Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

**///M3ryder NY** · 10-31-2002, 01:06 PM

As for shifting into 5th instead of 3rd, it sounds like you have this issue, it just happens to be at a slightly more advanced stage. I have NOT yet experienced the 2nd to 5th issue, yet my shifter occassionally sticks under the 5th gear gate...

What you experienced pulling out of the spot in the cold is another typical e36 problem. Often referred to as the "Cold Start Problem". It basically requires a software fix from the dealer. It's a known issue which your dealer should be able to fix.

**Madd96///M3** · 10-31-2002, 02:10 PM

so i understand bmw finds it cheaper and easier to just replace broken transmissions, but its more complicated than that. I havent used my warrenty at all yet, and if i dont use it i get a bunch of money back. The options i see right now are....buy rebuilt 6-speed and hope it doesnt have the same problem, claim warrenty and get new/rebuilt 5-speed from dealer, go to an independent dealer and have them work on the transmission. Which do you guys think makes the most sense? Also, my car has 75K miles, so if i wanted to replace some brushings and such, what all would i want to get? I was thinking maybe if i got uuc tranny mounts and enforcers, the tranny brushing you guys mentioned but i havent heard of before, and anything else fairly cheap i could replace, and then see if it helps. If theres still a problem i could just get pissed off and claim warrenty, but if it does work, we could probably test and try to isolate which thing i changed actually made the difference. Oh! i was also thinking about GM syncromesh tranny fluid, maybe a redline oil, i dont know what all for sure. But if anyone wants me to try some of that stuff, just let me know what you think might make a difference, and ill try it. Ive been wanting to do a few of those things anyway.

**paul e** · 10-31-2002, 02:26 PM

Im not sure what to recommend , because I dont quite understand why you get money back if you dont use your warrenty. What kind of warrenty is this anyway? Since you have 75K miles on it, its clearly not a new car warrenty.

simply, if the dealer were paying for a new tranny, thats what I would do. If I were paying for a new tranny, Id try and get an independant who was familiar with the insides of these trannies to open it up and try to fix the individual component which was failing.

**Madd96///M3** · 10-31-2002, 02:34 PM

im not too sure about the warrenty, i got the car used at 68K miles, let my dad take care of the warrenty thing. There is something where if we dont use the warrenty we most of the money we paid back, it was about 2K. But if i replace the tranny or something like that its just a normal warrenty, no money back. I dont know all the details, but it sounds like insurance that doesnt rip you off to me..but i dunno. What i do know, is that if the cost of a mechanic rebuilding the tranny was less than the money i can get back, and if i didnt end up having to use the warrenty on anything else a mechanic would be the best way to go. Ill call my parents to make sure i didnt misunderstand the warrenty thing, and make sure they didnt either, but im pretty sure thats the case.

**Madd96///M3** · 10-31-2002, 03:28 PM

ok, i read more about the tranny mounts and brushings, and it seems if they were a part of my problem, it woudl be a hell of a lot more subtle. Id think it was a spring, but how would a spring lose and regain tension? It seems like it would be some intermittent electrical problem, because if it was mechanical, i dont see how it could retain tension and resistance after completely losing it. Anybody found anything out yet?

**RenaissanceMan** · 10-31-2002, 03:32 PM

madd96,

it most certainly is mechanical and not electrical. the problem is that it is an issue inside your tranny. if you have the same probs we are having, bushings aren't going to do squat for it, unfortunately. bushing replacement will cure a 'sloppy' shifter, but not a 'missing gate'.

if you have a warranty like you say, get the tranny replaced for free and smile big!

**mcornwell** · 10-31-2002, 04:09 PM

The dealer has called me, and informed me that my problem was not fixed by replacing the shifter bushings, though they were visibly worn. Can't say that I'm surprised.

Like what others have been told, he informed me that the tranny would have to be replaced with a rebuilt unit, that dealers do not open them up, which would run $2500 or so.

I asked the service rep if there was anything he could do to escalate the problem with BMW (and mentioned the dozens of other, mostly 1998, E36 M3 owners experiencing the problem), and he informed me that he just needed me to say that for him to do it (apparantly he can't ask BMW to get involved without the customer first mentioning it).

I also faxed him a copy of the table from Chuck's site with everyone's info on it, thanks for maintaining that Chuck, as well as the link to this forum.

Keeping my fingers crossed. I enjoy my M3, but if this problem requires $2500 in repairs, with no guarantee that the rebuilt tranny won't suffer from this problem a year from now, I'll have to cut my loses and look at other brand of vehicles when I'm looking for a new car next year.

-Mike

**RenaissanceMan** · 10-31-2002, 04:21 PM

mcornwell:

man, that figures.

so, are we to assume, then that bmw isn't even going to WARRANTY the REPLACEMENT to guarantee that the problem is fixed??????????????

:

one more thing... i think we need to be really aggressive about getting chuck's list filled as much as possible with the names of those also affected.

**mcornwell** · 10-31-2002, 04:35 PM

I'm guessing that BMW would warrant the replacement for 1 year/12,000 miles or so (again, just a guess), but after that the customer is probably on their own. Seeing that this seems to be a design flaw, that hasn't been addressed by BMW in the rebuilding of the trannys' that they are doing, I wouldn't sleep too well knowing that I may need to shell out another $2500 if it happened again in the very near future.

Man, with my last car, an Mitsubishi Eclipse, it was the "walking crank" design flaw, now this. Maybe I should stick to puclic transportation!

**Madd96///M3** · 10-31-2002, 06:39 PM

Ok, i do have the warrenty, so im not completely freaking out, but im still not sure i have the same problem. As i said, when i got the car i sometimes shifted from 3rd to 5th, but i dont know rather or not that was due to my inexperience or the car, either way i have adapted and can now drive without hitting 5th instead of 3rd. But i just took my car out. It was cold, and the engine shuttered as it started. I drove it around, and it felt sloppy, but there was more resistance than the previous night. We stopped at an ATM, and while my friend was getting money, i shut the car off and played with the shifter. For some reason, without the clutch engaged, i can shift from neutral into first gear. Second gear and higher was resistant only at the end, but the stick would go inbetween gear with no resistance, just not all the way. I may have been able to shift without the clutch into all gears, but i didnt want to force anything. I drove the car around, and it feels a little better than the night before, but still noticably sloppy. I realized its been almost 3K miles since my last oil change, and i decided ill get that and tranny fluid replaced because its about time anyway. I usually change oil every 2K miles just to be on the safe side. If the oil and tranny fluid doesnt help, and im not very optimistic, i plan to take it to the dealer and see what the think.

So far this is what i know for sure......
the car shifts into first with absolutly no resistance without the clutch when the car is turned off.

when the car is on the shifter moves about a lot more than im used to, but im afraid to try to move it into or out of a gear because i dont want to break anything that isnt already broken.

I can still drive the car, all gears engage right away

the clutch feels weaker than im used to, it doesnt take as much pressure to get it down

the clutch also feels kind of strange, there is some response when i put it in that im not used to, it doesnt feel smooth, thats the best i can describe it

although the shifter has no resistance or little resistance, there is still some notchy-ness or something that like when i switch gears, its like the shifter was free to move, but there was something keeping it from being smooth at the last instant before to stick is all the way in position

i dont know what else to say, to be honest, it really wasnt too bad on the way back during the drive. It was noticably different, but i wasnt worried i was going to mis-shift. I wasnt driving hard though, and i would be afraid to drive at all aggressivly.

Guys i dont know.

**paul e** · 10-31-2002, 07:33 PM

>>Keeping my fingers crossed. I enjoy my M3, but if this problem requires $2500 in repairs<<

Mike, does the 2500 include their labor charge? My parts man was pretty sure the parts cost was around $1700, so if theyre telling you the part cost is 2500, Id ask them to check again. Re the replacement, I dont know that we can assume it will fall pray to the same thing. After all, while it does SEEM like alot of participants in this board are afflicted, would we be safe in assuming that out there in the real world, maybe 10% of the owners are affected? Even if it is that high, that would be an EXTRAORDINARY percentage, I would think. And, if true, than it would be 10:1 against it happening again to us, so maybe its not all that bad. Id really love to know how many were involved. Really. Is it possible that 70% of all '98 and '99 M3s out there are so afflicted? I just dont think it could be possible, and not have heard alot about it, and that the dealers seem to be totally unaware of its existance. So, lets still hope that we are in the vast minority of all M3s shipped, meaning that the liklihood of recurrence with the replacement units is nil. Id imagine the warranty to be a year too, although I dont know. seems like most parts we have replaced by bMW carry a year's warranty. What would happen if we needed a new engine. Would that carry a year also? Kind of weird that the parts on a brand new M3 are warantied for 4 yrs, but only one on replacement. Maybe its because the new ones are really new, but the replacement ones are rebuilds. Or, its because of the economics of the situation. All I know is that if, at 90K miles, my fifth gear gate starts to get sticky on its way to its disappearing act, Im not going to be the least bit amused!

**JLee** · 10-31-2002, 09:36 PM

what i would be really interested to see is if anyone with an aftermarket warranty such as warrantygold and warrantydirect can get this covered.

could make very much worth everyones while now to buy those...the price even if your out of warranty is about what you would pay for a new tranny.

jeff

**paul e** · 10-31-2002, 10:52 PM

>>could make very much worth everyones while now to buy those<<

You are so right! And very timely too. I never seriously considered BMW's extended warranty, which I guess I have til my new car warranty expires, to order. But, this year alone, with the tranny, and the shock tower problems, I would have had to spend near 5 grand Im guessing without the warranty. With all the niggling problems these cars seem to be having, maybe I should reconsider. Then, there's the school of thought which says that you will have probably experienced all the weaknesses the car is prone to in the first 50,000 miles of ownership, covered under original warranty. So, whats the sense in spending, 2 grand, or whatever it costs, to extend it? Of course, if this happens every 45K miles, then the extended warranty should about handle it.

BTW, why Warranty Gold or one of the other third party extended warranties over an extended BMW warranty? In the same way the new car warranty covers it, I woudl expect the BMW extended warranty to cover it...Doesnt it cover the same things the new car warranty does?

**JasonJ75** · 10-31-2002, 11:01 PM

I've got an extended warranty w/ a company that apparently no longer covers ///M cars.

Cost a pretty penny, but so will that new tranny. Going in next week. I'll let everyone know.

**JLee** · 11-01-2002, 08:56 AM

I well, for one I don't think you can buy an extended warranty from the dealer once your warranty is up. so for those of us out of warranty you have to go with one of these aftermarket companies and buy their barebones plans which i think will still cover major items such as engine and tranny.

for me its almost $2K to get that coverage now, and like i said i gets me a whole lot less than a new car warranty but still for major items could be well worth it...

hmmn...should i be the guinea pig ? there is a wait period, you can't just buy the policy and make a claim

jeff

Originally posted by paul e

BTW, why Warranty Gold or one of the other third party extended warranties over an extended BMW warranty? In the same way the new car warranty covers it, I woudl expect the BMW extended warranty to cover it...Doesnt it cover the same things the new car warranty does?

**Caymandiver75** · 11-01-2002, 09:09 AM

Jason, who is doing the transmission for you? Curry's?

**///M3ryder NY** · 11-01-2002, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by JLee
I well, for one I don't think you can buy an extended warranty from the dealer once your warranty is up. so for those of us out of warranty you have to go with one of these aftermarket companies and buy their barebones plans which i think will still cover major items such as engine and tranny.

NOT TRUE... I know first hand...When i bought my previous M3, someone suggested calling some dealers and asking...sure enough...you can get an extended warranty, with varying levels of coverage...straight from BMW. Rates vary on the coverage you opt for, your mileage, and how long you want it for.... I was quoted between 1600 and 1900 for 24,000 miles i believe.

**paul e** · 11-01-2002, 09:45 AM

>>I was quoted between 1600 and 1900 for 24,000 miles i believe.<<

Wow, thats alot. With all this tranny stuff, and other niggling problems, I was researching extended warranties last night. If you still have time left on you factory warranty, the rates for extended warranties seem to be better. For instance, I have 5K miles left on the new car warranty. I can get a 5 yr/100K mile warranty from WG for about $1800. Interesting, on the free quote form, you have to check if it has turbo/supercharger. If I didnt, its only $1700. I was afraid that all my mods would make an extended not useful. But now Im thinking differently. From what I can tell, on their Platinum plan, it lists all the components which are covered, vs listing those that Arent covered. All the components that would likely be the ones to cost the most to repair are on the list. I think though that none of teh warranties cover sheet metal, which I think would mean that anybody with cracked sheet metal on the rear shock towers would not be able to be covered for that. But, in evaluating these things, what are the odds that in a 5 yr period, or 100,000 mile what are the odds that youre not going to have a problem with at least one of the following:

Engine (all internal parts, over 35 components)
Transmission (all internal parts)
Drive Axle(s) (all internal parts)
Steering (all internal parts)
Electrical (over 32 components)
Cooling (5 components)
Sport Utility (22 components)
Diesel Engine
Turbo/Supercharge
Interior/Exterior (16 components)
Suspension (29 components)
Brakes (17 components)
Anti-lock Brakes (8 components)
A/C (19 components & refrigerant)
Electronics (20 components)
Seals/Gaskets (on all covered repairs)
Fuel Delivery (6 components)
Twin Turbo

Given what weve heard from our fellow forum participants, and from my own history with the car, Im changing my mine about these warranties. I think unfortunately the odds are pretty good that something will go wrong in at least one of these systems. And all it would take is one good sized repair to more than pay for the warranty. Of course, I suppose it could be said, on the other side, that Ive already experienced all the big things that could go wrong and gotten them repaired. But I dont know..

**umnitza** · 11-01-2002, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by BrazeauRacing

EDIT-updated
*First and Last name (include your bf.com username if e-mailed, so i'll know who you are)
*Geographic location (city, state)
*Year and production date of car
*Stock or aftermarket shifter
*Fluid used, and how often it's changed
*Mileage when symptoms started
*anything else that might be useful

I'm in the affected group - but there is ANOTHER part of this that you guys should consider - my tranny was replaced because of SEVERE notchiness going into 1st gear and 3rd gear, I had the jam the F* ing thing in there so hard to engage that I thought my selector was going to snap!!!

Here's my info:
Umnitza - Matt Grintsaig
Danville, CA
Stock shifter
OEM "Lifetime"
45K bought it CPO, they replaced the tranny with remanufactured one, but it seems that the new one has its own notchiness and might need another replacement, I have 91K on the car and will run out of CPO in a few months.
I'm as stock as the whiteness of my car. 5/97 production date, but I have to check that...I confuse both cars sometimes.

**RSnaider** · 11-01-2002, 12:53 PM

Add me to the list. I just noticed this two days ago. But like others my car is driven to the station and seldomly sees 5th gear. For me the detent is their, but the lever will not spring back to below 3rd gear. Once at the station, the lever springs back fine.

As for where it sits when parked, always in 1st gear.

1998 M3/4 - Build Date 11/97
Stock Tranny and Shifter
Original Lifetime fluild
37k miles.

-Ron

**paul e** · 11-01-2002, 03:03 PM

>>NOT TRUE... I know first hand...When i bought my previous M3, someone suggested calling some dealers and asking...sure enough...you can get an extended warranty, with varying levels of coverage...straight from BMW. <<

Ill say this for all to hear. BMW is NOT in the business of selling extended warranties. No bmw dealer will to it. You MAY find their Finance guy sells extended warranties, but its his own company, or hes fronting for an underwriter. IT is not affiliated with bmw. Show me one instance siting that BMW's name is affiliated with the warranty, and I'll retract my statement. However, I have heard from 3 dealers that BMW does not sell extended warranties period. And, I cant find a single reference on the net combining BMW and Warranty.

**mcornwell** · 11-01-2002, 04:48 PM

Just an update for those following the thread, BMW has agreed to pay 50% of the parts/labor for a replacement tranny on my out of warranty '98 M3. So, looks like I'll be out $1200 or so...

-Mike

**paul e** · 11-01-2002, 05:13 PM

Hey Mike, considering that youre off warranty, I think thats more than most dealers would do. On what basis do you think they made you the accomodation, rather than just say, hay, youre off warranty, you pay! You know, I was calling around my area looking for a good independant to switch to now that my warranty is getting near expiration, and I settled on a very well spoken and skilled guy down county a bit. I was talking to him trying to get a sense of how hed handle this had I gone to him with no warranty. Unlike the dealers, he gave me a long dissertation of how the inside of the transmission works, and that the likely cause is the interaction of the balls, springs, and notches. Had he received the repair, hed open it up, isolate the warn parts, order replacements, and fix it on up, for a significant savings. He gave me the historical representation of how the car mfgs and the dealer srvc depts have basically been at war from day one, and that the mfgs have basically decided to use the dealership srvce depts as simply parts replacers. Some dealers like Porshe for instance have what is essentially a modem build into the engine compartment. The shop techncian hooks up the car to some computers, and across the modem, the factory trained guys in Germany make the call as to what needs to be done and how. Strictly diagnosis online! Back to bmw. BMW then gets my tranny back, takes it apart fixing the damaged parts, buttons it back up, puts it on the test bed, and ships it out to replace your transmission when it has the same problem. Im sure they may replace more parts inside then that, but thats essentially how the remanned trannys come into existance. All I can say its good to know there are still those skilled mechanics out there who wont bat an eyelash at fixing one of these things, let alone the price savings involved.

**mcornwell** · 11-01-2002, 05:46 PM

I think the area rep's decision to pay for 1/2 the repair was a combination of a few things. I faxed a letter to the service writer and attached a printout from Chuck Brazeau's website which summarized all the problems (mostly) '98 owners were having, and pointed out that most of them started after BMW changed the ZF Tranny from the S5D 310Z to S5d 320Z, and that when this happened under warranty.

I also reminded the service rep that I had pretty loyal to their dealership over the last 3 years, as he could probably see from the service history, and that I would appreciate anything he could do for me.

I think alot of dealerships underestimate the value in doing little things like they did for me here. If and when I purchase my next BMW, it will be from this dealer, when I need parts, I'll purchase them from his parts department, etc... I've already had a friend by an E46 M3 from them, and will continue to point friends and family to them in the future.

Anyways, I'll post when I get the car back, hopefully Tuesday.

-Mike

**paul e** · 11-01-2002, 06:05 PM

>>all the problems (mostly) '98 owners were having, and pointed out that most of them started after BMW changed the ZF Tranny from the S5D 310Z to S5d 320Z, and that when this happened under warranty. <<

Mike, good call. Do you know when this change was made? And, do I as a '99 owner have this S5d 320Z model, or, perhaps was another 'upgrade' done to it, if you know.

>>I also reminded the service rep that I had pretty loyal to their dealership over the last 3 years, as he could probably see from the service history, and that I would appreciate anything he could do for me. <<

This was a bmw rep, right? So, why would he care that you were loyal to this particular dealership? Or, are you saying that he was appreciative not so much that you attended THIS dealership, but that you were giving your srvc business to ANY bmw dealership, rather than an independant, for instance?

At any rate, it sounds like you probably took just the right approach with him, without threatening or being obnoxious or anything. I think guys should learn from your technique, as, its not every day you wind up getting a car mfg to pay for things they dont have to. BTW, Mike, did they make you pay for that bushing work they tried but which failed to fix the problem?

Thread: Stick rests at 5th gear when cold

Thread Tools

Re: Detailed list

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions