Yes, of course!!!
Kind of, but I'm still confused.....
What is this about again???
EDIT: This has now become a M52/M50 performance thread
This question is asked SOO much (over 150 threads) and I didn't see an "official" thread and I was hoping to get enough good info, that it may get "Stickied" or "Parked" atop the E36 board
Q: What is this all about?
A: The M50 mani.(92-95) flows 40% more air per Cylinder, than the M52(96+) mani. Source - BMW-M.net
Q: What type of improvements can I expect?
A: This is a 2 part question. 2 things will happen initially...
No Tuning
*Some loss of low-end Tq
*Car will pull Much stronger from 5k-redline
With Tuning
*Loss if Tq almost undetectable
*top end even STRONGER
Here's a Dyno from Eurospeed(no longer in Bizz, got my swap done there in early '02 and AA s/w in use). Tq Left, HP right...
Yellow=stock, Green=M50 + s/w
Q. OK, the upgrade is done and my car doesn't feel much faster, what's the deal ???
A. If your car is running and idling smoothly, for the most part, it went together correctly. You may notice the car winds up faster, you're obviously accelerating faster or that wouldn't happen. The reason you feel the way you do is from the midrange Tq loss. As your car sits right now, it is down about 10-15 ft/lbs of Tq in the midrange. Don't panic! This correlates to what I am bout to explain. The car is now flowing about 20% more air, it will run lean for a few days. This is what I have learned from first hand experience as well as from Eurosport, from Active Autowerke and from a few others that helped pave the way for this mod. The DME has a feature called "Adaptation". It learns your driving style as well as the configuration of the car and then adapts to those changes. When doing a major mod like this, it is recommend that you go to a dealer or independent and have them clear the adaptation, then drive the snot out of it for a few days so the car learns all over again. This will allow the computer to adjust more quickly to the change. If you don't have that luxury, that's OK too. Drive the care hard for a week then install your software upgrade. I have been told this is the best way to squeeze every possibly bit of performance out of the car. Let the DME adjust the best it can for a few days, then FLASH IT! That way once the car has optimized the settings that the software doesn't touch, the custom tune comes along and finishes the job. It's hard to explain, but I have read that explanation from a well respected tuner, a long time ago.
Q: OK, you convinced me. What do I do next?
A: Again, more than 1 answer.
Step 1 - Acquire a M50 manifold; junk yard, eBay, friend of a friend or The Forum
-The easiest way to be sure its an OBD1 mani. is the Pinwheel on the front of manifold and notice the angle of the bottom. All runners appear to be connected as well. Also, you can look for part number 11611735727, manifold part numbers ending in ...728 and ...730 SHOULD be good as well. P/N 1161720612 is good too but may require minor modification.
Step 2 - Install it.... This isn't HARD, just time consuming and you need to be certain to properly route all the vacuum connections. To make things easy, there are a few Supporting Vendors here that sell an Install Kit. It's not required, but I am told that it is certainly more convenient and less work is involved. If you go out on your own, you can get the parts from the home improvement store. Here's a few DIY sites for the install. DIY Link1
Q: My M50 swap is done and it runs like Poo!? HELP?
A: Relax, are all connections tight? Do you hear any Vacuum leaks? Double check your instructions and pictures. If all seems to be correct, let it run for a bit. The car needs to adjust to the major increase of incoming air. Once it smoothes out, go for a drive and see how it feels.
Q: How can I get my lost Tq back or increase performance a bit more?
A: In the past 3 years I have learned that most OBD-2 performance s/w upgrades from the major vendors and tuning companies, work well w/ the manifold swap. I.E. your $#@&* Injector or you &@~ Auto Powersport Programmer, all help with the mod.
Q: Ok, the M50 swap is going well and I enjoy the new power band. What else can I do?
A:It's all about improving volumetric efficiency, Engines are big air pumps, more air in + more fuel in + more air out=more power. Here are a list of N/A mods for your OBD-2 Bimmer. Starting with some easy non engine stuff.
1. Reduce the weight! Pull your spare tire(cheap and saves 30+ lbs) Buy some lightweight wheels. Take out the back seat bench if you don't haul passengers often(10lbs)
2. Clutch Delay Valve removal. This will improve your shifting speed, reduce clutch wear and make you "quicker". Here's the link to CDV Delete
3. C.A.I or Shielded/Short Ram setup. If for some reason you haven't already upgraded, DO IT NOW!(if you didn't understand that lingo, step away from the M50 and put down your wrenches, lol)
4. Upgrade exhaust. this is pretty self-explanatory. Aftermarket exhaust usually saves you 20-25lbs too!
5. Underdrive Pulleys. Underdrive Pulleys reduce parasitic drag by reducing the speed of the water pump and power steering pulleys relative to the crank pulley speed.
6. Fan Delete. Eliminating the engine-driven fan on any E36 can improve throttle response and reduce strain on the engine. Removing the engine-driven fan will free up horsepower lost to parasitic drag and eliminate the possibility of radiator damage due to fan blade contact if you experience a broken belt, failed water pump, radiator hold down or engine mount. It also removes a ticking time bomb, the fragile plastic fan. Lower temp. fan switch and thermostat allow you to safely run only the auxiliary electric fan.
There's an FDM sticky atop the E36 forum
7. Drive Train. A lightweight flywheel is going to dramatically improve throttle response and theoretically "lighten" the car.
8. CAMS!!! This is a 1,2 punch with the Manifold. M3 cams can easily add 15-20 hp to your properly tuned 2.8L Bimmer. Schrick cams can make even more power, but at $1000 a pair(new) versus $300ish(used) for M cams, a majority goes with S52 cams(96-99 M). Here's a Dyno of what our 'lil 2.8's can do with these mods and Correct software(Eurosport Dyno). Pretty Impressive I think!!
9. ASC Delete: So you have modded all N/A aspects of the engine, what's left? Remove traction control and smooth the intake tract with a silicone hose from SAMCO! Here's my SAMCO ASC Delete Review.
10. BBTB: A Big Bore Throttle Body is the last possible N/A mod left. This improves throttle response and can make as much as 5 WHP on non M cars
11. Diff Swap. Now that we Make M power, we need M gearing! Find a used diff. the 96-99 M3's used a 3.23 LSD and the Auto's used a 3.38 LSD. Either would get you into serious performance territory.
I hope you have found this to be useful & I appreciate any feedback you may have(I hope its constructive). Please feel free to add to this, as I am trying to create an Official Thread and if I'm lucky it will be stickied.
P.S. I have done all these mods and I LOVE HOW MY CAR RUNS!!!
~Phil
Last edited by LuvMy328is; 01-18-2022 at 01:20 AM.
Madeiraviolett Bf.C club member #001
1996 BMW 328is Madeiraviolett/Dove Grey: 5 Spd, Sport, Cold Weather & Premium Sound pkgs.
3.5" ECIS/ITG intake -> Samco ASC Delete Boot -> DINAN TB -> M50 Manifold -> S52 Cams | Bav Auto Red-top ignition coils tuned w/ AA software, Dynomax Cats & Stromung exhaust UUC Pulleys & Clutch stop, FDM=Zionsville radiator, Mishimoto Tank, SAMCO hoses, Fidanza LTW flywheel & M3 clutch, UUC Evo3 SSK, 3.23 LSD, Koni/Eibach Adjustable Damper suspension, PUR RSM's & RTABs, CF Strut brace, UUC Swaybarbarians, Motorsport X-Brace, 17x8 Beyern Mesh wheels Hella CELIS projectors + 5k TRS HID's, Fog delete=Brake cooling duct, LTW wing, ///M Bumper & R. Diffuser
CCA Member #382557
Nice job! We need a thread like this, hopefully it will help!
-Chris
+1 for this thread to be parked.
One thing though, when I looked a the Dyno chart for the cam upgrade, I noticed something wrong. A stock 328i is suppose to have 193 peak HP and 206 peak Torque. I don't know what kind of 328i they were using.
Anyway, nice thread.
'96 328i - K&N Short ram | Clutch stop | M50 manifold | Clears all around | HIDs | M-Tech bumper
Here is a link for you guys who want a to get a M50 Manifold kit:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...29#post6672629
'96 328i - K&N Short ram | Clutch stop | M50 manifold | Clears all around | HIDs | M-Tech bumper
Here is a link for you guys who want a to get a M50 Manifold kit:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...29#post6672629
'96 328i - K&N Short ram | Clutch stop | M50 manifold | Clears all around | HIDs | M-Tech bumper
your numbers are measured at the crank...these dynos are measured at the wheels. what is the S.A.E. std drag loss? 15%? so the new crank HP number would be in the 228HP range.Originally Posted by Sephiroth13
Eric Paul Eviston - 1 Piece Silicone Hose M50 Manifold Conversion Kit
******M50 Manifold Install Trouble Shooting Guide Here: www.m50manifold.com
'98 M3/4 - ECIS CAI, S50 Manifold, Conforti Software, 16" Spal Puller, UUC Pulleys, Fan Delete, UUC Stage 2 Fly w/M5 Clutch, UUC Blacks w/TMEs, X-Brace, GC RTAB shims, GC RSMs,
M Roadster lever, 245x40x17 all 4 corners, Drilled Zimmermans, Motul RBF600 and Redline Synth fluids. My Dyno HERE
My Website: www.m50manifold.com
My Email: info@m50manifold.com
Excellent literatyre review, puts all the current resaerch out there right here. I hope this helps a lot of ppl that ask every week about the M50 manifold swap thanks again for the write up.Lee
Nice work with the thread it should get a sticky. Maybe you should try finding another dynograph though, since chassis dyno's result in unrealistlically high RWHP numbers, but at least you can see the impressive result's of the m50 mani...
Good Point Here's my Dyno from a Mustang MD-1500. This was before the Cam Software and with a leaking Intake boot.Originally Posted by m3mobbin
185 whp Uncorrected, 198 Corrected
170 Tq Uncorrected, 182 Corrected
~Phil
Last edited by LuvMy328is; 04-10-2007 at 01:00 AM.
Madeiraviolett Bf.C club member #001
1996 BMW 328is Madeiraviolett/Dove Grey: 5 Spd, Sport, Cold Weather & Premium Sound pkgs.
3.5" ECIS/ITG intake -> Samco ASC Delete Boot -> DINAN TB -> M50 Manifold -> S52 Cams | Bav Auto Red-top ignition coils tuned w/ AA software, Dynomax Cats & Stromung exhaust UUC Pulleys & Clutch stop, FDM=Zionsville radiator, Mishimoto Tank, SAMCO hoses, Fidanza LTW flywheel & M3 clutch, UUC Evo3 SSK, 3.23 LSD, Koni/Eibach Adjustable Damper suspension, PUR RSM's & RTABs, CF Strut brace, UUC Swaybarbarians, Motorsport X-Brace, 17x8 Beyern Mesh wheels Hella CELIS projectors + 5k TRS HID's, Fog delete=Brake cooling duct, LTW wing, ///M Bumper & R. Diffuser
CCA Member #382557
Wow this thread is a big help great tips great post
ASC Delete
Silicone Throttle Body Boot
all tho they do the same thing and remove the ASC, the silicone boot is an upgrade to the standard asc delete boot.
Big Bore Throttle Body (BBTB)- OBDII only has one option, and thats Dinan...definetely better throttle response, but i would reccomend getting it with their software, or like me i put an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (FPR) to add a lil bit more fuel to the slightly inscreased air flow of the larger TB. Yes the car ran WAAAYYY better with the addition of the adjustable FPR, and when on the dyno we did see a 3 or so whp increase when we upped the fuel pressure.
Headers are also an option, but on our cars you will either lose usuable power band, barely gain anything at all anywhere, and at the most you are looking at a 6-7whp increase, and thats on a highly modded M engine.
Basically a no go in most cases.
And another piece that can up your HP and performance would be a carbon Fiber driveshaft. Similar principle to a lightweight flywheel, but in this case you will see an increase in power as well as accelaration. This is the only NA performance part i do not have, and i am on the fence about it...i guess i'll decide after a re-dyno.
Feel free to add/edit this to your first post and re-word if neccesary.
Cap
M52 Guru
Originally Posted by Captain
+1 making this sticky.
and i am curious as to what all you have done, and how much horsepower you are making.
bmw-less.
Nice thread Phill. Very informative. So when are you going to be picking up that 3.23 LSD? Also just for reference there are peole on the boards with 2.8's running cams, manifold, pullies, intake, exhaust, 3.5 HFM and other bolt ons making 230whp.
~Preston
For Sale, E36
92-95 Non M Airbag-$50
21.5# injectors(50k miles)-$60
Crystal Clear 4 door corners-$20
Grey 2dr C Pillars covers-$30
Grey Sunvisors-$30
Grey Sunroof Motor cover-$10
Grey Sunroof trim peice-#10
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=566229
Awesome thread! As soon as I save up enough cash, the m50 swap is the first thing I am planning on doing. Just wondering, how much faster were you before/after the manifold? I know the numbers and all, but I was wondering whether you actually ran the same car before/after? Anyway, great thread, should definitely get stickied.
I am hoping to make the Edge Motorwerks (Supporting Vendor) Hot Dyno Night coming up next week, but i highly doubt that due to my car being in the body shop, so i do not know my current HP level.Originally Posted by stirpicult
Dyno affecting Mods are as follows...
ECIS Intake
Silicone Throttle Body Boot
Fan Delete
UUC Pullies
Dinan Big Bore Throttle Body
M50 Manifold Conversion
S52 Cams
JC Cam Specific Shark Injector
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
Custom Dual Borla Exhaust w/ Magnaflow Tips
And 3.23 LSD which should have no affect on HP levels
I only know one member that had a 3.5" hfm and it was a m52 in an e30, and he wasn't even making the power i used to make.Originally Posted by PrestoMB
Besides that i am almost positive that no m52er is running a 3.5" hfm because there is no tuning option for it. I have not dynoed, so right now the highest dyno we've seen come from a m52 or lets say an e36 328, is Torquey's old dyno of 224whp. Since then i doubt it makes that since it is in cali (m3mobbin purchased it)on 91 octane and not 93, and he changed the intake and exhaust i believe and their were probably some minor effects (positive or negative, )their too, but who knows.
what about this?? it is for the 96+ M3 but don't you think it would work fine on the 2.8?? they even have a trade in program on the shark if you bought your original shark from them.Originally Posted by Captain
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html..._ID=TMS-I3TKIT
Eric Paul Eviston - 1 Piece Silicone Hose M50 Manifold Conversion Kit
******M50 Manifold Install Trouble Shooting Guide Here: www.m50manifold.com
'98 M3/4 - ECIS CAI, S50 Manifold, Conforti Software, 16" Spal Puller, UUC Pulleys, Fan Delete, UUC Stage 2 Fly w/M5 Clutch, UUC Blacks w/TMEs, X-Brace, GC RTAB shims, GC RSMs,
M Roadster lever, 245x40x17 all 4 corners, Drilled Zimmermans, Motul RBF600 and Redline Synth fluids. My Dyno HERE
My Website: www.m50manifold.com
My Email: info@m50manifold.com
M50 manifold conversion kit Group Buy:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=544605
Eric Paul Eviston - 1 Piece Silicone Hose M50 Manifold Conversion Kit
******M50 Manifold Install Trouble Shooting Guide Here: www.m50manifold.com
'98 M3/4 - ECIS CAI, S50 Manifold, Conforti Software, 16" Spal Puller, UUC Pulleys, Fan Delete, UUC Stage 2 Fly w/M5 Clutch, UUC Blacks w/TMEs, X-Brace, GC RTAB shims, GC RSMs,
M Roadster lever, 245x40x17 all 4 corners, Drilled Zimmermans, Motul RBF600 and Redline Synth fluids. My Dyno HERE
My Website: www.m50manifold.com
My Email: info@m50manifold.com
essentially that is the exact same kit we would like someone to produce for our cars, but no one has done so yet.Originally Posted by E36M3E
Yes all this would fit, but the software is tuned for a S52 3.2L engine, not our M52 2.8L. AFR's would definetely be off, and you would not be getting optimum performance out of all of your mods with that package and that software.
We just need AA or Turner to make a 3.5" HFM / 24lb injector kit for an M52, and then we would see a naturally aspirated M52 getting very close to supercharged M52 #'s...at least whp wise.
Most tuners haven't done the software because they don't think 328's make enough power to utilize the larger hfm and larger injectors, but when we show them our 328's are making the same / more power, we could still have a chance of having this software developed. :dreaming
Last edited by Captain; 06-06-2006 at 03:48 PM.
Best thread evar.
Bump for vote to sticky!
in one page you have all the info you need.
But i think we may want to re-think the title for a sticky, because this has no pretty much slimmed down to 328 mods since this mod is only good on m3 and 328 and the m3 guys have their own forum...
Also vote title change
M52 one stop shop official Mod thread
well not really to that, but the thread has turned into a "go" mod thread for mostly the 328er's.
Enjoy
Hmmm 224 whp, maybe I need to go get a BBTB and Samco Silicone Intake boot and go for that N/A WHP recordOriginally Posted by Captain
I have talked to Karl @ AA and Josh @ Eurosport and both gave me simialr answers, that went a bit like this.Originally Posted by Captain
"There are not enough modifications that can be done to the M52 engine to require a larger HFM. The 2.8 can't utilize the additioanl size meter even with all common performance upgrades."
The only way our 2.8's will need a larger HFM would be if we stroke it using a new crank, pistons and rods. Zionsville can put that package together.
~Phil
Madeiraviolett Bf.C club member #001
1996 BMW 328is Madeiraviolett/Dove Grey: 5 Spd, Sport, Cold Weather & Premium Sound pkgs.
3.5" ECIS/ITG intake -> Samco ASC Delete Boot -> DINAN TB -> M50 Manifold -> S52 Cams | Bav Auto Red-top ignition coils tuned w/ AA software, Dynomax Cats & Stromung exhaust UUC Pulleys & Clutch stop, FDM=Zionsville radiator, Mishimoto Tank, SAMCO hoses, Fidanza LTW flywheel & M3 clutch, UUC Evo3 SSK, 3.23 LSD, Koni/Eibach Adjustable Damper suspension, PUR RSM's & RTABs, CF Strut brace, UUC Swaybarbarians, Motorsport X-Brace, 17x8 Beyern Mesh wheels Hella CELIS projectors + 5k TRS HID's, Fog delete=Brake cooling duct, LTW wing, ///M Bumper & R. Diffuser
CCA Member #382557
Be patient, all i need to do is dyno, and that will be surpassed.Originally Posted by LuvMy328is
I'll be doing a few more NA mods to set the bar real high for street legal 328's...in my case i am still carb legal as well, then after that i'll go FI.
But i will be hitting up the dyno with my current mods when my car gets out the body shop.
I think the highly modified m52 could make power out of the larger hfm and 24lb injectors...we just need one of us in Florida to get Nick G. or AA to tune it for us.Originally Posted by LuvMy328is
And i would stroke the shit, but not since i'm gonna go FI...it would make tuning nearly impossible.
Question.. I installed my M50 manifold on sunday. and I was wondering what you people used to hook the 3/4" hose into the big hole in the manifold... I think I didn't use the correct thing so thats why I get my CEL's...my codes are this Misfire in Cylinder 1,2,4,5,6...Pump Speed Signal Fault...Calibration Memory Fault...The Fuel Compensation Value For Bank 1 Exceeded The Specified Range.. The Fuel Compensation Value For Bank 2 Exceeded The Specified Range..
Last edited by 96alpine328i; 06-06-2006 at 10:32 PM.
Cars:
<CENTER>1996 BMW 328i
Conforti Shark Injector
Eurosport Evo II Carbon Fiber Conforti Intake
M50 Manifold Conversion
More to Come...
1998 VW Jetta k2 (Rolled by myself)
Euro Sport Intake
Auto Tech Cam
Auto Tech 3" Stanless Steel Exhaust
Auto Tech Chip
Debadge Bonrath Golf Grille
Golf Euro Spec Headlights
1990 VW Corrado G60 ( Killed By A Tahoe)
</CENTER>
does the M50 manifold swap work with 318's????
Heads you live, Tails you die
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