Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

**mcornwell** · 11-01-2002, 06:54 PM

>>Mike, good call. Do you know when this change was made? And, do I as a '99 owner have this S5d 320Z model, or, perhaps was another 'upgrade' done to it, if you know. >>

A previous poster in the thread indicated the new tranny started with 9/97 production dates. As far as I know, this tranny was used on all E36 M3's until the end of their run.

>>This was a bmw rep, right? So, why would he care that you were loyal to this particular dealership? Or, are you saying that he was appreciative not so much that you attended THIS dealership, but that you were giving your srvc business to ANY bmw dealership, rather than an independant, for instance? <<

I reminded the dealerships service writer that I had been loyal to his dealership, hoping that if he fought for me with the area rep, then his dealership would retain my business.

>>BTW, Mike, did they make you pay for that bushing work they tried but which failed to fix the problem?<<

Still waiting to see. The service writer did mumble something about the busings not being responsible, but being worn and needing replacement, so I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to bill me. I'll let you know when I pick up my car.

I'm more disappointed about not having my car to go to Jim Powell's this weekend. I knew he lived close to me, but just learned he lives a few blocks away from me (how could I not see/hear his car for the past 3 years?), and wanted to bring my car by for the usual Saturday wrench fest. Oh well, there will be more of those to come, and I'll need my $$$ for the tranny instead of a pair of his Demon Eyes or InV1siMirror.

**RenaissanceMan** · 11-01-2002, 08:17 PM

mike,

please fill me in more on the details of your agreement with bmw... is this a standard procedure they have adopted, or did you have to fight for this? my '98 is out of warranty, as well. please post more details! :-)

EDIT:

OOPS. never mind- just saw your last post... i'm going to try the same route.

**mcornwell** · 11-01-2002, 08:28 PM

Adam-

I posted all the details I have. My dealer service writer approached the area rep, and informed him/her of my problem. It never got to the point where I had to fight with them.

My suggestion to anyone that is out of warranty, is to gather as much information about this as you can, and present it to the service writer. From what I understand, they can never authorize out of warranty repairs on their own, they need to speek to the district rep for approval.

If your service writer has info to show to that rep, such as a printout of the table that Chuck is keeping on his site, or maybe a printout of the 180 posts here, I think you'll have a much better chance of getting some sort of concession from BMW.

It probably helped me slightly that I was only 58,000 miles out of warranty as well. If the car had 80,000 miles on it, I doubt BMW would be as willing to split the cost.

Good luck,

-Mike

**slvrm3** · 11-04-2002, 11:38 PM

dropped my car off today for the tranny. kind of think its gonna be a fight even though i have 2 years left on cpo warrantee. car also started developing a head gasket leak along with a bunch of other stuff. my bmw seems to be the "ultimate headache." i have gotten more problems and spent more money on this car then any other car i've owned. its a 98 with 60k and in the 5k i've put on it everything seems to break. and i drive it pretty easy. yes i do go fast at times like it was ment to but nothing pushing reasonable driving. i beat the crap out of my integra and no problems at all. is it only my car or are bmw's not all they are cracked up to be?

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 12:47 AM

Here's another good one. I happened to pick up a nail in my rear left Pilot sport which was new in April and has more than 80% of its tread left. Anyway, because the nail was in the tread but a half inch from the sidewall, the shop says it cant be/shouldnt be patched.

So I call up Tirerack, and order the tire, and the salesman asks me what kind of car its going on, and I tell him its an M3, and he tells me thats what he has! I ask him what year , and he tells me hes got a '99 with 49,500 miles on it! I say, before you do anything else, go out and check your shifter, cause a bunch of us have found this problem in '98s and '99s with over 35K miles, etc, etc. Well, folks, dont you know that he has the exact problem, and was so thankful I told him to check and to fix while still under the last 500 mi of his warranty that for a moment there, I thought he was going to Give me the tire I had called for!

You know, its getting to the point that I can almost bet that any '98 or '99 owner with over 40K miles I ask to check is going to report back that he's got it too!!! When is this bs going to stop. And what I really want to know is what model transmission are they giving us on the replacement! Im hoping that, as a 'replacement' tranny, its not going to be prone to the problems that increasingly seem to be evident in most middle aged '98s and '99s. Its clear they did something during the '98 model year to change the ZF model slightly, that should have resulted in a recall. No doubt, bMW knows about this, and made the financial decision to fix these as the problems arise, knowing full well that the VAST MAJORITY of problems will not be reported until AFTER the warranty has run its course, when the responsible thing to have done was to have issued a recall. They have shown themselves, by handling it this way, to be no better than any other car mfg, and probably worse than many. Frankly, I dont think Im the only one who will think twice before buying another bmw, now that Ive come to realize the way theyve chosen to bury the defect, and pass the cost onto the customer. This Stinks.

**vjlax18** · 11-05-2002, 08:17 AM

Paul, while you may think that BMW is hinding something, and they probably are, but they are still far better than any other company. BMW is the only company that I have ever heard of spliting the price on repair work after the warantee has expired. Any hopefully with this problem reaching other forums, and finding more people with the problem, BMW will fix this for everyone. I did say hopefully.

**///M3 NA** · 11-05-2002, 09:46 AM

Ok, this issue has become more noticable on my car as well. It has gotten slightly cooler here and last couple of days as I have been reading this, I moved my shifter over to fifth, well guess what stuck in there, yes it does spring back once the car warms up except now it is more evident. Oh yes I have 75K miles on the car.

**kapolani** · 11-05-2002, 09:50 AM

I decided to check this thread because there have been a lot of posts. So, I went out to my car (temp 47 deg), to see if I have this problem.

Car is cold - I pushed my stick over to the right (under fifth) and it stayed there! It wouldn't spring back to the left. I nudge it and it doesn't pop back over. When I put it in gear (still cold) 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th it goes back to its neutral postiion. I've never experienced missing 3rd and accidently hitting fifth (while driving) so I don't think my problem is as bad as the others.

Some observations - I can still "feel" the resistance that lets me know that I'm going to 3rd - so I'm not missing 3rd and going into fifth. I've been driving stick for a long time so I wonder if this is helping me "miss" the problem. I'm going to keep an eye on this and see if it develops into anything else.

for the record - 98 M3 with 52,000 miles on it.

**ASCH MAN** · 11-05-2002, 10:00 AM

Well, just to add my $.02. My Tranny was just replaced under CPO, just before the CPO was out (one day actually). Anyway, I was having a slightly different problem (klunking noises while shifting). The part of this story that is applicable to this thread is that I belive BMW has addressed your problem in the Remanufactured units they are shipping out. It is much, much more stiff now when going from nutral into 5th. It is like they put a super spring in there. Either that or I did have the same problem that all of you had too and never noticed it, so when the spring is how it is supposed to be it feels much more tight. Good luck getting yours fixed. I now have other things to tackle. Damn airbag light. Anyone know what the final cost of a new buckle installed is from the $tealer?

**jds7717** · 11-05-2002, 10:10 AM

A little background... I have a 99 M3 with 64,000 miles and I just noticed this problem about 2 weeks ago.

One thing I have noticed.... It seems that the temperature that this occurs is around 50F. I keep my car in the garage and one of the first things I do after starting the car is check the outside temperature. It was 61F this morning and I didn't have the problem. When I left work last night, it was 51F, and I notice the problem all the way home. After about 10 minutes, at a stoplight I started messing with the shifter. If I pushed against the gate at 5th, the shifter would just stay there. A gentle nudge back to the left would center the shifter again. The funny thing was that I could feel, the gate spring back with the gentle nudge.

I am comfortably out of warranty so I am probably stuck with this little issue since the chances of a recall are slim to none.

Jeromy

**slvrm3** · 11-05-2002, 10:29 AM

paul e- my cars at the dealer now. i just drove by and its just sitting outside not being touched. supposedly they are going to have it back by friday? very nervous they are going to do anything for me, since they seem to always manage to make problems worse.

i completely disagree that bmw is better then all the other companies. lets put it this way i drove my '96 integra for 22k miles with 70% of that having the car wide open and had not one problem. i've put 5k on the m3 and had just about every problem imaginable related to the drivetrain and electronics and i drove this car very very easy. bmw dealers treat you like your god until you drive out with then car then when it breaks they dont want to know anything about it and will replace everything not related to the problem and give you the worst reasons for somehting being wrong. my o2 sensor was bad and they said it was the clutch!!!!!!!!

and just to add to my long list of problems which ahve come up in the last 6 months, i was changing the oil the other day and noticed oil leaking out the head gasket around all the bolts. maybe this is why i ahve excessive oil consumption. serv. manager at the dealer told me they dont want to touch it unless the oil is forming puddles under my car. now thats nice that you can have a $40,000+ and they think leaking gaskets are acceptable until they poor all your oil out.

BMW is no better then any other company, and i've found alot harder to deal with.

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 10:44 AM

>>One thing I have noticed.... It seems that the temperature that this occurs is around 50F. I keep my car in the garage and one of the first things I do after starting the car is check the outside temperature. It was 61F this morning and I didn't have the problem. When I left work last night, it was 51F, and I notice the problem all the way home. After about 10 minutes, at a stoplight I started messing with the shifter. If I pushed against the gate at 5th, the shifter would just stay there. A gentle nudge back to the left would center the shifter again. The funny thing was that I could feel, the gate spring back with the gentle nudge<<

You dont really have the problem in its full blown form yet. I lived with mine for about 5-10K miles before the gate disappeared completelyl before its warmed up for 20 minutes, ie, you can nudge all you want, but the stick just stays to the right. I think that, judging by wnats happeneing with others, your condition will degenerate into the missing gate issue. For all of you still under warranty, even if youre just starting to see the problem, and the gate isnt entirely missing yet, it will do so before long, so I suggest you get to your dealer now while youre still covered and see if there's anything you can have done, before its your dime instead of there's.

>>but they are still far better than any other company. BMW is the only company that I have ever heard of spliting the price on repair work after the warantee has expired<<

But the point is they know there's a widespread problem which just happens to be one of the most expensive to repair, and which occurs near the warranty termination point. Not every dealer is going to persue it with a bmw rep to get some kind of partial dispensation for the owner. There are plenty, dare I say the majority of owners, who are going to have to spend a good $2200+ out of pocket to repair a problem which, in a non defective transmission, would never be occurring.

They could issue a general recall on all the cars with this model ZF, or, they could keep it quiet, in the hope that effected owners will just think its something peculiar to their particular car, not realizing, perhaps, that we do talk, compile lists, and generate information, etc. You can be sure that for evey owner who has pestered his dealer enough so that they get half of the repair paid for, there are probably 5 who wind up paying the whole thing themselves. BMW comes out ahead on the bottom line, but way behind in the company image thing. When Ford SVT noted that all their '01 Mustangs were a little down on power, they could have said it was the dyno the owner was using that was at fault, putting the blame on the individual situation, like bMW is doing, or, they could issue a general recall to up the power. Which is what they did. Every Single One that was sold got to have this costly upgrade.

Why is Ford behaving more responsibly than BMW?! I think being apologists for BMW is to miss the point. They made a choice not to issue the recall. Somehow, I wish there were a way to make them pay for it. Its not for selfish reasons, as Im getting my tranny replaced under warranty next week. But I feel so damn bad for the majority of '98 and '99 owners who are off warranty, and are now faced with a huge repair bill on a system which should last, if not defective, for the life of the car. It could even be argued that when we buy a new car, whether its a BMW or a Ford, there is a tacit or implied understanding that the transmission, excepting the clutch, is a system which is not normally a replaceable item; it is supposed to last the life of the car.

And, I dont think its possible that BMW is not aware of the issue with this particular ZF transmission revision that was made in '98, I believe. Its just not possible that a bunch of hobbyists such as ourselves participating in an informal internet forum have found a trend in repair issues which has escaped the analysts at BMW who are paid to discover such things. They graph and plot these things, and its just not possible they havent discovered what we have on our own. I think Ford behaved so much more credibly wrt their slightly reduced HP issue then BMW has wrt this defective transmission issue, that it really puts them to shame. Dont we have any lawyers in the midst?

**vjlax18** · 11-05-2002, 11:05 AM

SVT did make the recall, but the magazines got a hold of the story before SVT recalled the cars. Once the news was widespread, they were alomost forced to recall to save face. Maybe there is a way that we could get this more widespread than just bf.c. All companies brush things under the rug, it's just a matter of exposure before they fess up.

**jds7717** · 11-05-2002, 11:23 AM

Ok... a stab in the dark here. Please excuse my lack of mechanical knowledge of how the transmission/shifter interact.

I was trying to find an exploded diagram of the E36 transmission but the best I could find were the diagrams on a ETK CD. The image below was titled "INNER GEAR SHIFTING PARTS". Are these springs the gates that we feel when shifting?

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 11:59 AM

>>All companies brush things under the rug, it's just a matter of exposure before they fess up.<<

Yes, they do. And that's what we're dead against! I think we've been so brainwashwed about 'what is best for the company' that we forget that their first obligation is to the customer. How bout starting a letter writing campaign to one or all of the big 3 automags, or roundel, or bimmer magazine? Any other ideas how to best escalate the problem? How bout a letter to BMW NA, with a link to this lengthy thread, with a copy of the table showing aggrieved owners (although the owners who have not yet supplied missing information to complete the table should do so first.......but I bet there are some owners who are getting warranty replacements who wouldnt want their names going to bmw in an aggrieved status even though they agree with the sentiment). How bout getting a lawyer to send the letter? Any other ideas? I remember once there was a problem with my Volvo 850 Turbo model. Even though I didnt have the problem, I was the recipient of a $500 check simply because I owned one of the models named in the recall. The check was judged to be fair compensation, and even though I personally did nothing to acquire this check, I received it anyway!

**paul e** · 11-05-2002, 12:01 PM

>>Are these springs the gates that we feel when shifting?
<<

I believe the shifting of gates is accomplished by a series of springs, balls, and notches, so yes, I believe they are involved.

**mason@tirerack** · 11-05-2002, 03:41 PM

Okay...one simple answer please. If you DO NOT fix this, what will happen?

**JasonJ75** · 11-05-2002, 03:48 PM

Aside from always searching for 3rd gear and sometimes finding 1st, blowing your engine in the process....Nothing...

At least that's my main concern.

Car goes into the dealer on Monday.

**mason@tirerack** · 11-05-2002, 04:06 PM

I guess my concern is that the dealer is offering a remanufactured tranny but I don't want to tear out my original one if their is no real danger. What do you think?

**Jim Bassett** · 11-05-2002, 05:21 PM

If you're aware that your tranny does this, and compensate for it, then there shouldn't be any problem.

My 2 cents,
Jim Bassett

**jds7717** · 11-05-2002, 05:36 PM

Although this is a weak solution, I agree. I'm out of warranty and there is no way in hell I am going to spend any money to fix something like this. This is not $2k worth of annoyance.

**mcornwell** · 11-05-2002, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by jds7717
Although this is a weak solution, I agree. I'm out of warranty and there is no way in hell I am going to spend any money to fix something like this. This is not $2k worth of annoyance.

That was my initial thought, but when time comes to sell the M3, you can be sure that you're not going to get top dollar for the car after someone test drives it and sees the problem.

Perhaps my car was at a more advanced stage, but it sure did ruin the driving experience for me with the shifter always making a mad dash to the right.

BTW, dealer called this morning, car is not going to be ready today like they had estimated last Friday, the rebuilt tranny didn't arrive yet. They are hoping it will arrive tomorrow, but they didn't sound too optimistic. Is it me, or do the dealers that don't give out loaners the ones that take longer to do repairs?

-Mike

**nydog** · 11-05-2002, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by vjlax18
SVT did make the recall, but the magazines got a hold of the story before SVT recalled the cars. Once the news was widespread, they were alomost forced to recall to save face. Maybe there is a way that we could get this more widespread than just bf.c. All companies brush things under the rug, it's just a matter of exposure before they fess up.

Well i think we need to do what we can to get as much exposure as possible cause bitching amoungst ourselves aint gonna help much. i sent an email to BMW through their contact us link on their page with a link to this thread and in a minute i'll do the same with european car. it might be a good idea for anyone else affected to the same.

like i said before i have a 93 325is, but i wanna get a 98 or 99 M3 in the next year or so and don't want to have to worry about getting this fixed when i do get the M.

**mason@tirerack** · 11-05-2002, 05:53 PM

So...just so I understand...will this escalate into a full blown 'cannot get into 5th gear' problem, or will it just be annoying?

**nydog** · 11-05-2002, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by slvrm3
paul e- my cars at the dealer now. i just drove by and its just sitting outside not being touched. supposedly they are going to have it back by friday? very nervous they are going to do anything for me, since they seem to always manage to make problems worse.

i completely disagree that bmw is better then all the other companies. lets put it this way i drove my '96 integra for 22k miles with 70% of that having the car wide open and had not one problem. i've put 5k on the m3 and had just about every problem imaginable related to the drivetrain and electronics and i drove this car very very easy. bmw dealers treat you like your god until you drive out with then car then when it breaks they dont want to know anything about it and will replace everything not related to the problem and give you the worst reasons for somehting being wrong. my o2 sensor was bad and they said it was the clutch!!!!!!!!

and just to add to my long list of problems which ahve come up in the last 6 months, i was changing the oil the other day and noticed oil leaking out the head gasket around all the bolts. maybe this is why i ahve excessive oil consumption. serv. manager at the dealer told me they dont want to touch it unless the oil is forming puddles under my car. now thats nice that you can have a $40,000+ and they think leaking gaskets are acceptable until they poor all your oil out.

BMW is no better then any other company, and i've found alot harder to deal with.

why don't you find another BMW dealership to do the service on your car? i think you said before that the dealership you go to is close to you, but if they're always giving you a problem or they misdiagnose the problem it seems like its more headache than its worth

Thread: Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

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