Street tires and track days -- what to buy?

[document]

I was hoping I could stretch the tires on my e36 M3 (oe mxx3) through to september 16 -- the day after an upcoming HPDE at Summit Point. The fronts are still doing okay, but the rears are looking really grim, with nice, even wear down to the wear bars. I probably have something like 1-2/16" tread depth in the back or so.

I'd love to hear that I could take those to the track, but I'm dubious. Maybe if I took it REALLY easy until next month?

Anyway, I'm not ready to buy a set of track only wheels, so what should I do? I'm worried about slapping on a new set of street tires and chunking the hell out of them on the track and ruining them. I have been looking at the Bridgestone s03, since the kumho MX just won't seem to come into stock anywhere.

Am I just screwed? Any ideas on what to do here? I also autocross pretty regularly, but I don't know if that carries as much likelihood of outright destroying tall treaded street tires.

[Enigma]

For street tires I would get either S-03, BFG KDs if you don't drive in the rain too much, BFG KDW2 if you do drive in the rain, or Pilot Sports.

Believe it or not but if you are going to keep the car a while it might be cheeper to buy another set of rims and 'R' tires. For my car at least the 'R's are about $100 less per tire than the really good street tires. The Kumo's (Escta V700) that I run also last pretty well. It looks like about 1 season per set (16 events @ ~5 runs each)

If you can hold off for a bit grassroots motorsports should have a big tire review in their next issue. I have heard to expect it on the stands around the end of the month.

[frayed]

R comps are great, except not really ideal for a novice (not sure what your skill level is). I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Max performance tires from the Tire Rack, or a set of Toyo T1S tires, which are a great tire (the street tire Speedvision WC is running right now).

There's a great close out deal on Intermediates in 235's right now. These are actually a great tire and good for beating up on the track. Not sure if this link will work.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes....S+Intermediate

Brand new street tires are not the ideal solution for the track, but definitely better than your alternative, worn out street tires. In my experience, street tires on their wear bars drive like shit on the track. Too many heat cycle to generate anything resembling grip. (can you say power-on oversteer?)

[Keith_M3-4]

I'm in the same boat.. now with my H&R C/O.. the worn out rears tires feel terrible.

That is a great price for the AVS Intermediates. Is they very noisy?

How about the AVX ES100's, only at $106 for the 245 size.

TIA

[frayed]

My understanding is that they are noisy. But, hard do complain for their level of performance for under 70/each. Hey, approach it this way. You'll never hear tire noise through your helmet anyway. :12:

[document]

Yeah, I'm pretty much a novice -- one track weekend, and four autocrosses, so far. Probably four more autocrosses this year, and one, maybe two track events. I'm sure I could go faster, especially at the autox, with dot R's, but I've got a lot of driving to work on first, in my opinion. I have a feeling that just getting some newer, less abused street tires will knock a second or so off my autox times.

So, I should just suck it up and get street tires for now, looks like. The question remains: Am I going to destroy my tires when I hit the track, or just accelerate the wear some? I can easily live with the latter, but I'd be bummed out to burn up some rotors and a new set of tires all in the same weekend.

Jeff -- that link worked, and those tires are crazy cheap! I may have to give them a shot. It's either them or the kumho MX, now that they're finally back in stock. Do you have personal experience with these? Lots of comments about noise in the tirerack reviews -- any truth to that?

edit: Had to leave my desk, so I see that the noise factor has been discussed? Just how noisy, can anyone help here? I have to take the honies out in the car, too, you know, and I can't make THEM wear a helmet...

[frayed]

doc-

No experience with the intermediates or the MX's. I've run newish tires on the track. They make a lot of noise, but aren't that horrible. Kind of wishy-washy at turn in but decent.

I found track wear to be reasonable with streets. I'd throw the intermediates on and beat the living daylights out of them. After two track events, a year's worth of mileage, you'll be completely assimilated, then buy track wheels, R comps, the whole shebang. :12: I will say this though. Stay on streets as long as possible. When you go to the sticky tires, you wear stuff out big time.

Right now I'm dealing with a fuel starvation issue, which was never an issue with streets. Damn, cost money to go fast!

[Keith_M3-4]

The ES100 have a 30 day trial.. seems a bit on the hard side though.. 280, especially compared to AVS Int., which are 160.

[someguy]

I liked my S-03s a lot, so much that I've got a second set waiting to be installed.

I thought about the KDs, becasue they certainly appear to give better dry grip and probably sharper turn in response and steering feel. But, at $200 more total, I didn't think it would be worth it since I was very happy with the S-03s.

Excellent grip wet and dry, VERY stiff sidewalls. EXTREMELY Loud though

[Kos-motate139]

I've used the AVS Intermediates a lot, raced two autocross seasons on two different sets of them. Unfortunately it was on my 2002tii, so you'll have to adjust my comments from 195/60x14 to appropriate.

They are really a great all around tire, and as you noted, pretty cheap, since they're discontinuing them soon. They have good grip, are fine even wet, are compliant and are not the very quietest tire, but I never bothered me at all. The Falken Azenis I use for race tires now are much louder, more in the A032R range they say.

It was my impression the AVS Sport is/was a better tire for the M3, mostly because the sidewalls on the AVSi weren't super stiff. But again, that's the 60 series version...the 40 or 45 series could be better there. All it really means is they're a little more touchy about pressure, which isn't that big a deal.

Also, I always did a lot better with them racing on asphalt vs. concrete. Not sure if that was the car too, but there you go.

Best thing about them is their top level of communication they provide. It's easy to drive them at the limits, and they practically give you an engraved invitation to let you know they're about to let go.

They would probably suit your needs fine. But like any HP application on a street tire, be sure they've got a good 750-1000 miles to break 'em in before expecting their best.

[document]

Thanks for the first hand info, Andy, and thanks for the heads up on the tirerack special, Jeff. That price is unreal.

I've got 4 235/40R17 AVS Intermediates on the way to a local installer. $64/each. That's less than twice the cost the installer wants to mount/balance/dispose ($33/each). The tires review decently at tirerack, and it really sounds like they'll suit me well at the track and autox.

[gary buff]

<street tires on their wear bars drive like shit on the track.>

I largely agree, but I was turning consistent 1:57s this past weekend @ Mid-Ohio on trashed (now) Dunlop SP8000s. I've been using them forever and am happy with the cost/performance ratio; Dunlop has been trying to discontinue them for years (since the 9000 came out) but they haven't due to demand, I guess.

Gary Buff
1995 318ti

[cobalt]

Originally posted by Keith_M3-4
I'm in the same boat.. now with my H&R C/O.. the worn out rears tires feel terrible.

That is a great price for the AVS Intermediates. Is they very noisy?

How about the AVX ES100's, only at $106 for the 245 size.

TIA

Yes, I'd be interested in hearing about the new AVS ES100's from Yokohama. I have used the AVS Sport, and it is an excellent max-performance tire. I am currently on Bridgestone S-03's, but they only lasted me 8000 street miles, so I'm looking to try something else. The Toyo Proxes T1-S has also worked very well for me in the past.

Has anyone tried the new Kuhmo (sp?) Ecsta MX?

-Andie

[document]

Okay. I've got the AVS Intermediates on my car now, 235/40R17 all around on staggered 10 spokes. They are a little bulgy on the front 7.5" rims, but I think it'll be okay. Look great on the rear 8.5".

So far I am extremely pleased. Got to test the wet traction out in the big downpour right after installation, and they seem okay there. No worse than my worn out michelins, for sure. Dry traction seems very good. I haven't pushed them super hard yet while I wait to scrub off the mold release and otherwise break them in a little, but even so they're noticeably more sticky than my old tires. A little extra width in the front helps, but the rubber is stickier to the touch, too.

Anyway, thanks again for the heads up on that tire deal, Jeff. I'm tempted to buy another set of four, they're so damn cheap. I'm looking forward to taking these to the autox, and if I can ever get into another driver's ed class, to the track.

[Cannon]

You can't go wrong w/ the Intermediates. I've got them on my LTW for street tires (Kumho's for the track). From a grip standpoint, the AVS Intermediates do remarkably well on the track. They continue to grip like crazy even when they are very hot. I watched a mostly stock Mustang run consistant 1:39's at Willow Springs, and that's a damn good pace for a stock Mustang. He was very happy w/ the performance of the AVS I's.

I had a set on my old '91 Integra forever. Great tire.

Chris

[Gibba]

The stock 330ci with sports package comes with 225 in the front and 245 in the rear.

When my tires run out, if I went 235 all around would it make a difference? Or should I stick with the stock 225 and 245?

Plus, how do you know when your tires are too bald for street/ auto x? Is there a test?

Thanks.

[Jim O.]

Originally posted by Gibba
Plus, how do you know when your tires are too bald for street/ auto x? Is there a test?

The lower limit is when the wear bars start to show. However, you might want to get new tires earlier if you have to worry about driving while it's wet outside. So, you might want to change your tires before you hit the wear bars if it's winter, but wait until you hit the wear bars if it's summer...

For autox, about the same - with street tires, by the time you get to the wear bars, the tire has been heat cycled so many times that the rubber is pretty hard. Also, the tread compound used in the inside of the tire is usually harder than the stuff on the outside, so it doesn't grip very well. Some people think that once they wear off the tread, the tires will be just like race slicks - they're sadly mistaken...

Jim

[Gibba]

Wear bars huh?

I have never seen these before. I will go and try to locate these suckers.

I have driven 12k miles on my street tires with 3 auto-xs. The tires get a good workout on the street too.

Thanks Jim O. Your posts are always informative

[TedK]

Another vote for the AVSi. I ran them on my RX-7 Turbo back in the day and they were great. I don't even remember them being that noisy over the turbo whine. That's a killer deal for those tires. Newer tires are better, but not 3x better than the AVSi.

Hell, if they do eventually get noisy, just go get the S-03s. You'll still get something out of your $250 spent!

Don't take your old tires to the track. They're probably 60% of the traction that they used to be. You don't want any surprises at Summit Point.

[document]

No, those tires are in a landfill by now, I'm sure. They were utterly wasted, I now realize. I am probably going to buy another set of four AVS intermediates before they're all gone, and just keep 'em around until I use up my current set.

I am definitely enjoying having some traction, for a change.

[jww///95]

Originally posted by document
I was hoping I could stretch the tires on my e36 M3 (oe mxx3) through to september 16 -- the day after an upcoming HPDE at Summit Point.

I was reading through some old posts and this caught my eye....

I'll be at summit on sunday as well, and it will be cool to see some more bimmerforums guys up there at the event. Drop by an say hi if you get a chance

later
jeremy-

[Cannon]

Another data point for the AVS Intermediates:

I was at Willow Springs last weekend and on the last session on Saturday I corded my LR Kumho. Swapped to my street tires (brand new AVS-I's w/less than 400 miles on them) for Sunday and proceeded to turn my best lap ever at Willow Springs - a 1:39.099. That's 1.3 seconds faster than I was on my used up Kumho's!

FWIW, I was running a staggered setup with 235/40-17's on all four corners (stock LTW wheels).

I'd say that you'll be okay on the AVS Intermediates .

Chris

[frayed]

Damn.

I have a buddy of mine that only dropped a few seconds going from S03's to R comps. I suppose street tires have gotten damn good over the years.

[document]

Originally posted by jww///95

I'll be at summit on sunday as well, and it will be cool to see some more bimmerforums guys up there at the event. Drop by an say hi if you get a chance

later
jeremy-

Unfortunately, I said that before I found out I didn't get into the school. Stupid lottery system. But have fun up there.

The NCC chapter really needs to get a better DE schedule next year -- I didn't even try to sign up for the Jefferson Circuit days.

I am going down for a three day porsche weekend at VIR in early october, instead. It's even cheaper than the two day BMW weekend at Summit, as well. Bit of a drive, but hey.

[jww///95]

Sorry, i rubbed it in a little bit then, but you are right, NCC needs a better system. This way the only school I even applied for this year, and I was waitlisted #22 for saturday, and (thank god) #1 for sunday. So needless to say, I took the opportunity when it came around for sunday, and asked for my saturday refund.

But now the weather is looking pretty lousy, so it may end up as a 2 mile skidpad, lol. But maybe i'll see you down at VIR sometime... I don't mind that trip at all!

later
jeremy-