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Thread: Official M50 Manifold Swap Thread

  1. #1151
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    428
    My Cars
    1997 BMW //M3
    Some people view an M50 manifold as a magic pill.
    Sometimes they learn their lesson after blowing a head gasket from running too lean at 6000RPM at WOT, or if they aren't stubborn and listen to the many of us who have well tuned S52 M50 setups, they learn to read spark plugs and plug into the OBDII data stream to see their fuel correction values screaming at them that they're running too lean.
    To get it really right, add in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator like what Ireland Engineering sells, and build in a wideband O2 sensor setup, like the Innovate, which will show your air/fuel mixture along with all the other OBDII data. Then you can increase fuel pressure til you find that window where the fuel correction percentage shows that your mixture is just barely on the rich side of zero.
    Happy tuning! The results will nicely justify the effort.
    "And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?"

  2. #1152
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    20
    My Cars
    1998 Z3 2.8
    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    I figure there had to be a reason the BMW engineers went with the S52 manifold after 95....surely, they asked the question if they should just keep the same manifold they've been using....surely!? Now, for FI folks, I think there is a better reason to make the switch
    From what I've read they did this for tighter emissions compliance.

    As far as not feeling a power loss, I only drove the car for a day, after swapping manifold, before sending the DME out for a tune. Didn't notice a difference, but this is also a fair-weather/HPDE car so maybe my butt-dyno isn't tuned in enough.
    Last edited by 1998z3; 09-12-2018 at 06:47 AM.

  3. #1153
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    20
    My Cars
    1998 Z3 2.8
    Quote Originally Posted by mpathic View Post
    Some people view an M50 manifold as a magic pill.
    Sometimes they learn their lesson after blowing a head gasket from running too lean at 6000RPM at WOT, or if they aren't stubborn and listen to the many of us who have well tuned S52 M50 setups, they learn to read spark plugs and plug into the OBDII data stream to see their fuel correction values screaming at them that they're running too lean.
    To get it really right, add in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator like what Ireland Engineering sells, and build in a wideband O2 sensor setup, like the Innovate, which will show your air/fuel mixture along with all the other OBDII data. Then you can increase fuel pressure til you find that window where the fuel correction percentage shows that your mixture is just barely on the rich side of zero.
    Happy tuning! The results will nicely justify the effort.
    Does a wideband actually work on these cars? The headers have the pre-cats so I'd assume they would skew the A/F ratio readings. Anyhow, I had the DME tuned, so hopefully that corrected any upper end lean issues. I can't see requiring enough additional fuel to warrant a FPR/upgraded pump simply by adding a larger manifold. For forced induction, definitely.
    Last edited by 1998z3; 09-12-2018 at 07:06 AM.

  4. #1154
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    428
    My Cars
    1997 BMW //M3
    You "can't see", yet. Go look harder. Pre-cats? Huh? The cats are downstream under the bottom of the car. O2 bung can be welded in anywhere you want in front of one of the cats.
    "DME tuned" to what? Based on what input? For what MAF sensor? You read the internet too much and your OBDII data too little. When you can top 250RWHP then feel free to claim anything you want. Til then, good idea to listen to what the people who've pushed the limits with their own setups beyond what was supposed to be doable with the M50 manifold in an internally stock, California smog legal engine that people only used off the shelf parts. The stock injectors are the limiting factor. Denso blue 24# injectors like from a nineties Mustang Cobra, at 3.8 - 4.1 bar, will give you the fuel you need to get that much power at <6500RPM. Use the Turner/ Conforti shark injector s/w that made for stage 1 bigger cams. Make your own larger MAF tube at 3.5" inner diameter with the Bosch Porsche turbo MAF sensor and throw away the 3 3/16" inner diameter tube the Bosch Porsche sensor comes with. There's another 8 - 10HP just in the amount of air the larger tube will flow.
    Picture shows 3.5" aluminum pipe, over the Bosch tube that they claim is 3.5" but isn't, and my final tube with sensor mounted and plastic gatorade scoop as an airguide, after switching to ABS that was lighter, easier to grind the turbulence ridges into and spin on a lathe.
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...l5em9ST3pLdnpR

    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...l5em9ST3pLdnpR

    With the other money you spent on your setup already, go for the West Coast Riots big bore 68.5mm throttle body. The M50 manifold on a 3.2 liter begs for this throttle body.
    Last edited by mpathic; 09-13-2018 at 03:01 AM.
    "And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?"

  5. #1155
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    428
    My Cars
    1997 BMW //M3
    "And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?"

  6. #1156
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    20
    My Cars
    1998 Z3 2.8
    Quote Originally Posted by mpathic View Post
    You "can't see", yet. Go look harder. Pre-cats? Huh?
    If you've managed to achieve those numbers, that's fantastic, and good on you. However, I did not "claim" anything. And there are a ton of shops tunes/shark which have base tunes for the M50 manifold. Are they 100% dialed in for your car? No. But they come darn close and I have no strive to obtain such power figures as you were able to achieve. I simply wanted to add a little pep for low cost and have a reliable car for the nice weekends and occasional track use. These cars are not fast and if I wanted something fast I'd have definitely gone another route.

    Also, there are such things as pre-cats (see pic of 1998 Z3 2.8L header with built in pre-cat/upstream cat). Most OBDII cars have pre and post cats, aka, upstream and downstream cats. If you weld the O2 bung after a pre (upstream) cat you'll have inaccurate readings with a wideband. If you place it before the pre (upstream) cat you'll burn up the O2 sensor.

    https://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/tec...mall/pic15.jpg
    Last edited by 1998z3; 09-13-2018 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #1157
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    640
    My Cars
    '94 325i, '93 325is
    Maybe this is a dumb question but if the stock o2 sensors are right there then why would a wideband o2 be burned up in the same location?
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  8. #1158
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    428
    My Cars
    1997 BMW //M3
    You're picture shows a tu motor, talking apples and oranges, whole different creature than M/S52.
    "And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?"

  9. #1159
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    20
    My Cars
    1998 Z3 2.8
    Quote Originally Posted by jc43089 View Post
    Maybe this is a dumb question but if the stock o2 sensors are right there then why would a wideband o2 be burned up in the same location?
    According to the instructions from pretty much all the vendors that make wideband O2, if you place it too close to the header it will get too hot and it won't read accurately, that's why they say to mount it at least a foot down but they recommend a few feet down but also before the downstream cat.

    There is a difference between narrowband and wideband O2 sensors and their operating temperatures.

  10. #1160
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    640
    My Cars
    '94 325i, '93 325is
    Quote Originally Posted by 1998z3 View Post
    According to the instructions from pretty much all the vendors that make wideband O2, if you place it too close to the header it will get too hot and it won't read accurately, that's why they say to mount it at least a foot down but they recommend a few feet down but also before the downstream cat.

    There is a difference between narrowband and wideband O2 sensors and their operating temperatures.
    Thanks for the info, I did not know that.
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  11. #1161
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North East PA
    Posts
    2,718
    My Cars
    1970 2002; 1998 E36
    Just a quick update and FYI...manifold swap kits are still available here.

    Www.m50manifold.com

    Thanks,

    -Eric

  12. #1162
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    NNJ
    Posts
    1,994
    My Cars
    04 330xi, 98 M3/4/5
    Quote Originally Posted by mpathic View Post
    Some people view an M50 manifold as a magic pill.
    Sometimes they learn their lesson after blowing a head gasket from running too lean at 6000RPM at WOT, or if they aren't stubborn and listen to the many of us who have well tuned S52 M50 setups, they learn to read spark plugs and plug into the OBDII data stream to see their fuel correction values screaming at them that they're running too lean.
    To get it really right, add in an adjustable fuel pressure regulator like what Ireland Engineering sells, and build in a wideband O2 sensor setup, like the Innovate, which will show your air/fuel mixture along with all the other OBDII data. Then you can increase fuel pressure til you find that window where the fuel correction percentage shows that your mixture is just barely on the rich side of zero.
    Happy tuning! The results will nicely justify the effort.
    I hadn't logged on to this thread in quite a while since it was recently bumped...

    I don't understand why you need all this additional stuff for just an M50. Injectors aren't anywhere close to duty cycling out. LTFT %s will increase slightly to accommodate the extra air within a very short while. Give the BMW engineers who wrote the DME code some credit.

    Like I said earlier in thread unless you do a bunch of other mods at the same time as the M50 you're kidding yourself if you DON'T feel a loss below 4000. It's just science! If you throw other parts at the car at the same time, sure it can change what you're feeling by simply increasing power everywhere. But if you just put the M50 on, and drive it for like 10 minutes, the car will be back where it was in terms of AFRs and you will be down on power below 4000. My car already had some basic Jimmy C software, CAI, rebuilt injectors, ASC delete, track pipe, and Borla, so no problem getting air in or out. AFRs are spot on via staring at my Innovate gauge all the way to 7000 on the track (and they were spot on from drive-one after the install).

    Still feels softer than the S52 manifold down low.
    [2004 330xi/6] Orient/Natural :: 117-142k :: ZSP :: ZPP :: ZCW
    [1998 M3/4/5] Cosmos/Black :: 113-125k :: TCKline D/A (500/600) :: GC Plates :: RD Sways :: GC Rear Arms :: ZHP Rack :: 3.64 Diffsonline :: PF FCAB :: BW RTAB :: AKG Subframe :: TMS Pulleys :: AA & Borla :: XBrace :: TRM C2s :: BW lines :: DTC60 :: Safety Equipment

    Past:
    [1995 M3] Avus/Dove :: 141-242k :: S52 OBDI :: M50 manifold :: 3.5 HFM :: Turner Chip :: XBrace :: SS Lines :: Turner RTABS :: Vogtland CS :: Bilstein Sport :: Z3 rack
    [1999 M3] Cosmos/Black :: 65-87k :: TCKline S/A (400/500) :: Turner plates :: UUC Front Sway :: PF RTABs :: AA Intake :: Borla :: XBrace :: TRM C2s :: CL RC6E :: Safety Equipment
    [1993 325is] Brilliant/Black :: 135-139k :: Bilstein sports :: Eibach sways and springs :: Dinan camber plates and chip :: Borla :: LSD

    [1983 320i] Safari/Brownish :: 219-242k :: homebrew CAI :: some rust :: multicolor body panels

  13. #1163
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1
    My Cars
    2008 328i
    What other parts should I replace while at it? CCV refresh?

  14. #1164
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    441
    My Cars
    F30, E36 M3
    Perhaps somebody can help me out here... 96 M3. Cat came with an M50 manifold already swapped in. I am in the process of using the BW kit to redo the swap. I am running 8nto trouble trying to find a vacuum hose situation that goes from the rear recessed port of the manifold to the fuel pressure regulator. Each port is a different size . Is there a BMW pn that goes here or do I just use 2 different hoses and an Auto Zone reducer coupling? Thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Clean the ICV and inspect the vacuum lines.

  15. #1165
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Crystal Lake, IL
    Posts
    43
    My Cars
    1997 328is
    I did the manny swap two weeks ago. WOW! I didnt know that she coukd pull hard in 5th. Then at the end if the week i did the CAI, a used Dinan pipe and filter that i found on Amazon. Sounds Awesome, like a fucking jungle tiger. Then yesterday i decide to put 900 miles on her in a day.......
    Well....eather i cracke the intake manidold or the fuel injector o ri gs went bad. I just did the orings a month ago. I noticed it this morning after runing around town, and whatvsouds like a sharp vac leak, high pich whistle. I took some pics of the manifold neer the injectors. In going to remove the fuel rail and check o rings before i go full blown grease monkey again......shit......totaly worth it though.
    Has anyone ever cracked a intake mannie? The last photo is between injectirs 5 and 6. Neather of those are leaking but between the two i see gas. Any feedback woukd be appreciated.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  16. #1166
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Crystal Lake, IL
    Posts
    43
    My Cars
    1997 328is
    Hears a better one. Now i see fuel comming from number 5.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  17. #1167
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Crystal Lake, IL
    Posts
    43
    My Cars
    1997 328is
    And a couple more

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  18. #1168
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Crystal Lake, IL
    Posts
    43
    My Cars
    1997 328is
    I ended up using another manifold. Luckly i picked up two at the scrap yard. I found this on the first manifold. Oops! Lesson learned. Dont buy a manifold that looks like this. After instaling the other one and messing with the fuel rail/ injector fit-up, everything is good. Just did half of the 900 mile run this morning and, knock on wood, everything looks and smells fine, sounds pretty good too.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  19. #1169
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Murray utah
    Posts
    3
    My Cars
    E36 m3
    So I did the m50 swap on my m3 s52 now I have p0306 an p0303 misfire codes has this happens to any one also have a code p1250 for fuel regulator would this be causing the misfire?

  20. #1170
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    8,884
    My Cars
    Turbo 97 E36 M3, 99 M3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick9366 View Post
    So I did the m50 swap on my m3 s52 now I have p0306 an p0303 misfire codes has this happens to any one also have a code p1250 for fuel regulator would this be causing the misfire?
    Did you plug in the vac lines? FPR, EGR, and to your secondary air pump?
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)

    1999 Techno Violet/Dove M3
    Auto/Convertible and staying stock!

  21. #1171
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    59
    My Cars
    e30
    Let me know if anyone needs a lightly used kit with extras.

    M50 manifold swap kit
    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...6&share_type=t


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #1172
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    McKean township Pennsylva
    Posts
    10,542
    My Cars
    1999 M3 , 1999 328is
    I did the M50 manifold swap as well as traction control delete with the Z3 boot. It is an absolutely huge improvement in performance on my 99 M3. It took the better part of 3 weeks for my car to figure out how to idle correctly but eventually the DME tuned itself.
    The real trick to improving power has been playing with the spark timing via Rom Raider. I have been taking logs of the knock retard vs rpm and fuel load. I plot the data then determine where in the base tables I can add or remove spark. I can not stress enough how much this improved the performance. I also plan to do a similar thing with the narrow band O2 sensor outputs and tuning the fuel table. That way the computer doesn't have to adjust as far and in theory the engine should be more responsive. The computer has likely already adapted fuel for the most part.
    Current fleet:
    1999 BMW e36 M3
    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
    1962 Austin Healey Sprite

  23. #1173
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    NNJ
    Posts
    1,994
    My Cars
    04 330xi, 98 M3/4/5
    Quote Originally Posted by pizzaman09 View Post
    I did the M50 manifold swap as well as traction control delete with the Z3 boot. It is an absolutely huge improvement in performance on my 99 M3. It took the better part of 3 weeks for my car to figure out how to idle correctly but eventually the DME tuned itself.
    The real trick to improving power has been playing with the spark timing via Rom Raider. I have been taking logs of the knock retard vs rpm and fuel load. I plot the data then determine where in the base tables I can add or remove spark. I can not stress enough how much this improved the performance. I also plan to do a similar thing with the narrow band O2 sensor outputs and tuning the fuel table. That way the computer doesn't have to adjust as far and in theory the engine should be more responsive. The computer has likely already adapted fuel for the most part.
    Are you kidding me 3 weeks? Mine idled as usual the minute after I started it and the AFRs were back to normal within a 30 minute drive as verified by my wideband. LTFTs do NOT take that long to accommodate shifts in fueling.

    I'd wager a most of your gains were from getting more aggressive with the spark timing. Yet again the M50 swap, by itself, does nothing but lose power below like 4000.
    [2004 330xi/6] Orient/Natural :: 117-142k :: ZSP :: ZPP :: ZCW
    [1998 M3/4/5] Cosmos/Black :: 113-125k :: TCKline D/A (500/600) :: GC Plates :: RD Sways :: GC Rear Arms :: ZHP Rack :: 3.64 Diffsonline :: PF FCAB :: BW RTAB :: AKG Subframe :: TMS Pulleys :: AA & Borla :: XBrace :: TRM C2s :: BW lines :: DTC60 :: Safety Equipment

    Past:
    [1995 M3] Avus/Dove :: 141-242k :: S52 OBDI :: M50 manifold :: 3.5 HFM :: Turner Chip :: XBrace :: SS Lines :: Turner RTABS :: Vogtland CS :: Bilstein Sport :: Z3 rack
    [1999 M3] Cosmos/Black :: 65-87k :: TCKline S/A (400/500) :: Turner plates :: UUC Front Sway :: PF RTABs :: AA Intake :: Borla :: XBrace :: TRM C2s :: CL RC6E :: Safety Equipment
    [1993 325is] Brilliant/Black :: 135-139k :: Bilstein sports :: Eibach sways and springs :: Dinan camber plates and chip :: Borla :: LSD

    [1983 320i] Safari/Brownish :: 219-242k :: homebrew CAI :: some rust :: multicolor body panels

  24. #1174
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bellevue wa
    Posts
    1,030
    My Cars
    1998 bmw m3 sedan
    Still crazy to me the amount of times it’s been said in this thread that M50 manifold without a tune is pointless but yet people still do it and come here to post with their positive results like somehow it’s changed?!?!?!?
    98 M3 sedan

  25. #1175
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    McKean township Pennsylva
    Posts
    10,542
    My Cars
    1999 M3 , 1999 328is
    Quote Originally Posted by NotUrAvgM View Post
    Are you kidding me 3 weeks? Mine idled as usual the minute after I started it and the AFRs were back to normal within a 30 minute drive as verified by my wideband. LTFTs do NOT take that long to accommodate shifts in fueling.

    I'd wager a most of your gains were from getting more aggressive with the spark timing. Yet again the M50 swap, by itself, does nothing but lose power below like 4000.
    I was surprised myself, drove it every day quite hard per the recommendations. It started with a very low idle, would occasionally stall. Then over time the idle started to increase until it attempted to idle around 2000 rpm. That was an unfortunate time as it would make slow speed driving very rough as the ECU would constantly go back and fourth between fuel cut while coasting and an idle speed that was over the desired road speed. Then it started to settle down and went back to the rock steady 650 rpm idle it is supposed to have. Over that three weeks the power improvements were more and more noticeable, it gained a big surge of WOT power at 4000 rpm.

    The very first start after installing the manifold produced a very odd sound, super smooth and quite. It sounded like a low compression 1950s vintage inline 6 engine at idle.

    It could be that some adaptation was screwed up in the ecu. I performed the intake manifold swap right after having the M3 towed home due to a dead alternator. Drove the car until it shut down due to low voltage. The swap was very convenient with the alternator out of the way.

    Further spark tuning has smoothed it out and improved from there. At this point the car feels like a beast compared to the stock S52 manifold. I am extremely satisfied with the improvements.

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