Cheap Turbo setup

[///Manuel]

I think the words cheap and turbo dont get along that well but I was wondering if it would be possible to buy a turbo setup (used or not) and buy extra components for tuning. Something like around $5k would suit me
Looks like AA kit is just awesome but I don't have $10k to spend on it!
I don't want to go the S/C route because of the altitude, heat soak and less torque than a turbo. Also, I really like the Turbo rush and feel.

[fast4d]

you can definitely have a turbo kit custom built for $5k. The problem is getting the factory computer to make it work. From what I've learned on this forum you only have 2 or 3 companies with the "know how"

[J10B]

if you keep the boost under 6 psi you should be ok.

[Spencer]

Manuel,

I dont know if you ever saw Donny's car but that was a custom setup and he put down 500 at the wheels when he blew the stock head gasket.

From what he told me, putting a kit together for that amount shouldn't be a problem. The problem is, tuning especially on OBD2.

Anise now has Donney's turbo setup, so if you want to, I'm sure you could take a look at it and get an idea of what needs to be bought.

[Mitch P.]

so, you want to try and build a cheap kit and then have some sort of guarantee that it will work properly? Personally, I think you are messing with getting burned. Good luck though, but from what I've found in the tuning world, cheap doesn't go well with BMW's and the FI world.

[///Manuel]

Well, it looks like forced induction and reliability don't mix up very well when it comes to tracking your car.... so I don't know anymore. I do know somebody who drives regularly on the track and got a custom turbo as well (prob running 6psi). His car is a 95 tho so tuning is different. I'll ask him.
Spencer, yeah that's kinda what I'm talking about. I'd like to be conservative on the boost tho if I every go the FI route.

[Beau]

Here's a snippet of a post I made on DTMPower shortly after purchasing my car last year.

**************************************************

Just for fun, let's see what I can put together with the AA budget ($10,900), allowing enough margin for a decent profit. It'll be lavish without going totally overboard -

1) First of all, the most important ingredient these systems lack - proper engine management. A good speed density aftermarket ECU, TEC-II is a bargain feature-wise, not as advanced as some newer 32 bit ECUs, but still up to the task of safely taking a motor to 3x the hp. With new fuel injectors, custom fabricated ignition trigger wheel, mount, bigger fuel pump, knock sensor, 3 bar MAP sensor. All in all ~$3000-3500.

2) Turbo... a big Garrett turbo, not a fan of the Mitsubishis, about $1100-1300.

3) Equal length mild steel tubular manifold - $1000.

4) Giant air/air intercooler, looks like it may be a problem getting sufficient airflow, but better than water/air if it can be done, esp. if you're tracking your car. $800

5) JE pistons + head studs, ~$1000 (I'll take a leap and assume you won't be gouged here - you can get a custom run of pistons for the Miata for $500, studs like $150). Drop CR to 8.5:1.

6) Piping + downpipe + hardware + BOV + air filter + wastegate.... weld yourself for about $1500, I'm talking good hardware here.

At this point we have $9100 max - hey $1800 ain't shabby!

But we still need to throw in

7) High flow exhaust - $600 (custom fabricated at a muffler shop)

On the high end of my estimate - $9700.


Providing the engine and driveline are up to it, you should be setup for a safe 600 hp on street gas, maybe more. A 10 second car. You can dyno tune it yourself, make it as mild or wild as you want it to be. Only problem is no CARB so it would have to be removed during smogging in states that required it. Major PITA. But otherwise... - Beau

[stimpee]

Originally posted by ///Manuel
Well, it looks like forced induction and reliability don't mix up very well when it comes to tracking your car.... so I don't know anymore. I do know somebody who drives regularly on the track and got a custom turbo as well (prob running 6psi). His car is a 95 tho so tuning is different. I'll ask him.
Spencer, yeah that's kinda what I'm talking about. I'd like to be conservative on the boost tho if I every go the FI route.

There should be no issues in tracking a car with forced induction if it is ENGINEERED properly. RACING might be a different story, but tracking as in Driver's schools should not be an issue, or should not present something that can't be dealt with if the kit has some "flexibility" built in.

As for Beau's calculations, don't forget all of the "engineering" that it will take to actually do it properly and make it all work well. Figure 100's of hours at $100 an hour or so. If you don't "Engineer" the kit and just put together a bunch of "parts", I will take the liberty to propose that you will end up with something that is just a bunch of parts assembled on an engine, and not an integrated solution.

Just my self serving opinion as a geek engineer...



Steve

[Beau]

Man, I would _love_ to pay myself $100/hr! My company only does a bit better than a third of that. Greedy bastards.

I think when you're stuck fabbing manifolds and piping the idea that some engineering going on is implicit. But it ain't rocket science.

I know you have your own experience with your upcoming kits, Steve. And I agree an all-encompassing kit can be very difficult, having to account for various build tolerances can make it a real chore. But I've seen many DIY jobs on many other cars, most very successful and well thought-out. Of course you need to educate yourself. And it helps to be patient, careful, and especially anal. And you must have another vehicle because a few months of rental fees will be exhorbitant. But it can be a fun and rewarding experience. - Beau

[stimpee]

I agree Beau, and my main point is that MOST people do not have all the abilities required to do this, and do it well.

I certainly don't have all the abilities myself, however since I am developing a kit, I have the flexibility to go to the people that DO have the abilities in the areas I need help in, and even in some cases PAY them for their assistance/knowledge. Most "home" kit builders can not do that...

Just don't underestimate what it takes. I still get a bit "dizzy" when I look at how much time, effort, and money I have spent, and I don't even have the damned thing running yet!!!

However, I am pretty darned close!!!!!

[Mitch P.]

Regarding tracking a FI'd engine, I have put many miles on mine. I usually participate in at least 6-10 track events per year for the past 3yrs. If your kit is tuned properly, I also see no issues while at the track

[///Manuel]

Excellent, excellent info. Looks like I'll be looking into it a little further then.

[slvr98 M]

I love that info that was given. Goes to show that AA isnt that bad after all when it comes to the prices alot of people tend to complain about. Imagine all the extra stuff to do the job correctly.

Well my M3 is at AA right now getting the T-61 setup like Omar's Mcoupe. Time to join the 600+ HP club.

[Spencer]

Originally posted by slvr98 M
I love that info that was given. Goes to show that AA isnt that bad after all when it comes to the prices alot of people tend to complain about. Imagine all the extra stuff to do the job correctly.

Well my M3 is at AA right now getting the T-61 setup like Omar's Mcoupe. Time to join the 600+ HP club.

The prices given are for a much higher level system than just a basic AA setup.

AA doesn't include a Tec-II system.

AA doesn't use a equal length exhaust manifold.

AA doesn't include JE Pistons or Head Studs.

If you went to AA to have all this stuff retrofited on one of their kits, I'm sure they would charge an arm and a leg. Beau just put together all this stuff for LESS THAN a basic AA setup.

So how again does this show that AA isnt overpriced? Seems to show the exact opposite.

[Beau]

Steve,

Sure, most people shouldn't be doing this but people who consider this aren't most people. I don't mean to trivialize the process - I always like to see people tackle what they can, but doing something like this is not a sole reason to take welding classes, buying a press, etc - all which cost extra money above the creator's time.

A supercharger is prob more of a pain from a fab standpoint for all the bracketry. But otherwise there are good speedshops that will weld pipes for you for a few hundred a run if you provide the materials and specs. A tubular manifold is not something I would suggest someone tackle themself (I should have tried being clearer on that), and my price reflects what you might expect to have a shop create a custom piece. By engineering I meant more design and measure rather than fabricate.

One thing about fit/finish and that kinda stuff vs a commercial kit - even if it's not quite up to mass consumed snuff that's not what breaks engines. Ignorance, mostly in the realm of engine management, does. And even the top dogs aren't perfect in this regard. As esteemed a shop as AA is, they suggest lowering compression by using a headgasket? Good track record and all, that still raises my right eyebrow a bit.

My attitude is someone who takes the care to go through this ordeal will be more responsible with how they implement it... especially vs. someone who takes a stock kit and mods it down the road. Just my opinion. - Beau

[William Regal]

Originally posted by Spencer


The prices given are for a much higher level system than just a basic AA setup.

AA doesn't include a Tec-II system.

AA doesn't use a equal length exhaust manifold.

AA doesn't include JE Pistons or Head Studs.

If you went to AA to have all this stuff retrofited on one of their kits, I'm sure they would charge an arm and a leg. Beau just put together all this stuff for LESS THAN a basic AA setup.

So how again does this show that AA isnt overpriced? Seems to show the exact opposite.

All Beau's post shows is the cost of parts. It doesn't cover the expenses incurred to design a lot of those custom parts and test them. It doesn't cover the hours upon hours of dyno and real world testing either. And most importantly, it doesn't cover what would be a worthwhile profit. Do expect these companies to waste their time if they only turn a tiny little profit? You guys need to look at the big picture here and remember that most tuners are not offering a charity service. The amount of work and expense that goes into developing kits like these is very high, especially when dealing with cars that were not built with forced induction in mind. You wouldn't even begin to recover all your costs for quite a while with for such a low profit margin. By all means, if you think you can build a better kit while keeping it inexpensive, do so. No other tuner has been able to do so except AA, and you guys complain about the price. So....

[Mitch P.]

that's why I'm suprised at how many people bag on Dinan stuff also. Do you know how much you have to pay an engineer to reverse interpret the code of the stock BMW ECU's? I'm guessing it's quite a bit. It isn't as if someone can just piece together parts and have everything come out okay by just using a RRFPR. Although it can be done, it's not as good as a good ECU flash IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, AA's prices and Dinan prices are right in line with what they are offering. Plus the fact that they have taken all the homework/guesswork out of the mix. If you can reverse engineer things yourself (like simple CAI's) then more power to you Never hurts to try though, I love doing most of the work on my own car and would do more if I had the tools. But, that's another story...

[Spencer]

Originally posted by William Regal



All Beau's post shows is the cost of parts. It doesn't cover the expenses incurred to design a lot of those custom parts and test them. It doesn't cover the hours upon hours of dyno and real world testing either. And most importantly, it doesn't cover what would be a worthwhile profit. Do expect these companies to waste their time if they only turn a tiny little profit? You guys need to look at the big picture here and remember that most tuners are not offering a charity service. The amount of work and expense that goes into developing kits like these is very high, especially when dealing with cars that were not built with forced induction in mind. You wouldn't even begin to recover all your costs for quite a while with for such a low profit margin. By all means, if you think you can build a better kit while keeping it inexpensive, do so. No other tuner has been able to do so except AA, and you guys complain about the price. So....

My point is the hardware would be superior. AA's hardware is nothing to brag about. Sure its nice, but nothing that any other turbo kits out there dont have.

IMO, a built engine with JE Pistons, Tec II, etc is far better than running a head spacer, and reprogramming the factory ECU.

IMO, AA has a software advantage in the market. No one else seems to be able to reprogram the stock ECU so well and I give them respect for that.

It would be no challenge to reproduce the hardware AA has out that is equal or superior quality. The difference is in their software.

The question is, how effective would tuning the TEC II be?

And also, I dont know how you can compare the price list above with AA's. The price list above is RETAIL. Obviously, if you are a company trying to sell a kit, you wont be paying prices so high. I think this thread was meant to say that you could piece together your own kit for less than AA's. Not for resale value.

[BMWguy206]

Can you have your AC system working with a TECII or III?

[stimpee]

Originally posted by Spencer


IMO, a built engine with JE Pistons, Tec II, etc is far better than running a head spacer, and reprogramming the factory ECU.

I will disagree strongly with one point here, and that is that there are few, if any, cases where a TecII or any other sub 10k standalone can even come close to the functionality or flexibility of the stock DME in ANY BMW. Any time you put a standalone on one of these cars, you are taking a HUGE step down unless the car is a "race only" proposition.

The ONLY reason to use a standalone is for those who do not know how, or have the capability to alter the software in the stock DME. The more you learn about the stock DME in the BMW, the more you will understand how incredibly robust it is...

Steve

[BKM]

HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE MECHTECH TURBO,IM LOOKING INTO THAT OPTION....I DONT HAVE THE BUCKS FOR THE AA SYSTEM IM TRYING TO GET SOME FEED BACK FROM SOME MECHTECH CUSTOMERS, I KNOW THEY KNOW USE A NEW TURBO T3/T4.

[BMWguy206]

Can you please not type in CAPS!

[badmonkey]

Originally posted by Jon Caldito
Can you have your AC system working with a TECII or III?

Yes.

Originally posted by stimpee
I will disagree strongly with one point here, and that is that there are few, if any, cases where a TecII or any other sub 10k standalone can even come close to the functionality or flexibility of the stock DME in ANY BMW. Any time you put a standalone on one of these cars, you are taking a HUGE step down unless the car is a "race only" proposition.

The ONLY reason to use a standalone is for those who do not know how, or have the capability to alter the software in the stock DME. The more you learn about the stock DME in the BMW, the more you will understand how incredibly robust it is...

Steve

This is exactly the issue, tuning the stock DME may be able to produce the same results, but the lack of availability of tuning software for OEM DME dictates some people will look elsewhere for engine management. It is not a huge step down, just another path.


I believe the TECII has been discontinued by Electromotive in favor of the newer TEC-3, with the improved Wintec software. I know of a couple TEC-3 e36 M3's, one forced induction and one atmo, both are making impressive gains over their DME tuned counterparts. Hopefully they will chime in.


///badmonkey

[siastuning]

Using the Tec III you can contol the Vanos and the AC system. I am also using the factory BMW coil packs on a 97 M3 with Dinan SC. Only making 360ish at the wheels for now. I will post more info on my website soon.

I must go install the 3.73 with Quaife in that car know. I am way to busy.. :

Vic

[///MCubed]

Originally posted by ///Manuel
I think the words cheap and turbo dont get along that well but I was wondering if it would be possible to buy a turbo setup (used or not) and buy extra components for tuning. Something like around $5k would suit me
Looks like AA kit is just awesome but I don't have $10k to spend on it!
I don't want to go the S/C route because of the altitude, heat soak and less torque than a turbo. Also, I really like the Turbo rush and feel.

Buy/Sell/Trade:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=51444