticka]

where's blown.......

?

[axion911]

i would say it depends a lot on the driver

[PM3]

Originally posted by Anfanger
Im sorry to say everyone (dont flame me, please) but our BMWs are nowhere near Ferrari. Theyre two completely different breeds of animal. If you dont believe me, go test drive one.

Oh I agree with you! I've had the privilege to be in a few. But I am not comparing BMW or M3 versus Ferrari. I am just curious, having ridden in 3 different Stage2+ setups from AA, if these puppies would keep up with one. After thinking this through, I'd have to believe that they wouldn't. But then again, I don't know for sure. From the numbers I previously posted it sounds like "no way!", but I'd like to hear other opinions, just for kicks.

I don't mean off the line either (The Ferraris would ROMP in this scenario!). I mean just KEEP UP, as in you pull next to one at 40+mph, you both hammer it... anyone suspect it would be close? Anyone suspect an ass-whoopin'?
Just from the reading (and the video of that F40 pulling away from the Porsche GT2 out of the Suzuka turn), I think it wouldn't be much of a contest. low 11-second, 127mph blasts means these suckers get scootin'!

This is just another way I fantasize about those machines.

Now, there's something that bothers me about this. These US rags still get mid to high 3-second 0-60mph blasts, which means they're obviously launching them fairly well!!! Wouldn't you agree? Well then why such a difference in the times after 110mph? Is it that complicated to shift to 4th. What's missing here? Could it be that they're actually screwing up 0-60 and they should be like high 2's, in order to get low-mid 1/4m times? I wouldn't think this is the case, personally. So what could it be? : CYA>PM3

[Anfanger]

Its all the gearing that determines the times... for example I will use the F50. This is car has an 8500 rpm redline... and like BMWs it is built for high-end power and torque (though it still has enough in the low-end ). So that, along with a desire to top out at near 200mph, you would want to throw in a close-ratio transmission. Without going into the great detail of data I had to find and numbers I had to crunch, (on the F50) first gear goes until about 63mph, second to about 89mph, third to about 112mph, fourth to about 134mph, fifth to about 161mph, and sixth to about 197mph. You can see why its described as a close-ratio transmission. Anyway, since first gear is rather low (2.79:1) it takes some "time" for it to get going... but after that, the close-ratio gearing and gobs of power enable it to blast away. Manufacturers like Ferrari dont give a crap about 0-60, they know what the driver wants is 60-200 (you know what I mean, you somehow bogged your start at the stoplight, and the rice-mobile that had the gall to race you is out in front of you, and then you reach highway speeds, and then you slowly smile as his torque-less plastic piece slowly passes behind you and into your rear view... ah the high end).

[PM3]

I think you may be misunderstanding me. My point is, EVEN with that tall first gear, the F50/F40 is way quicker than a turbo M3 will ever be to 60, so I didn't even use that in the question. My question is, could a Turbo M3 keep up with that AFTER 45mph (or 60), where they are both in their strength zones...
You make some good points, which would only solidify the fact that, "no they won't...an F50 will walk away anyways". My point is that IF a Turbo M3 ever had the chance, it would be after 2nd gear, because it's not great to sixty as well. It shines afterwards, see what I mean? The F50 has the tall gear in 1st disadvantage (i believe you, Italians don't care as much for 0-60) and the M3 has the 1st and 2nd gear disadvantage with not enough traction...
but I still don't think they (the turbo M3s) will keep up after 2nd gear, and I used to think they would...but I could be wrong!
again, this is not a big deal, just thoughts off the top of my head. Last thing we need in this thread is someone to jump in and say, "why compare the two? yadda yadda yadda"...It's just a for-fun-thread, for those of you who are planning to put a stop to this conversation, CYA>PM3

[Anfanger]

{In New York Italian mob voice} Eh, dont worry about it!

[Kevlar]

I've never ridden in a Ferrari before... but I have ridden in a majorly powerful Turbo MCoupe. The Turbo MCoupe was probably capable of mid to low 11s in the 1/4... it's never been tested. The driver says he's beat Ferraris & Lamborghinis even a 900cc motorcycle (by 3-4 carlengths). The races were informal... not from a complete stop, but from a rolling start... maybe about 40-50 upwards of 110.

The Turbo MCoupe has a few more advantage than the M3 by having a wider rear stance and the gearing in the Turbo MCoupe was changed to bring back the use of 1st & 2nd gears (1st is still pretty useless if you hammer it to redline).

I'm sure the Ferrari & Lambo drivers were suprised. The motorcycle rider (so I'm told) was shocked that he was handed his ass by a BMW.

[PM3]

I recall being in the 6sp Stage2+ M3 Turbo, racing what appeared to be either a Monster Ducati, or one of those crazy Buells (sp?). ANyway, this was still when my bud's car had leaning-out problems and was still around 380rw Dynojet HP (now is at 355HP mustang). Anyways, this bike, on the freeway, wouldn't keep up.
Next thing, I don't know what the F happend, he tries to race us again, and just ROCKETS by us. Tremendously loud and just blasting past us, and we were well in to the 140s already. I have a feeling he got a sip from the 'bottle', you know how the f'n Floridians are, . It was pretty funny. I honestly had never seen a bike take off that fast, and I have ridden/seen many. CYA>PM3

[GMat]

If a turbo bmw were ever to have a chance actually i would believe it would be off the line. I dont know exactly how magazines are getting the super low 0-60 times in these cars but i can tell you theyre most likely beating the shit out of them. Anfanger is absolutely correct, the cars arent made to go 0-60 theyre built for 60-160. The f-40 is hard as hell to launch. The clutch is so heavy your leg spasms if you hold it in for any length of time. Too little gas and the car lurches forward almost stalling, any more than 1/2 throttle in first and the back tires light up (and these are biiiiiig tires) A fast 1/2 shift will leave you roasting the tires AGAIN as will a fast shift from 2/3. The best way to race someone is at about 60 mph in second gear. You romp on it, brain gets pinned by 24pounds of boost, shift into third, then fourth and before you know it youre doing 160 within a matter of seconds. Ive tracked the f-40 at Seattle International Raceway with avon slicks on the car, and there wasnt another car there that even came close. 993 turbos arent even close to a match for the car, and diablos are only competitive under 120. As soon as I decide what im going to do with my car sell it or build it, I'll let you guys know how the two compare. (If i build my car im going to go to an obdI system with an AA turbo.) So anyways from my experience I would say if youre going to try and take one of these cars do it off the line before they can get any traction.

[PM3]

after seeing an F50 light up (on purpose) exiting a restaurant on PCH (Speedway at 4:30am watchin live F1, anyone done this??) a few years ago, I'd have to say I've never seen anything take off that fast with four wheels on a street. It was the most amazing sight (and sound) I'd ever heard. Seeing how fast it was off the line I can't imagine how fast it would be after 80+mph. CYA>PM3

[RUddin3]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the 993 gt variants called the GT3? And the weren't the turbocharged versions of the engine, rather a warmed-over carrera engine?

Later,
1994 Dinan 3

[PM3]

Like for the 996, there were GT2 and GT3 variants of the 993, both of which didn't make it in the states. You are correct, GT3 had no turbo. In this video they had a Porsche 911 Turbo, a Porsche GT3 and a GT2. The only one that gave the two Ferraris half a fight was the 993 GT2, and I believe it had a rated 430bhp. CYA>PM3

[tampaturbom3]

i've personally never seen an F40 or F50, muchless on the streets. i did see, touch, feel, smell, etc a gorgeous yellow modena. as for racing my m3, i think that the F40 and F50 are about the only ones that would outrun it,,, i don't think 355's, 348's, etc, etc, would even be close. ditto on the lambo, only the 4wd will give me real competition. the rear wheel drive one won't hang.... that's why the guy at the show wigged out on me when my Badrap.net buddies started running their mouths after the guy had said he would race w/ me with his 2001 diablo.
i agree that once rolling, my car is exponentually faster. for the strong cars at the track that get ahead at the launch, i reel them in around the 1/8 mile mark. at 119 to 122 mph trap speed, you can reel most cars in. hehe