S54 Motor HP Questions

**///MTV** · 07-31-2002, 11:36 AM

Alright,

Im reading about the S54 motor Euro vs US versions.

What is the deal with the following?

MCoupe US: 315hp

MCoupe Euro: 321hp

M3 US: 333hp

M3 Euro: 343hp

Same engine in all four. Marketingwise, I know why they did this. But I want to do something about the disparity.

Dinan software upgrade brings MCoupe US motor to M3 US motor hp/tq levels.

Obviously there is still more hp to be gained (10hp) compared to the Euro version. Is this more software tuning?

Id like to get my 315hp MCoupe to at least 343hp as I have the same "10% detuned"

: engine that"s in the Euro motor (maybe blow later then this is all a moot point

, but for now staying n/a

).

Would appreciate thoughts on where the difference is coming from and suggestions on paths to investigate to get my motor to the 343 level beyond just the Dinan upgrade (Conforti may offer more...last I read he talked about changing cam settings in his upcoming software as well)

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

**chazzy** · 07-31-2002, 11:43 AM

No, you're actually talking about two different engines. The 321 hp engine (S52) is the one that was available in the European '99-'00 M Roadster/Coupe and the '95-'99 E36 M3. That engine was not available in the US.

The S54 is available in two different lines of cars: the '01+ M Roadster/Coupe and the '01+ E46 M3. It comes in four different power ratings: 315 hp (US Z3), 325 hp (European Z3), 333 hp (US M3), and 343 hp (European M3). The 10 hp discrepancy between the US and the European cars for the same model is, according to BMW, due to catalytic converters (5 hp) and a difference in SAE/DIN measurements of power (5 hp). The difference between the M Roadster/Coupe and the M3 is due to a lower redline, a detuned ECU, as well as (once again, according to BMW), exhaust restrictions of size and shape.

The European version of the car is actually found everywhere in the world except in the US.

**///MTV** · 07-31-2002, 12:01 PM

ahhh.

Qwai Chang rescues grasshopper......

Thanks for the info!

Exhaust restrictions: I wonder where on the exhaust chain this weak point could be? My boat anchors came off and were replaced with SS. Wonder if "european headers" make a difference. Do they have less stringent emissions and thus different cats?

**SilverStreak** · 07-31-2002, 12:12 PM

I thought those #'s (315 vs 321) and (333 vs 343) were simply due to the fact that HP is measured differently in the US vs Europe.

In other words 315 hp as it's measured in the US = 321 hp as it's measured in Europe. And 333 hp as it's measured in the US = 343 hp as it's measured in Europe...

**Rook** · 07-31-2002, 12:15 PM

I'm with you dave, I thought the same thing.

But that doesnt make total sense, the S54 wasn't out in 98 for the M Roadster. That was the S52 thats in the E36 Euro M3. also 321hp.

**bimmerpwr** · 07-31-2002, 12:35 PM

That's what I thought too...

**SilverStreak** · 07-31-2002, 12:36 PM

Pre-S54, the M Roadster in Europe had a different 3.2 than we had in the US, 98-00.

Someone here once before mentioned how HP is measured differently in the US vs Europe, I think it was das or rukman...??

**chazzy** · 07-31-2002, 02:02 PM

Before 2001, the M Roadster and M Coupe (as well as the E36 M3) in Europe only had the S52 motor available -- the S54 didn't exist yet. It was rated at 321 hp. There was no US equivalent, as the US received a motor that only put out 240 hp. It was a different motor and obviously not just a difference in measurement. The US received a lower power motor in order to keep costs down. The 321 hp motor is no longer available. They stopped making it.

Fast forward now to 2001, where all the cars all over the world receive the same exact motor and no parts are different. Well, mostly. The M Roadster/Coupe got a detuned version at 315 OR 325 hp, depending on where you live. The M3 got the full motor at 333 OR 343 hp, also depending on where you live. The difference between 315 and the 325 was due to a) DIN vs. SAE horsepower measurements and b) the presence of a catalytic converter.

I think the confusion rests from MTV's confusion about the two motors. We're talking about two different, distinct engine blocks here. So, in a way, the '01+ M Roadster/Coupe is detuned in two ways: knocked down from the M3's engine output thanks to the lower redline and detuned cams, and knocked down further from the Euro version thanks to a catalytic converter.

**///MTV** · 07-31-2002, 02:37 PM

I am the base of all confusion........It flows outward from me.....enlightening all who read.....

lol

Sorry to confuse, but chazzy has straightened the matter out.

Any thots on n/a hp gains in addition to software......

Im assuming this will be pretty short

**jblack** · 07-31-2002, 02:49 PM

The HP difference between the US and Euro engines is from two factors.....DIN vs. SAE HP measurement, and the US exhaust has the Cats moved forward as compared to the Euros. This allows them to heat up faster, so they pass US emission regs, but the design is slightly less efficient, to the tune of about 2-3 HP. So the 10 HP difference between the Euro and NA M3 is caused by a combination of Cat placement and math! I knew we should have gone Metric...damn it!

**SilverStreak** · 07-31-2002, 03:24 PM

That's essentially what I thought and was trying to convey, just not as succinctly...

**Dark Helmet** · 07-31-2002, 03:30 PM

this was easy, nice job men.

**MACK1** · 07-31-2002, 03:30 PM

I believe the Euro motors that everyone was refering to in the above afformentioned post is actually the M50 in '95 and the M52 from '96-'99. We here in the US got the S50 and S52 in those same years. Completely different blocks and internals. I think we got the shaft. As for the above, sounds about right.

**SilverStreak** · 07-31-2002, 03:34 PM

"I think we got the shaft" You mean the drive-shaft or half-shaft?

**chazzy** · 07-31-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by MACK1
I believe the Euro motors that everyone was refering to in the above afformentioned post is actually the M50 in '95 and the M52 from '96-'99. We here in the US got the S50 and S52 in those same years. Completely different blocks and internals. I think we got the shaft. As for the above, sounds about right.

Actually, you have it the other way around. The 1995 M3 with the 3.0L engine was the 287 hp S50 in Europe and the 240 hp M50 in the United States. The 1996-1999 M3 received a 3.2L engines: the 321 hp S52 engine in Europe and the 240 hp M52 engine in the US. The M Coupe/Roadster, having been introduced after the S50/M50 production stopped, received S52/M52 motors only.

Part of the reason that the E46 M3 was so eagerly awaited in the US was the huge power increase the car would receive. Americans felt like they were getting the lesser car for a number of years. Finally, there's justice and the car gets all the HP it deserves. In Europe, the car was welcomed, but not as eagerly awaited, as the 321 hp -> 343 hp jump is not as significant as it is here in the US.

**jblack** · 07-31-2002, 04:11 PM

Chazzy,

Close.....

The US E36 M3 engines are designated S50US and S52US
The M50 is the engine in the 325, and M52 is in the 328

All M engines begin with S, all non-M engines begin with M(sounds backward, but true). The big diference between the two engines is the M50 is non-vanos, where the M52 is (other than the displacement diference)

**MACK1** · 07-31-2002, 04:18 PM

Sometimes when you see what we don't get, it feels like both Dave.

**MACK1** · 07-31-2002, 04:22 PM

I'll have to find the page that I read all the info on. It was a decent page and I could quite possibly be wrong about the European designation. I do know that the 95 and 96-99's were S50 and S52 though. And as fucked up as it is that we get a tuned 2.8L, I'm still quite pleased with it.

**jblack** · 07-31-2002, 04:41 PM

Number/Variant Disp. Valvetrain/cylinders Body range
M10 1.8 SOHC-8v/L4 E21
M12/6 2.0 DOHC-16v/L4 Formula 2
M12/7 2.0 DOHC-16v/L4 F2/320i Group 5
M12/9 2.0 DOHC-16v/L4 Turbo 320i Group 5
M13 1.5 DOHC-16v/L4 Turbo Formula 1
M20/B27 2.7 SOHC-8v/L6 ETA E28/E30/E34
M20/B25 2.5 SOHC-8v/L6 E28/E30/E34
M21 2.4 SOHC-8v/L6 Diesel E28/E30/E34/E36
M30 3.0/3.2/3.3/3.5 SOHC-8v/L6 E23/E24/E28/E32
M40 1.6/1.8 SOHC-8v/L4 E30/E36
M42 1.8 DOHC-16v/L4 E30/E34/E36
M44 1.9 DOHC-16v/L4 E36
M43 1.8 SOHC-8v/L4 E36
M50 2.0/2.5 DOHC-24v/L6 E34/E36
M50TU 2.0/2.5 DOHC-24v/L6 w/VANOS E34/E36
M52 2.0/2.5/2.8/3.0 DOHC-24v/L6 w/VANOS E36/E39/E46
M52TU 2.5/2.8 DOHC-24v/L6 w/VANOS E39/E46
M54 2.5/3.0 DOHC-24v/L6 w/VANOS E39/E46
M60 (old) 2.0/2.3 SOHC-12v/L6 E12/E21
M60 3.0/4.0 DOHC-48v/V8 E31/E32/E34/E38
M70 5.0/5.4/5.6 SOHC-24v/V12 E31/E32/E38
M88 3.5 DOHC-24v/L6 E26-M1
M88/1 3.5 DOHC-24v/L6 Group 4 (470hp)
M88/2 3.5 DOHC-24v/L6 Group 4 (850hp)
M88/3 3.5 DOHC-24v/L6 E24-early M6
M102 3.2/3.5 SOHC-12v/L6 Turbo E23-745i Turbo
S14 2.3/2.5 DOHC-16v/L4 E30-M3
S38 3.5 DOHC-24v/L6 E28-M5/E24-M6
S50 3.0 DOHC-24v/L6 (VANOS) E36-M3
S50US 3.0 DOHC-24v/L6 (VANOS) E36-M3 U.S. vers.
S52 3.2 DOHC-24v/L6 (VANOS) E36-M3
S52US 3.2 DOHC-24v/L6 (VANOS) E36-M3 U.S. vers.
S54 3.2 DOHC-24v/L6 (VANOS) E46-M3
S62 5.0 DOHC-32v/V8 (VANOS) E39-M5
S70/2 6.1 DOHC-48v/V12 (VANOS) McLaren F1
S80 3.6/3.8 DOHC-24v/L6 E34-M5

**chazzy** · 07-31-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by jblack
Chazzy,

Close.....

The US E36 M3 engines are designated S50US and S52US
The M50 is the engine in the 325, and M52 is in the 328

All M engines begin with S, all non-M engines begin with M(sounds backward, but true). The big diference between the two engines is the M50 is non-vanos, where the M52 is (other than the displacement diference)

You're right -- I wrote it incorrectly. Rather, the US versions of the S50 and S52 engines (S50US and S52US) are based on the M50 and the M52 and share the design of the M motors but carry an S designation. They have a single throttle body as opposed to the individual throttle bodies found in the Euro versions of the M3.

MTV: This sure is an exercise, isn't it? Look what you started!

**jblack** · 07-31-2002, 04:50 PM

That is exactly right..... All we folks on this side of the pond got was a bored out 2.8L renamed with an "S" designation. Of course, there is some other good stuff in there, and it is a great engine.

It sure is an exercise, but really interesting when you see where stuff came from. This also helps a lot when upgrading - It's a lot easier trying to figure out what bolts to what when you know where the parts came from. Strange to think you can swap cams between a S52US and an M52, but not between a S52 and and S52US!

**///MTV** · 07-31-2002, 08:31 PM

This was extremely enlightening......thank you gentlemen!!

How bout HP gains the n/a way? Any suggestions on top of software?........

**jblack** · 07-31-2002, 08:49 PM

Not much I've seen yet (and I am looking). I understand Jim C. is working on something. Hamman has a CAI, in conjunction with software, but I'm not in love with their solution.

I'm not even near being able to use the power this car has on tap from the factory. When I am no longer the weakest link in the chain, I'll look for more power!

**SilverStreak** · 08-01-2002, 07:36 AM

You could polish and port the heads, mess with the cams, etc-- ain't cheap though...

**mybimr** · 08-01-2002, 08:41 AM

I've got an e30 which will accept the s/m/50/52 engines. What are your thoughts on which is the best pick?

Other than the OBDII to OBDI conversion requirement and horsepower differences, I guess the biggest consideration is availability/price. Anyone know of good sources?

Are these engines equivalent to eachother from a reliability/ease of maintenance point of view?

In answer to the possible changes to increase horse power, check out Zionsville Autosport and look at their OBDII-to-OBDI conversion kit....they claim up 25hp gain....

btw all your cars rock!

I'm just going to have to make my own M3 out of e30!

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