The definitive subframe strategy thread

[slowbmw]

has anyone had luck with bmw in florida? i left a message with my service manager but no call back of course

[Randy Forbes]

I am new to this section of bimmerforums, but have a lot of interest in this issue as my E46 328Ci has this issue. I happen to have a background in metallurgy, fatigue and failure analysis. Looking at the E46 failures, the issue looks to be easy to prove as a design failure. There is a bunch of work to do taking parts from a failed car and show the fatigue cracks. One then needs to instrument a car with strain guages at the spot welds to measure the strains in real world driving. Given the steel in the car (can get specs on that either through discovery in a trial or through some investigation) the strains are either above or below the fatigue limit for the steel. With the lack of spot welds in this car (they look too far apart) this looks like a slam dunk. One may have to do some finite element modeling which costs bucks, but this may not be necessary.

The issue with the Z3's reminds me of the case against Isuzzu with the Trooper where they put half the spot welds in the A pillar that were put in by every other car company at the time. The Trooper was prone to rollover due to high center of gravity and when it did the roof collapsed. Well someone got killed and Isuzzu lost in court. Big time. Took years, but they lost. Looking at these pictures there is so many issues with the design I am not surprised they are failing. I know you all know this already, but reading through this tonight it is astonishing this was sold to the public!

Well, I am going to start with the analysis on parts from my car, and go from there. All of these, the E46 and Z3 fail at the perifery of spot welds. It seems that the Germans forgot all they learned in the past about metallurgy and how the heat effected zone of the spot weld reduces fatigue strength. I wonder if the Z3 might be able to build a case by comparing spot weld density in the chassis vs other performance convertable of similar performance caliber? Any thoughts? How is the court case comming along?

Cliff

I know where there are a couple of these (M Rdstr trunkfloor assembly) to play with...

[Ian 2.0]

Add me in to the growing list....shessh was under my car today to check my diffs and sure enough there was an ugly crack.

[cwarner]

I know where there are a couple of these (M Rdstr trunkfloor assembly) to play with...

Well I was more thinking that one should apply strain guages in a car without failed spot welds. Then one drives it, recording the strain guage data along with (hopefully) telemetry data on the car (speed etc). The speed and route data could be acquired by a handheld GPS. The strain data is then converted to stress via the elastic modulus (constituitive relationship for materials people). If one can show that the stress at these welds exceeds the fatigue limit with "normal" driving, then you have them nailed. It would be be a very strong case. This is the approach I am thinking about for the E46. Unfortunately, I need a car without cracks (my car has cracks). The floor sections you show could be usefull to test the concept for strain measurements, but one would need a BIG mechanical tesing machine for that and that would cost a lot to get access to. I need to discuss this idea with a few friends that are also in the field of fatigue and failure analysis and do a lot of consulting. I want to discuss methods for strain guaging the highest stress sites with them before I could be ready to do so. strain guages are cheap, and I could probably borrow the necessary electronics.

[Randy Forbes]

Well I was more thinking that one should apply strain guages in a car without failed spot welds. Then one drives it, recording the strain guage data along with (hopefully) telemetry data on the car (speed etc). The speed and route data could be acquired by a handheld GPS. The strain data is then converted to stress via the elastic modulus (constituitive relationship for materials people). If one can show that the stress at these welds exceeds the fatigue limit with "normal" driving, then you have them nailed. It would be be a very strong case. This is the approach I am thinking about for the E46. Unfortunately, I need a car without cracks (my car has cracks). The floor sections you show could be usefull to test the concept for strain measurements, but one would need a BIG mechanical tesing machine for that and that would cost a lot to get access to. I need to discuss this idea with a few friends that are also in the field of fatigue and failure analysis and do a lot of consulting. I want to discuss methods for strain guaging the highest stress sites with them before I could be ready to do so. strain guages are cheap, and I could probably borrow the necessary electronics.

I was thinking along the lines of an LVDT (my dayjob is instrumentation and controls). No time to elaborate at the moment; perhaps we should take this offline...

Randy

[cwarner]

I was thinking along the lines of an LVDT (my dayjob is instrumentation and controls). No time to elaborate at the moment; perhaps we should take this offline...

Randy

Email me at cpwarner@comcast.net I can give you my number so we can talk.

[JohnnyA]

I am also part of the owners that had a subframe failure. Knowing that this was just a matter of time before hapening, I had bough a kit from Randy in February and I was inspecting my car bi-monthly. At the begining of July at roughly 50,000 miles I noticed the first spot weld cracked and another one failing. I had already scheduled an appointment at a very good bodyshop to have Randy's kit installed. The estimate was for more then 3,000$ CAD + my kit and diff cover. Having dealt with them in the pass I knew that the work would be done to perfection.

As I was went to the dealer to pick up some parts, my salesman came and see me. He told me when I would change my other car and I told him that since I had some structural issue with my roadster, I was looking at other cars beside BMW. He couldn't beleive it and told me that a BMW customer service rep was at the dealer and he introduce me to him

I explained the BMW Canada representative, and made him aware of what was hapening in the USA. He asked me to go and show my car to the service manager and agreed no question asked to fix the car at what ever expense it would be, just like BMW Canada would have said make this guy shut up. I was then asked to bring my car for inspection at the BMW body shop where they noticed the cracks.

Right at this moment the manager of the body shop didn't want to fix it and was pissed at the service manager. <This is a modified car and there is no way I will fix this!" after spending a few minutes in his office with the service director (without me) they came back an agreed to fix it. Obviously without using Randy's kit. They wouldn't tell me what they would do but they told me that they would fix it. So I said to myself lets save a few thousand for now...

The car was dropped at the dealer and they removed the whole rear suspension. I went back to the dealer to see the progress and after speaking with one of the body shop worker and asked them what they would do to fix it, he responded by telling me <my manager doesn't want to to reinforce the frame but just redo the 2 spot welds and solder the crack."

I ran into the guy office and try to understand why ? he said that there is no way he would fix a car that was modified even if BMW Canada would pay for it.

I asked them to put back my car together and I will have Randy's kit installed at the original body shop.

Needless to say, that bodyshop manager will have very bad letter coming his way CC to BMW Canada.

[chgrec]

Everyone who has a subframe issue, needs to go to this site:
http://www.girardgibbs.com/BMW.html

Apparently they are compiling data for a potential class action though I have no details..I filled out my form and submitted it so we will see what happens.........

I got this from another thread that a friend passed on to me.......
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=588856

Chris

[JBgotM]

has anyone had luck with bmw in florida? i left a message with my service manager but no call back of course

I got mine covered and the work was done at Tom Bush BMW in Jacksonville. I wouldn't exactly call what I had "luck" with them. I had a big thread documenting the whole thing. Supposedly, the General Manager shook up the shop not long after my car was in there and rearranged things to try and fix the poor service they gave.

Johnny - sorry to hear abot that. I have found that some people react in a way that they know there is a big problem regaurdless of mods, and some people refuse to look at facts because they see something other than stock. On mine they essentially cut the whole rear end off and welded a new one on. Here are the pics stripped but with the rear end still on. They even had to uninstall my rollbar and most of the interior to do the work then reinstall it.

[chgrec]

Everyone who has a subframe issue, needs to go to this site:
http://www.girardgibbs.com/BMW.html

Apparently they are compiling data for a potential class action though I have no details..I filled out my form and submitted it so we will see what happens.........

I got this from another thread that a friend passed on to me.......
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=588856

Chris

I just got off the phone with this law firm. I cant go into the discussion per his request but I can say that anyone who had/has this issue needs to go to this web site above and submit a form. Even if you have already fixed your car......

While I am not doing this for the money (I doubt I wil actually see any since my car has been tainted by a minor fender bender), I feel that a corporation should not be able to treat customers so badly and do everything in their power to ignore or cover up what is clearly a design flaw......

This is the first actual glimmer of hope I have seen with regards to this issue...

Chris

[MC28REPSOL]

I will post back here when I can find a shop in the so cal area that can help me.

Please do that. as i'm also in the Los Angeles Area and need this done to my car also.

or maybe we could split the cost of a transport and just have Randy do it.... just a thought.

[Randy Forbes]

Please do that. as i'm also in the Los Angeles Area and need this done to my car also.

or maybe we could split the cost of a transport and just have Randy do it.... just a thought.

I think he found somebody, I'll be shipping his kit out tomorrow.

But I like your sentiment, I could use the work

[imp]

BMW have agreed to replace the chassis section on my 98 euro M. result + thanks for that.

Of course, it's been with them for 2 months already (without a loaner!..), but at least they've finally got the part and got the car stripped and ready to cut.

dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_016.jpg
dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_017.jpg
dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_019.jpg
(sorry, can't post urls directly for some reason)

[whoadude]

I think he found somebody, I'll be shipping his kit out tomorrow.

But I like your sentiment, I could use the work

Yes I found a shop, I will post back here and refer them if they do a good job.

Randy how about a plane ticket to the west coast?

[Randy Forbes]

BMW have agreed to replace the chassis section on my 98 euro M. result + thanks for that.

Of course, it's been with them for 2 months already (without a loaner!..), but at least they've finally got the part and got the car stripped and ready to cut.

dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_016.jpg
dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_017.jpg
dubious-reality.com/images/misc/IMAGE_019.jpg
(sorry, can't post urls directly for some reason)

They're a little BIG, but I can post them...







Looks pretty serious, I hope you get your car back soon and the repair is stealthy!

[gadperez]

For the ones who didn't know, my subframe cracked a few weeks ago. After many discussions with BMW Canada, they will pick up the cost of the repair for my M Roadster. Apparently, BMW is now aware of this issue and has come up with a reinforced solution. It seems that they will put a reinforced solution on my car, I have yet to have gotten all the details whether it's really good or not, but they will only warant their work if I decide to go back to my original suspension, mine is lowered. I'll get the BMW dealers body shop advice as to whether the reinforcement is really good, if not I'll go back to stock springs and have the repairs covered if the problem reoccures in the futur. If I keep the lowered suspension, they will make me sign a waver.

Do anyone have a used set of springs they want to get rid of since after they've lowered their car.

Anyway, this is huge guys, another victory on the SUBFRAME ISSUE.

[count_schemula]

Can I steal them there pics for my website?

[imp]

of course!

I have the unscrawled on versions and the original 1600x1200 sizes if you like, although they were taken on my phone so not great quality.
let me know.

[MC28REPSOL]

Randy how about a plane ticket to the west coast?

yes, Randy ..... i would be willing to pay to fly you out to Los Angeles. my brother has a garage full of tools and welding stuff. many be you could fly out here and do a few coupe's?

just a thought..... hey i'm serious!

[Stuttgart951]

Has anyone run the numbers on these failures, yet?

Im looking at Coupes and, although I know the problem exists, I want to be able to quantify it by production figures and failures per model and model year. At face value, it seems to be far more common a failure than say, an S54 popping and I'd be lying if I said it wasnt holding me back.

Anyone?

[mz.368]

Has anyone run the numbers on these failures, yet?

Im looking at Coupes and, although I know the problem exists, I want to be able to quantify it by production figures and failures per model and model year. At face value, it seems to be far more common a failure than say, an S54 popping and I'd be lying if I said it wasnt holding me back.

Anyone?

there is really no way to do that....any idea what the % is of owners that post on the boards? know about the problem? have it but don't post? know about it, have it, but don't know how to check? : Too many variables to quantify really.

As for letting it hold you back, that decision is yours. Why not just add the cost to properly reinforce it to your budget?

[Stuttgart951]

As for letting it hold you back, that decision is yours. Why not just add the cost to properly reinforce it to your budget?

I already have - there doesnt seem to be much of an alternative. It just burns my ass that BMW would even skimp in this area and, furthermore, that *I* have to pay to fix it.

[mz.368]

I already have - there doesnt seem to be much of an alternative. It just burns my ass that BMW would even skimp in this area and, furthermore, that *I* have to pay to fix it.

you aren't alone

[MC28REPSOL]

on this subject as far as what i have read on this and other boards. i would have to say that it is almost 100% that at some point in your cars life you will have this problem.

as for me my car now has 4,000 miles 2,000 of those powered by FI (Supercharger) and so far i have no noticeable problems. but with the addition of another FI (from another company) after i break in this new motor (1st motor ....Boom!) i'm looking for someone to install Randy's fix to my coupe.

hope this helps ...but i think anyone with a "Z" chassis should just add the fix into their budget as it will happen to you sooner or later but it will happen.

[2kredz3]

http://www.dinancars.com/Series.asp?...%20Tuning#1283

has anyone used this kit. . .do you think that this is what the BMW dealers are calling their reienforcment? cause i could spring for that and put it in my self. . .and seeing as i have a 2.5L i dont think i need the dual ear cover.. . do you?