How many 96+ guys would buy a 95 if they had to do it over again?

[qwickm3]

I'm just curious as to how many of you 96+ M3 owners would buy a 95 if you had to do it over again. There is always the talk of obd I and the handling characteristics of the 95 in favorable terms but if you really could go back to the beginning knowing what you know now would take the 95?

[Keda]

I think there are alot of performance options out now for the 96+. I'm happy w/mine and would do it again.

The exception being if I was building a track car. 95s can run an SC in many events, while the 3.2s can't. This is a big advantage if you want to go FI.

[frayed]

I'm torn. A 95 is cheaper has better fron suspension geometry, and hp is a bit more accessible (ie, cheaper). So, for a combo track/daily driver, it's a bargain.

But, they didn't make sedans in 95.

So, in the end, probably not.

The joy of pounding a 'better' car, and particularly those pseudo exotics, into submission via a sedan carrying a baby on board sticker is quite rewarding.

[///Major Havoc]

I was just about to say that about the lack of a sedan. I still wanted a '93 E34 M5 when the '95 and '96 M3s were out. I did not start looking strongly at the M3 as a prospect till the 4drs car out in '97. Also like Keda said there are a great deal of Mods now for the '96+ cars with dyno proven horsepower gains.
I keep my '98 thanks!

[Neil]

SCCA has just increased SM2 (autox) displacement limits for forced induction from 3.0 to 4.0 liters for ohc engines. Guess what mod I'm now considering!

[Def]

Coming from a Honda, I don't mind the extra low end grunt of the 3.2L.

Besides, the "difficulty" in modifying the engine is a good thing for me. Keeps me from just saying, "that seems like an easy 10hp." $5000+ later I'd be kicking myself in the ass and still not have a very fast car(i.e. what most slow Honda owners do to their car).

This way, I've got a "capable" powertrain, and can concentrate on the important stuff(suspension).

[Jim Bassett]

Originally posted by frayed

The joy of pounding a 'better' car, and particularly those pseudo exotics, into submission via a sedan carrying a baby on board sticker is quite rewarding.

What Jeff said (minus the baby on board sticker - blech )

Jim Bassett
1998 M3/4 - former track car and sometimes Nikolas-hauler

[frayed]

Originally posted by Jim Bassett


(minus the baby on board sticker - blech )

(that part was added for effect. my friends know a baby on board sticker would interfere with my bLinG)

[Jim O.]

It's a lot cheaper for me to change out the entire front suspension and install a Tec3 on my 96 than it would be to put a 3.2L motor into a 95. And now that I have the Tec3, the whole OBD2 tuning issue becomes moot...

Jim

[Carcrazy]

what's different about the front suspension geometry of the 95? Is the rear geometry identical? Any differences in spring rates, f or rear?

[96cosmosM3]

Originally posted by qwickm3
I'm just curious as to how many of you 96+ M3 owners would buy a 95 if you had to do it over again. There is always the talk of obd I and the handling characteristics of the 95 in favorable terms but if you really could go back to the beginning knowing what you know now would take the 95?

I had a had a 95 briefly and now got a 96. If I want obd1 it will cost me much less than transplanting a 3.2 into a 95 (which alot of people are doing).

The 96+ cars have some good improvements over the 95 cars. Retainers, final drive, exhaust,headers, rims etc

[bmwpower]

What's different about the 96+ exhaust?

[SG_M3]

Its better flowing than the 95.

[Jim O.]

Originally posted by Neil
SCCA has just increased SM2 (autox) displacement limits for forced induction from 3.0 to 4.0 liters for ohc engines. Guess what mod I'm now considering!

Just out of curiosity, where did you hear this? I haven't seen it in FastTrack, and haven't seen it discussed on any of the autox mailing lists that I'm on.

Jim

[///Mr. Three]

I agree with all that has been said. I have driven both exstensively and find that the shorter gearing and better torque curve is better for steet driving. (ie 96 and up.) In the later models the details make it a little easier to live with: the better cup holders, the almost better HK stereo, the digital climate control, smaller side markers etc. The tunability of the 95 is enviable; I would buy one if it was my second/track car. My .02 cents at least.
-Alex

[Mode]

Since most tangible things have been mentioned, I'll add an extra (somewhat) trivial data point. The color I wanted limited my choice to 96+. No regrets.

[RenaissanceMan]

in spite of my tranny problem which is pissing me off, i LOVE my '98. i am totally giddy over its low end torque, and i feel it definitely has a slight torque edge over the '95's i test drove before buying. also, i know it's not necessarily the best setup for handling, but i think my staggered wheel setup looks KILLIN'. the view of the car from the front quarter is absolutely menacing to me. it does seem that there are some legitimate performance mods out there now for obdII... i'll keep mine for a while, thanks!

[whakiewes]

I will throw in another factor, price. I can go onto autotrader right now and buy an M3 for 13.9k. I have looked at it, beautiful car. Going prices right now for 95's are between 14k and 18k with the occasional 20k mile 95 for 22/23k. For a 96+, they are holding their value nicely. I mean they ARE going down, but still are in the low 20's.

About the digital climate control. I dont really care for it, it just adds more electronics that are prone to problems when push. My goal would be to have the basic geometry of an E30 m3, in an E36 M3 body. Just plain race car, detuned for the street.


Wes

[frayed]

My goal would be to have the basic geometry of an E30 m3, in an E36 M3 body.

Not quite sure what you mean here, but the suspension geometry differences b/t the 95 and 96+ are not significant, in the sense that 96+ cars can be easily tweaked for reduced bumpsteer and understeer.

As for the E30 M3, I'm quite happy none of the E36's share its rear suspension setup. It's inferior.

[RogRacer]

Let's not forget that *legally* you can to a lot more to a OBD I car. IMO, '95s will be extra special as all the E36s get older and things need to get replaced. At engine rebuild/replacement time, the sky is pretty much the limit without many legal issues. Kind of analogous to the "pre emissions" cars back in the 70s. Of course, this will depend on the state in which you live, but I gotta believe a '95, 10 years from now, will be a lot more desirable for this reason.

[Cobra Jet]

The 96+ exhausts are free flowing how?

Are the actual exhaust pipe diameters larger from the header to the tail?

Are the cats higher free flowing or larger than 95 cats?

The only major difference I know of is the exhaust headers are different, lighter and made better than the 95 cast iron units.

Can someone please elaborate more on the 96+ M3 factory exhaust?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as the 95 goes, why not just upgrade the 95 with 96+ parts - then you have the best of both worlds (of course I mean the little stuff, not the engine/OBD items).

I also hear alot of people saying how it is more costly to upgrade the 96+ M3's with performance items, especially those that deal with the engine, exhaust or engine management. This is one of the big factors that swayed me into buying my 95 M3. I poked around alot on the net. I researched, read numerous BMW web sites with postings regarding the pros and cons of each M3, plus talking to bmwpower before I made a decision on model year.

Another thing is true, which is stated above - but this is not true for every geographic location - the cost of a 95 M3 is in an affordable range, whereas the 96+ are still costly. 95 M3's in NJ are ranging anywhere from $16k-$24k, whereas the 96+ are starting at $25k+. There were a few 99's that bmwpower and I were looking at, and the asking prices were $33k+... So, it depends on how much you want to spend, how much you can spend or are willing to spend to own one. PLUS - you also need to remember that once you find that M3 you want, consider the insurance costs...

Basically the M3 from 95-99 was the same shell, exterior styling cues and same interior except for very minor additions over the 4 years.

The other difference I noted after I installed M3 Contours from the original 95 10 spoke wheels is I definitiely have more understeer, and the car is not as "tight" going into corners as it was. in my opinion, the car handled much better with the 4 10 spokes that were all the same size. I'll be switching the smaller front M Contour wheels out to match the same size as the rears - in the future....

So, in trying to upgrade the exterior look of my 95 to the 96+, I lost some handling aspects, but will get that corrected later on.

I think the 95 M3 has plenty of power and can hang with most vehicles out there. Even though I have an automatic, I'm only feeling 10% less than what you guys with manual trannies feel, so there really is not any big loss in performance to me.

bmwpower - when are you going to be getting your M? Which model year are you looking at getting?

[frayed]

The entire exhaust system, from the manifold back is different. The 96's got free-er flowing cats and exhaust. Most say that the tubular manifold of the 96+ flow better than the cast units of the 95's, although there are some dispute to that.

[aus]

Originally posted by Jim O.
It's a lot cheaper for me to change out the entire front suspension and install a Tec3 on my 96 than it would be to put a 3.2L motor into a 95. And now that I have the Tec3, the whole OBD2 tuning issue becomes moot...

Jim

JimO, can you elaborate on the Tec3? What does it do to allow better tuning for an OBDII car and how much does it cost? Thanks.

[vjlax18]

I have a 98, and wouldn't go to a 95, but I still do not understand what what on with the 3.0L to the 3.2L. Ok, so the 3.0L had 240HP, and then they bring out the 3.2L with 240HP also... but the 3.2L has a better flowing exhaust? OBD-II or not, the 3.2L should have more power than that. By my stupid calculations, the 3.2L should have 256HP with the same exhaust as the 3.0L. So above 260HP with the better exhaust. I know, I'm rambling... sorry.

[M3inSC]

If I had known that my 98 was going to end up being "almost" a dedicated track car, I might have gotten a 95 for a lot less money. But on the other hand, I'm still covered by warranty for another 20k miles, something I could not have done with a 95!