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Thread: Sunroof issue - assistance in diagnosis requested

  1. #1
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    Sunroof issue - assistance in diagnosis requested

    G'day all. I have a sunroof that started misbehaving over the weekend.

    Short story is that it opens normally, but does not close or tilt. I need to close it using the hand crank option.
    Any suggestions or observations would be appreciated.

    Actions performed:

    1. I used the hand crank with the hex key from the toolkit in the boot to close the sunroof. The roof slid smoothly and there was nothing obviously wrong. The tilt function also worked as expected when using the hex key.
    2. I looked in the channels that the roof slides in. Again nothing obviously wrong.
    3. I tested the switch for function using a multi meter. Again there is nothing obviously wrong. For posterity, I include the following wiring configuration and photo.

    Pin 1 Pin 2 Pin 3 Pin 4 Pin 5 Pin 6
    Unused Orange light Tilt Roof rearward Roof forward Earth

    DSC00064s.jpg

    The car is a 1997 Nov build. The sunroof was factory fitted.
    Last edited by geapra; 11-11-2013 at 08:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Can you hear the motor running? Have you checked fuse 5, behind the glovebox?

    What does "orange light" mean?


    Ed in San Jose '97 540i 6 speed aspensilber over aubergine leather. Build date 3/97. Golden Gate Chapter BMW CCA Nr 62319.

  3. #3
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    Thanks edjack. That was useful.

    I have now tested Fuse 5 in the glovebox with a multi-meter. Unfortunately it is intact and still good. It would have been good if this was the issue.

    When the sunfoof is fully retracted into the roof. If I try the retract button, the sunroof motor kicks for a fraction of a second. If I try tilt or forward, there is no movement by the motor. It is like the button has failed for this direction - but testing shows the button as good.

    By orange light - I am referring to the orange backlighting that is present when the headlights are activated to light the switch at night.
    Last edited by geapra; 11-10-2013 at 07:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    Try to initialize the system. From the closed position, push and hold the sunroof button in the tilt position. After a few seconds, the glass will run through its positions. Continue holding the button until it returns to the closed position. See how it works after this.
    Avus Blue 95 M3. Many mods, including Northeast Rust Mod.

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  5. #5
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    Alas AvusRacer - no joy. I was hoping that would be it. Thanks for that excellent tip btw.

    I held the tilt button for 20sec - nothing happened. No sound or movement.
    I also tried the forward button for 20sec. Again nothing.
    I then tried retract - holding the button down for 20sec. It retracted all the way into the roof and stated there. Nothing I do with the button will move it. Back to the hand crank.

    I noticed the sunshade is now 100% in the roof. Is this normal - or was the sunshade handle always visible (gee I have faulty memory...)
    Last edited by geapra; 11-11-2013 at 03:43 AM.

  6. #6
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    When pressing the close button, try tapping the motor with a small hammer. You may have a weak winding, and sometimes a knock or two will get the motor spinning.
    Avus Blue 95 M3. Many mods, including Northeast Rust Mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmershark View Post
    stretch marks are hot i pretend i am an older sailor looking over maps

  7. #7
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    At some time in the past, did you hear a snap when going over a bump? When you manually push on the sunroof in the closed position does it tilt open without resistance or at all?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geapra View Post
    I held the tilt button for 20sec - nothing happened. No sound or movement.
    I also tried the forward button for 20sec. Again nothing.
    I then tried retract - holding the button down for 20sec. It retracted all the way into the roof and stated there. Nothing I do with the button will move it. Back to the hand crank.

    I noticed the sunshade is now 100% in the roof. Is this normal - or was the sunshade handle always visible (gee I have faulty memory...)
    Pressing and holding the button in any position other than tilt will have no effect. Holding the button in tilt resets the positioning. Unfortunately, doing this when the sunroof is out of alignment or stuck can cause faulty re positioning. What you mention about the sunshade IME is also an indication of misalignment.

  8. #8
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    Some good thoughts there AvusRacer & jamesdc4. Again I really appreciate your input.

    I'll give the hammer option a go when I get back home in a few hours and will post the results.

    As for any indications of failure (snap etc). There was nothing that I am conscious of.

    It was working one day, and then the next day, when my 9 year old son opened it, it stopped working properly and will no longer close. The symptom seems the same as if the tilt and forward wires to the switch were broken. There is nothing obviously wrong with the wiring either & no work has been done on the car recently that could explain the symptoms.

    When I hand crank it, the sunroof moves smoothly without excess effort required. The transition between closed and tilt open is similarly smooth and it tilts normally - i.e. there is no points where it appears to grab. The glass is nicely aligned with the hole in the metal roof when closed and it slides straight. Would some pictures of some key components be useful?

    Is there a relay that works with the sunroof system? Where is it located? I am thinking if there is, it may be worth checking.

  9. #9
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    This may sound strange, but if it tilts normally when manually cranked, check your battery state of charge. A weak battery can cause all sorts of strange issues. This was one of the first symptoms I experienced with my 5, and a replacement battery and sunroof reset solved my problems. Don't go out and just buy a new battery, though. Test the battery state of charge first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qsilver7 View Post
    Last edited by jamesdc4; 11-11-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  10. #10
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    If I remember correctly, the sunroof motor is considered the module, same as E46. There should be two larger gauge wires at the sunroof motor connector, those are the "working circuit". Another test you could do is reveres the contacts, and operate. If it closes but does not open, you have a bad motor. It is a simple motor circuit, once you get past the fully auto and anti trap functions.
    Last edited by AvusRacer; 11-11-2013 at 06:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimmershark View Post
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvusRacer View Post
    After a few seconds, the glass will run through its positions. Continue holding the button until it returns to the closed position.
    My sunroof has never done this with the re initialization procedure. It would click and the glass might move slightly, but never has it run through positions. In your experience, is this positively true of E39s?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdc4 View Post
    My sunroof has never done this with the re initialization procedure. It would click and the glass might move slightly, but never has it run through positions. In your experience, is this positively true of E39s?
    I may be confused with newer models. Some raise to tilt, then a little past tilt, then back to close. I haven't done an e39 in quite awhile.
    Avus Blue 95 M3. Many mods, including Northeast Rust Mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmershark View Post
    stretch marks are hot i pretend i am an older sailor looking over maps

  13. #13
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    You guys are brilliant. Thanks. I'll post the results of my testing when I get access to it. Hopefully whatever has failed becomes obvious with these tests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvusRacer View Post
    I may be confused with newer models. Some raise to tilt, then a little past tilt, then back to close. I haven't done an e39 in quite awhile.
    WDS mentions that the pre 3/98 sunroofs need to be manually calibrated, while the post 3/98 ones are done automatically. Perhaps the difference?

  14. #14
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    Not familiar with "manual calibration". Unless you are talking e34 DSHD, or later model panorama roof, most are initialized via switch.
    Last edited by AvusRacer; 11-11-2013 at 09:27 PM.
    Avus Blue 95 M3. Many mods, including Northeast Rust Mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmershark View Post
    stretch marks are hot i pretend i am an older sailor looking over maps

  15. #15
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    Sorry AvusRacer - I was misdirected in my observation regarding a "manual calibration".

    The following is an extract from WDS, and I was getting confused between "Standardisation" which is what we have been referring to as calibration and "Anti Trapping".

    Standardisation

    Set the sunroof in the ”lift” end position for standardisation purposes. On reaching this position, press and hold the switch in ”lift” for at least 15 seconds. Once this time has elapsed, the drive is activated until it blocks and then moves back a little. The position of the position transmitters is stored internally. The sunroof is standardised.

    Anti-trapping protection characteristic curve

    The following applies to series E38 to 9/98 and series E39 to 3/98:
    Sunroof module with diagnosis index 20 (refer to diagnosis program identification)
    The module automatically learns the characteristic curve during sunroof operation. The module recognises positions with mechanical stiffness and adapts the characteristic curve accordingly. Following initialisation, open and close the sunroof at least once by pressing the switch.
    If the anti-trapping protection triggers in certain positions, the fault may be eliminated by passing over the corresponding position with the switch overshot.
    The following applies to Series E39 from 3/98 and Series E53 (X5):
    Sunroof module with diagnosis index 21 (refer to diagnosis program identification)
    The following procedure is necessary in order to learn the characteristic curve:

    • Carry out standardisation procedure (see Standardisation)
    • Once the sunroof has been standardised (switching sound can be heard), briefly release the switch and, within 5 seconds, press and hold again in the ”lift” position.
    • After approx. 15 seconds, the roof is lowered and assumes the ”open” position.
    • After stopping briefly in the opened position the sunroof moves in the direction ”closed” and stops in the end position.
    • The characteristic curve is now learned.

    The switch must be held in the ”lift” position during the entire procedure.
    Caution! The anti-trapping protection is not active during this procedure.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Some testing results:

    Tapping the motor while operating the switch to tilt the sunroof with a small hammer. Unfortunately nothing happened.
    Additionally I used a hex key to try and turn it while hitting the button to tilt the sunroof. Again nothing happened and I could feel no feedback at all from the motor. Out of interest I tried retracting the sunroof with the hex key in place. It span as expected with impressively strong torque.
    I also turned the motor's armature manually using a small screwdriver by about 1/4 of a turn, in case it was somehow stuck. It made no difference when I operated the switch.

    I tested the battery. It gave a reading of 12.36 volts after resting for about 3 hours. So reasonable charge there.

    Here is a question - should I remove the motor and associated connections to do the test that AvusRacer mentioned (reversing the motor wires)? Is it just the bolts circled in red in the first picture, or is there a trap for the unwary? I assume the motor connection is the one circled green (left) in the second picture.

    DSC00071s.jpgDSC00073.JPG
    Last edited by geapra; 11-12-2013 at 02:54 AM.

  16. #16
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    12.36v is between a 50% and 75% state of charge. That is a weak battery. In my experience, these cars have all sorts of electrical gremlins when the battery isn't up to snuff. If you don't already have one, get a smart charger and charge the battery to full charge. Then try sunroof re initialization.
    How old is your battery btw?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvusRacer View Post
    From the closed position, push and hold the sunroof button in the tilt position. After a few seconds, the glass will run through its positions. Continue holding the button until it returns to the closed position. See how it works after this.
    Another thought. Are you reinitializing the sunroof after manually tilting? If you are reinitializing while fully closed, that may be your problem. It has to be reinitializing while tilted open fully.
    Set the sunroof in the ”lift” end position for standardisation purposes. On reaching this position, press and hold the switch in ”lift” for at least 15 seconds. Once this time has elapsed, the drive is activated until it blocks and then moves back a little. The position of the position transmitters is stored internally. The sunroof is standardised.
    Still even if this solves your problem, I suspect the weak battery may have caused the problem to begin with.
    Last edited by jamesdc4; 11-12-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  17. #17
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    Thanks Jamesdc4. Some great input to my problem there & good pickup regarding the tilt position to start the re initialisation process. Unfortunately we have not cracked this one yet : (

    As per your suggestion, I manually located the sunroof in the tilt position using the hex key and hit the tilt button for 30 seconds. Nothing. I then tried forward. Nothing. And reverse - started to move from tilt to close. I then tried forward - it continued to close, progressing to the closed state, then stopped.

    I then turned on the motor (thinking if a poor battery, this may help) and ran the same test. Nothing different was observed to the previous test (i.e. same results).

    As for the battery. Today it read 12.48 volts after being left sitting for a few hours and 13.89 volts with the engine turning (at idle). The battery is a few months over 2 years old, and the car has been driven on short 5-10 min trips all week (maybe explaining the low voltage). Unfortunately I do not have a battery charger at hand. I find I usually get up to 4 years out of batteries where I live (sunny Sydney - Australia), maybe 5 when a car is new.

  18. #18
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    An update. Assistance still requested.

    I used INPA to see if there are any errors that may help with the sunroof issue.
    BINGO – according to the software I have “ I27 PM SHD Defective Relay” under the Central Body Electronic section. I believe SHD refers to the sunroof (WDS contains the same acronym and references it to the sunroof control module) – am I correct there?

    I have attached a screenshot from INPA when looking at the sunroof module info:
    Suroof.jpg
    I'd really appreciate an interpretation of what I am seeing.

    Now where is this relay located???? Is it in the roof as part of the motor is it elsewhere?

    Additionally, I took the car for a longish drive over the weekend. The battery is now reading 12.63 volts. Yet the sunroof will not operate correctly or standardise. I think we can rule out any issue with the battery for the time being.
    Last edited by geapra; 11-18-2013 at 05:44 AM.

  19. #19
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    bump

  20. #20
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    I pulled the sunroof motor and module out of the car this weekend. It is just the 3 bolts holding it there and it comes out easily.

    I then removed the plastic cover to the electronics. I discovered that, what I assume is a relay, has a rattle in it (red circle, 3rd picture) when I shake the circuit board. I also assume that this is where the fault lays.

    I guess I will need to source a new module. : (


    DSC00093s.jpgDSC00096s.jpgDSC00090s.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by geapra; 11-25-2013 at 05:15 AM.

  21. #21
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    Find someone parting one out or you may be able to find one at the junkyard. It should be coded, but I've had good luck just initializing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimmershark View Post
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by geapra View Post
    As per your suggestion, I manually located the sunroof in the tilt position using the hex key and hit the tilt button for 30 seconds. Nothing. I then tried forward. Nothing. And reverse - started to move from tilt to close. I then tried forward - it continued to close, progressing to the closed state, then stopped.

    I then turned on the motor (thinking if a poor battery, this may help) and ran the same test. Nothing different was observed to the previous test (i.e. same results).

    As for the battery. Today it read 12.48 volts after being left sitting for a few hours and 13.89 volts with the engine turning (at idle). The battery is a few months over 2 years old, and the car has been driven on short 5-10 min trips all week (maybe explaining the low voltage). Unfortunately I do not have a battery charger at hand. I find I usually get up to 4 years out of batteries where I live (sunny Sydney - Australia), maybe 5 when a car is new.
    I have had this exact same issue. There didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for the erratic behavior. A new/fully charged battery seemed to be the only remedy. Currently, my sunroof issue is with misalignment from side to side that began with your symptoms (I can tilt but can't retract right now). Although possibly unrelated, a new motor did not fix the problem. I've had the entire cassette out and replaced broken arms twice. I've not had the time to revisit the problem and am wary about sinking more money into repair kits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here's something else to try if you haven't already. I'm embarrassed I didn't think to mention this right off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danzilla View Post
    Sorry for the Delay Getting back with an update the resolution was disconnect the Battery i let it sit disconnected for the entire Football Game reconnected it and did a sunroof after reset Sunroof responds as it should...Thanks All for the assistance
    Last edited by jamesdc4; 11-25-2013 at 08:48 AM.

  23. #23
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    Replacement module and motor purchased (from a 7 series but same part numbers). See how we go.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by geapra View Post
    Replacement module and motor purchased (from a 7 series but same part numbers). See how we go.
    Have you tried disconnecting the battery for a while, reconnecting and re-initializing?

  25. #25
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    Your excellent suggestion of disconnecting the battery for a while was something I did earlier. I left it overnight. Sadly it was not a solution for my issue.
    I really appreciate all the good ideas. It is part of what makes this forum so great.

    I have also tested the relay with a multi meter and a 12v power source. Power flows when the switch is in the retract position. Tilt and forward however, do not activate the relay to allow power to the motor. I guess the rattle in the relay and this test shows the internals of the relay as failed. Shame the relay is not a replacable item.

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