Need your help with a decision, Euro or no?

**TYE** · 10-22-2002, 03:47 AM

Need your help with a decision
Alright guys, I need your help on a decision I am considering. I am thinking of selling my 3.2 OBD1 and dropping in a euro motor. I would mate the euro motor to my current 5 speed.
It comes down to either doing a p&p head, oversized valves, schrick cams, and retuned AA software or doing the euro motor. Does anyone have driving impressions with the euro, or been in a race with one. If I did the euro, I would probably drop cams in and a groupe N ecu or let AA tune it. How much faster would I be with the euro over my 3.2 obd1. Thanks for your help.
For reference, currently my 3.2 obd1 is dynoing at 247 rwhp and 237 rw torque. The engine mods on it are:
AA custom chip
AA euro HFM
AA Intake
Evosport Pullies
97 M3 headers, cats
Momo Corse Exhaust designed for a 325
TC Kline LTW Flywheel

**QuestMCoupe** · 10-22-2002, 06:52 AM

Tye, why have you decided to go euro now? You've got such a beast right now but I'm sure you'd definately have more power with the euro setup that you're talking about doing. One thing that may cause a problem is having to get parts for the euro motor in case something happens...thats the only downside I can see.

**RicN** · 10-22-2002, 08:14 AM

pierre collett on roadfly.org aka UMP(useless message poster) can help you with that. he has a euro motor in his racing car....I think alan taur also has a euro conversion on his M3..not sure.

**frayed** · 10-22-2002, 08:52 AM

IIRC, the 3.0L euro motor is not a terribly difficult retrofit in your chassis, but the 3.2L is difficult. I believe alan may have more on that. Due to mating of his 95 OBD I electroncs with the more advanced electronics of the 3.2L, he spent mucho dinero and had lots of down time. Not for the faint of heart.

While the Euro power delivery is superior than the US motor, cams, a set of better headers and resonator, should get you euro power levels for an order of magnitude less cash and hassle.

I'd say no.

**eclou** · 10-22-2002, 09:43 AM

Jeff is right. Add cams, headers and track pipe and you will not only match the euro HP #'s (Alan Taur got 268(?)rwhp with a lightly modded euro) but exceed it in torque. 270+ rwhp and monstrous torque are typical of Chuck Stickley's OBD I 3.2 jobs. He routinely "drags" vs euro motored club race cars and pulls on every single one of them, no matter how highly modded they are (grouppe N this, DTA/Stack controller that, etc).

The big expense of the euro motor (I've always wanted one too!) is the accessories and install - radiator, oil cooler, oil pan, exhaust, EWS II anti-theft grafting, various hoses and brackets. Alan Taur estimated $20k for the whole job even with a cheap price on the motor. Stickley will send you a crate 270 rwhp motor for about $8k plus core, and you can drop it in in less than 1 day. All you need from him is software, cams, and headers.

Eugene

**LuxoM3** · 10-22-2002, 11:58 AM

Pierre Colliet (sp?) on the Roadfly board... time and time again says...

"I wish I had built up a US Spec motor vs. doing a Euro Conversion...."

Pierre mentioned the main issues isn't power...it's maintenance. The Euro motor needs a valve adjustment once a year...and it's not a simple trip to your local dealer...say BMW speed/race shop.

Also he mentions electrical gremlins due to the swap.

....

**like2short** · 10-22-2002, 12:37 PM

Not worth the trouble....doing the Euro Motor...

3.2 US w/cams almost as good in power.

If you can lighthen your car by 200lbs...that would be helpful

**eclou** · 10-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Tye,

I am shooting for 260 rwhp from OBD II sans NO2. Don't know if I'll ever get there but I've got nothing else to do. I am working on adapting a new engine management system to our cars. The E36M3's run off of an MAF based system which has inherent limitations. One of the more current engine management systems is based on "MAP". I'm trying to convince a very gifted Porsche enthusiast/tuner to apply his noggin to our realm. Enough with the Conforti band-aids.

Eugene

**Jim O.** · 10-22-2002, 03:18 PM

I'm currently around 265 rwhp (Dynojet) with my 3.2L US M3. Mods are:
- ltw flywheel
- 3.0 intake manifold
- ASC removed
- modified Conforti intake
- SS big tube headers/center section/cat back
- Electromotive Tec3

Cams, injectors, pullies, diff ratio, tranny are still stock. Rest of motor is still stock, with 125K miles on it. Fan is still on the car.

Jim

**badmonkey** · 10-22-2002, 03:24 PM

Add some bigger cams and you could be looking at 280+whp Jim! The TEC-3 flat out works.

I looked into the euro-motor conversion too. The cons outweigh the pros. As mentioned before, there is the headache of install compatabilty, added maintenance, and what happens when you need an engine part? Can't drop by the dealer to pick up euro 3.2 parts. F that business. The US motor has been developed well enough to overlook.

Or you could just add boost

-John

**NiTE** · 10-22-2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by badmonkey
Add some bigger cams and you could be looking at 280+whp Jim! The TEC-3 flat out works.

I looked into the euro-motor conversion too. The cons outweigh the pros. As mentioned before, there is the headache of install compatabilty, added maintenance, and what happens when you need an engine part? Can't drop by the dealer to pick up euro 3.2 parts. F that business. The US motor has been developed well enough to overlook.

Or you could just add boost

-John

I want 280rwhp... too bad I dont have the $$ right now

**Jim O.** · 10-22-2002, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by badmonkey
Add some bigger cams and you could be looking at 280+whp Jim!

Possibly, but probably not. When I do the cams, I'm going to be looking for ones that will give me more low-end and midrange torque. Which will probably sacrifice some of the top end horsepower.

Of course, when I do the cams, I might as well go to solid lifters and stiffer valve springs and retainers, so I can bump the redline up to 7500 or 8000. Which may actually get me back the big hp numbers....

Jim

**edboc** · 10-22-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Jim O.
I'm currently around 265 rwhp (Dynojet) with my 3.2L US M3. Mods are:
- ltw flywheel
- 3.0 intake manifold
- ASC removed
- modified Conforti intake
- SS big tube headers/center section/cat back
- Electromotive Tec3

Cams, injectors, pullies, diff ratio, tranny are still stock. Rest of motor is still stock, with 125K miles on it. Fan is still on the car.

Jim

How did you remove ASC? Also, what is Electromotive Tec3?

**eclou** · 10-22-2002, 04:20 PM

Jim, you are my new hero!

Eugene

**Jim O.** · 10-22-2002, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by edboc
How did you remove ASC? Also, what is Electromotive Tec3?

Removed the ASC throttle body, replaced the rubber boot with one off the M Roadster. Removed the ASC bulb behind the instrument cluster.

Electromotive Tec3 is a stand-alone engine management system. Takes the place of the OBD-II ECU. Takes care of timing, spark, fuel management, etc. - all the engine control functions.

Jim

**edboc** · 10-22-2002, 04:53 PM

Where can I get an Electromotive Tec3, and how much does it cost?

**Brekyrself** · 10-22-2002, 04:58 PM

What about dropping a s38 b38 eurospec into a e36 chassis? 3.8l with 340hp and 295lbs of torque stock.

**Kos-motate139** · 10-22-2002, 04:59 PM

Tye -- the other downside I've heard about the euro 3.2 is finding someone in the USA that's handy at tuning the OBD1 double VANOS. Apparently not quite as automatic as, say like the M54. I'd vote for the big power mods to the existing engine too.

Jim -- I assume the Tec3 lets you download different profiles based on atmospheric conditions, crappy fuel, etc -- that's the biggest pain with my car right now, finding a few gallons of 100 to throw in with each and every tank. Assuming other bottlenecks like the headers and intakes opened up, is that percentage/hp gain typical of Tec3 setups? A Tec3 setup would probably be less than a full engine swap, still be SP legal, and not add weight...

**eclou** · 10-22-2002, 05:18 PM

Brekyrself,

the S38 is a nice unit, but it is HEAVY! I have heard that the Nikasil/Alusil 4.4L V8's weigh less.

Eugene

**badmonkey** · 10-22-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by edboc
Where can I get an Electromotive Tec3, and how much does it cost?

Check it out at Electromotive

**TYE** · 10-22-2002, 06:51 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm leaning on sending a spare head I have to McHenry or Stickley (which do you recommend) for the head job ,p&p, oversized valves, cams, and I'll let my friends at AA send me the new chip. Hopefully with that head and headers, track pipe, and exhaust I can put out 270+ at the rear wheels.
Also, is going with solid lifters not a good idea on a car that is a daily driver?

**whakiewes** · 10-22-2002, 07:08 PM

I would recommend Pete. Hes a good guy, and does fabulous work. Its up to you, i believe Chuck is cheaper though. I am not sure anymore, everything changes all the time.

Wes

**eclou** · 10-22-2002, 07:14 PM

Tye, I have good news for you. Chuckie doesn't even recommend doing a P&P job on our heads. Too much and charge velocity will diminish, reducing torque.

Eugene

**alexd** · 10-22-2002, 08:23 PM

Tye, did you ever get a hold of Ike????

**Sacramento M3** · 10-22-2002, 11:46 PM

forgive my ignorance in this area, as I do read about it quite often, but not always sure I grasp all the concepts. I wouldn't think it very hard [would think money is more the problem] to get to 270+ rwhp. I mean there seems to be a wealth of options for NA tuning out there especially with OBD I you have

Euro HFM setup + Intake, the new headers out from Evosport (supposed to give quite a nice power gain...from what I understand), a few different options for cams, larger injectors (if needed), free'er flowing exhaust, custom chip, port and polish of the head, redo the internals (perhaps raise the compression a tad bit???), larger throttle body (have heard this argued that it doesn't gain much....would like to see dyno numbers), pullies, I think that covers most of the major areas of NA tuning (perhaps a couple things I may have forgotten).

Then after that it's all about weight reduction. I've heard as a general rule of thumb 10lbs of loss is the equivalent of 1hp of gain??? If that's true, lose 150 lbs and you've got roughly another 15hp gain......give or take of course.

Again excuse my novice ignorance on the subject, but that's my $.02

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