Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

**mcornwell** · 11-05-2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by mason@tirerack
So...just so I understand...will this escalate into a full blown 'cannot get into 5th gear' problem, or will it just be annoying?

I never had a problem getting into 5th gear, if anything, it was easier to get into 5th b/c of the shifter springing right below it, but according to others on this board, over time they did develop a problem.

One thing for sure is the problem will not go away, and from reading the posts, here, it will most likely gradually get worse over time.

**nydog** · 11-05-2002, 06:07 PM

email to europeancar sent off. when i get responses i'll post 'em

**mason@tirerack** · 11-05-2002, 07:33 PM

I was curious because I simply called my BMW dealer and left a message telling them what my car was doing and they ordered me a remanufactured tranny WITHOUT even seeing my car or talkng to me on the phone, all under warranty. Just curious since I was kind of wanting to keep my original tranny in there for originality purposes. But if it is gonna flare up I'll take the new one.

**mcornwell** · 11-05-2002, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by mason@tirerack
I was kind of wanting to keep my original tranny in there for originality purposes...

Are you serious?

**slvrm3** · 11-05-2002, 08:39 PM

my car is at the dealer, will post what they find. all i heard from them after day 1 is that they need to pull it to find the problem

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 08:44 PM

>> guess my concern is that the dealer is offering a remanufactured tranny but I don't want to tear out my original one if their is no real danger. What do you think?<<

A remanned tranny is the fix youre looking for. This is not like winning second prize at the raffle...This is all that is available by way of replacement. They reuse the housing, but you get new innards...That is fine. If I werent under warranty, I dont know that Id pay to get it fixed either. But what concerns me is what happens when you try and sell it. All a buyer needs to hear is there's a HINT of a tranny problem and I dont think youd be able to give it away! Would you buy a car where the test drive showed you a tranny issue? I sure wouldnt. I suspect that on a trade in, the dealer doesnt care, cause he's low balling you enough anyway to easily afford to replace it. But if you plan on getting the cars' true worth out of it, good luck with a problematic tranny. Besides, Mason, youre still under warranty, so you absolutely should go for it...Do not let the fact that its a remanned unit interfere with your decision. Besides, they told me that to replace a tranny, there's no such thing as a New Transmission. I dont know that I believe that, but from the dealers' perspective, its probably all theyve ever dealt with.

>>I was curious because I simply called my BMW dealer and left a message telling them what my car was doing and they ordered me a remanufactured tranny WITHOUT even seeing my car or talkng to me on the phone, all under warranty. Just curious since I was kind of wanting to keep my original tranny in there for originality purposes. But if it is gonna flare up I'll take the new one<<

Mason, not to beat a dead horse, but I ask you to please think this through. The fact that the dealer doesnt even need to See your car tells me hes more than a little familiar with the issue, as we all are by now, unfortunately. What hes giving you is a used housing with new ZF transmission internals. What could be better than that. In the world of transmission replacement, this is tantamount to a new transmission. Your statement about wanting to keep it original is like saying I bent my valves because of a missed shift and overreved the engine, but I dont want to fix it because they want to give me remanned parts! This just plain defies logic. Theyre not giving you something that is less good than what you have; theyre giving you something thats not only a thousand percent better, but somethign which should last you the life of your car. Cmon, Mason, think again!

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 10:34 PM

Ive just written Europancar also. If anybody wants to use my letter as a template to this or other publications, just indicate so here, and I'll gladly include it in my next post. I didnt want to be so presumptious as to include it unless somebody indicates that they want me to. Does anybody think that if BMW gets ahold of our names who have written to the media that they will retaliate somehow? Im trusting not, which is why I sent it.

**Hellrot Sachin** · 11-05-2002, 10:47 PM

Damn, this thread has gotten some serious attention.. Well, all of this has made me run looking for extended warranties since Natasha will be out in around 4k miles. I'm looking at Warranty Gold (Diamond Plan) w/ the $0 deductable. I've talked to them and gotten 5 years or 100k total miles for $2230 w/ a $0 deductable. I can take my car to any ASE certified mechanic to get worked on and they will provide a loaner car @ $30/day. Virtually everything on the car is covered.. Does anyone have any experience with this? With respect to my tranny, I don't have a production date to give you guys but I think it's late 1998 since it's a 99 model. I'm trying to find time to take it in to the dealer to get looked at as we speak.

HRS

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 11:20 PM

Hellrot,

>>Damn, this thread has gotten some serious attention.. Well, all of this has made me run looking for extended warranties since Natasha will be out in around 4k miles. I'm looking at Warranty Gold (Diamond Plan) w/ the $0 deductable<<

Is your car pretty much stock? Ive been looking to, and have narrowed it down to either WG Diamond, or another one backed by Heritage, which i hear very good things about. But, the last thing I want to do is to buy a plan, have an adjuster come out, see the upgrades, and basically nullify my entire warranty. This after spending over 2 grand on it. No thankyou! In addition, if I were you, call a few shops you use or plan to use who would be having to work with these people. Ive gotten nothing but negative comments from every shop Ive talked to. They just hate dealing with them. Let me know if you find anything different after talking to a few.

**Hellrot Sachin** · 11-05-2002, 11:41 PM

Paul - my car is sorta stock.. Engine-wise, just software, CAI, and exhaust.. maybe pullies in the future. I talked to them about aftermarket parts and they said they wouldn't honor the warranty if the aftermarket part (ie: supercharger) caused direct failure of a component. Also, they don't send someone to the shop for a claim to be honored. If the mechanic will fix it and send you a bill, they'll pay just the same. WG says that they don't have problems with shops honoring their plan (either specialty shops or dealerships) as long as they're ASE certified and follow the Chilton's manual for labor time and such. I haven't contacted any shops to see what they feel, but WG says they pay the shops immediately w/ a credit card so there isn't a reimbursement delay or anything. It all sounds nice, but I don't know.

HRS

**joeyc** · 11-05-2002, 11:55 PM

Paul - I would be interested in seeing the letter that you wrote.

thanks
Joe

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 11:55 PM

>>I talked to them about aftermarket parts and they said they wouldn't honor the warranty if the aftermarket part (ie: supercharger) caused direct failure of a component. Also, they don't send someone to the shop for a claim to be honored. If the mechanic will fix it and send you a bill, they'll pay just the same. WG says that they don't have problems with shops honoring their plan (either specialty shops or dealerships) as long as they're ASE certified and follow the Chilton's manual for labor time and such. I haven't contacted any shops to see what they feel, but WG says they pay the shops immediately w/ a credit card so there isn't a reimbursement delay or anything. It all sounds nice, but I don't know.<<

Dont take WGs word for it. Theyre trying to sell you. Speak to your shops directly. If youre like me, youre going to get a very different story. wnen you want to buy something, you dont listen to the seller; you check people that have to deal with them if youre interested in answers youre going to have to deal with after youve spent your money. As for upgrades, naturally they wont fix it if a non warranty part broke it. The problem is that they will use whatever non standard part you have as the grounds on which to deny the claim. Remember that their goal is to pay out as little as possible. They dont make money by paying your claim. And, as for adjustors coming out, I can assure you that if you were putting in for the transmission issue we all have with 52000 miles on the car, anything which costs over a thousand dollars is usually going to cause an administrator to put the claim on hold until an adjuster can come out and examine. At that point the shop has the car apart, and he now has to put the car and its disassembled parts aside awaiting the adjuster to show up. This gums up their flow of work and their floor space...Is it any wonder they hate dealing with them? And please, dont ask a salesman for hte company, 'Sir, is it true that your adjustors have to come out on all repairs over a grand...' etc. If theyre honest with you, they WILL tell you that if anything sounds 'unusual' or if a system has broken before its been their experience that the system breaks, as in our transmissions as a perfect example, its Adjustor city just as quick as you can say Hellrot.

**RenaissanceMan** · 11-05-2002, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by paul e
[B<snip> ...All a buyer needs to hear is there's a HINT of a tranny problem and I dont think youd be able to give it away! Would you buy a car where the test drive showed you a tranny issue? I sure wouldnt...B]

what sucks it that my tranny didn't exhibit this problem when i test drove the car... i even had it on the highway. i guess the temps weren't low enough...

Originally posted by mason
[B >>I was curious because I simply called my BMW dealer and left a message telling them what my car was doing and they ordered me a remanufactured tranny WITHOUT even seeing my car or talkng to me on the phone, all under warranty. Just curious since I was kind of wanting to keep my original tranny in there for originality purposes. But if it is gonna flare up I'll take the new one<<B]

mason, you are being given a gift here, (the gift of no hassle from the dealer!!!) and i suggest you be wise and take advantage of it. this isn't something you want to have to pay for down the road, like many of us are going to have to do. in my opinion, this will help resale value, not hinder it. listen to paul!!!

:

**paul e** · 11-06-2002, 12:00 AM

Ok...Here's the letter. use it as a template, or cut and paste parts of it as you wish. Maybe if enough magazines start including the letters, and maybe write a tech note or two, it'll get some action from BMW NA like it did with Ford:

Dear European Car,

As a premier publication addressing the European car community, I feel obliged to draw your attention to a situation which has occurred recently, where a major defective part seems to have affected a great many of us.

The part in question is the ZF Transmission which all USA M3s have. It appears that the '98 and '99 model years are affected, and the problem is serious, and seems to effect almost all owners with over 40K miles on the clock. If we're lucky and find the problem before the 50K mile warranty has expired, more often than not, the dealer is agreeing to replace the transmission under warranty. For those who's warranties have expired, they
are basically out of luck, unless they can convince BMW NA that the problem is so widespread, and is effecting a part that essentially is supposed to last the life of the car, so that BMW feels compelled to offer the individual owner some type of compensation.

The problem is that, when the car is cold, as in first thing in the morning after having sat in the garage overnight, if the driver shifts into Fifth gear a couple of times, the stick instead of returning to its centered neutral position, will just come to rest underneath fifth gear, because the fifth gear gate is essentially missing. The dangerous problem we encountered is that this gate is what guides us into third gear. Its resistance is whats used to differentiate third from fifth. With third gear so difficult to find, its too easy to find first by mistake, causing the dreaded 'Money Shift' and attendant overrev. After driving for 15 to 20 minutes, the gate mysteriously comes back, but its still 'sticky' as the stick is moves back and forth across it. I believe that alot of owners on their own havnt discovered the problem because many drivers do not encounter a major thoroughfare where fifth gear is used until after 15 or 20 minutes
of driving smaller roads. By the time they hit the big roads, where they want to use fifth, the car is warmed up, and the gate is present. But if these drivers just try to shift into fifth before that, ie when they first start out, or even when still stopped in the garage, they will see that after shifting into fifth, the shifter does not return to its normal neutral position. When the problem is first developing, it can , nevertheless, be nudged back into central neutral position. But after awhile, it cant even be
nudged back, because the defining gate is totally missing! There's nothing to hold the shifter in the central position.

Im enclosing a link on line, where there have been over two hundred entries from owners most of whom have the exact same problem! http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=48002

With so many users having the same transmission problem, is it possible that BMW is not aware of it? I think its highly unlikely. Interestingly, from our Parts CDs, we have learned that BMW changed to a different ZF model number in September of '97. Prior to that, they were using ZF S5D 310Z, and after, S5D 320Z. At least those are the numbers that appear on the cd.

When Ford SVT had the '01 Cobra horsepower issue where the Cobras were making less than advertised horsepower, did Ford say that the owners were using faulty or incorrect dynos? Absolutely not. Instead, they embarked on a costly recall and fix campaign for every Cobra issued before a given date.

I feel that for BMW, who must be fully aware that the problem is cropping up in cars with over 40K miles on the clock and very near or after the warranty expiration date, to not issue an immediate recall to adress this issue, they are behaving extremely irresponsibly in trying to get the owner to pay for their defect. Im one of the lucky ones with still a few thousand miles left on my new car warranty, and my dealer has been responsible enough to be replacing mine under this warranty. But there must be thousands of owners of '98s and '99s whos warranties have expired, and its largly for them that I am writing this letter.

Someone on the forum had said that the only reason Ford owned up to and addressed their issue was because the media was pretty vocal in publicizing the problem. Perhaps with some help from the media which talks to 'our' market, we can get BMW to do the right thing too.

Thanks for listening.

**joeyc** · 11-06-2002, 12:36 AM

Thanks Paul... If you dont mind, a few parts of that are coming with me to the dealer on Thursday. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will replace. Luckily I have the CPO warranty. Great letter.
Joe

**JasonJ75** · 11-06-2002, 12:38 AM

Very well said...

**vjlax18** · 11-06-2002, 08:06 AM

Someone on the forum had said that the only reason Ford owned up to and addressed their issue was because the media was pretty vocal in publicizing the problem. Perhaps with some help from the media which talks to 'our' market, we can get BMW to do the right thing too.

:
Well said

Anyway, I just realized that I have been using this problem to determine when I can start pushing the car over 3000 RPM.

Kinda been using it as a gage as to the temperature of the car.

My glass is half full

**ebm34** · 11-06-2002, 10:32 AM

Did the E36 328i/is have the same ZF tranny as the US M3s?

**jds7717** · 11-06-2002, 10:34 AM

According to the Bentley service manual, yes they did.

**paul e** · 11-06-2002, 12:41 PM

But, maybe they didnt make the change in the particular ZF model that they made in the 9/97 model for the M3s.

**mason@tirerack** · 11-06-2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by mcornwell
Are you serious?

Yes...I am kind of picky about my car and like to keep things original if at all possible.

**mason@tirerack** · 11-06-2002, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by RenaissanceMan
mason, you are being given a gift here, (the gift of no hassle from the dealer!!!) and i suggest you be wise and take advantage of it. this isn't something you want to have to pay for down the road, like many of us are going to have to do. in my opinion, this will help resale value, not hinder it. listen to paul!!! :

Okay..since it has been determined that I may be a moron, I have an appointment for my tranny to be replaced next Tuesday. Thanks for smacking me around guy (especially Paul). I'll let you guys know how it goes.

:

**///M3ryder NY** · 11-06-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by mason@tirerack
Yes...I am kind of picky about my car and like to keep things original if at all possible.

: Keeping major mechanical parts original isn't the same as wanting the paint to be original...or the body panels to all be original... This is critical stuff, a new tranny is a new tranny...there is no value (perceived or otherwise) derived by having the "original" tranny in there....none whatsoever!

If I were you i'd run to your dealer....NOW, before they change their mind...

**paul e** · 11-06-2002, 02:18 PM

>>If I were you i'd run to your dealer....NOW, before they change their mind<<

Its ok now... Mason has seen the light :--)

**racea911** · 11-06-2002, 10:44 PM

OK, add me to the list. 1999 M3 with 35,000 miles on it. Bought it 5 months ago with a CPO warranty good until 2005.

I've read this whole thread and just knew MY car wasn't going to have this problem. I live in warm So Cal and my car is garaged so I thought it wouldn't do it, but 1st thing this morning I tried it and the damn thing stuck under 5th gear. After exactly 15 minutes it was back to normal. I still had the gate between 3 and 5th but for how long?

Thread: Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

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