Member
Here is a summary of what I sent my BMW service rep....
As I expected, this went no where. My car was involved in a small accident. My car parked, other car going less than 5 mph backed into the rear passenger side. NO damage to any part beneath the fender. They say the entire problem was because of this accident....But my car has this blemish on it's record that BMW will always use to taint any potential remedy....
>>>>>>>>>>
Some facts about this tear issue:
- Occurs in all model Z3s & MZ3, even with 1.9 liter engines
- Appears to be more prevalent in 2.8 and larger engines.
- Initial tears are invisible to casual inspection. Requires detailed investigation of Differential sub-frame & trunk with tool kit trays removed
- The local BMW certified body shop that BMW recommended & use said they have seen many of these same failures in the Z3 model. He is gathering the actual numbers for me. <br>(edit: I was later told that he could not provide with those numbers. No doubt after discussing this with his biggest customer, the local BMW dealer)
- BMW only made 13,000* total M roadsters & coupes for the US market. Toyota recently announced a recall after 68 complaints were filed National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). That’s 68 out of 75000 (>.01%) There are more than 2 dozen current formal complaints about the Z3 sub-frame tear issue at NHTSA alone so far; dozens more documented on the BMW forums.
- BMW NA has already paid to fix numerous vehicles including many well out of warranty
There are numerous discussions about this issue on all of the BMW forums, so it isn’t an isolated issue or one caused by abuse or accidents.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=402329
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=402183
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=426899
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=401478
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=390791
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=106262
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=108599
http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z3/659177-1.html
http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z3/6317928-1.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...hreadid=244843
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...hreadid=109101
This posting refers to an accident that happened because of the diff failure
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0&postcount=31
A few non forum web sites that illustrate the issue (please note the Dinan site, even they recognize the issue)
http://dinancars.com/SeriesPrint.asp?prod=1282
http://www.tcdesignfab.com/M%20Roadster.htm
http://www.z3power.net/Nfong_CrackFrame.html
http://www.thelargeglass.com/bmw/subframe/
http://www.thelargeglass.com/bmw/subframe/cases.cfm
Some individual owner’s photos that show their issue:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/m3man1...man1/my_photos
http://community.webshots.com/album/73771754LDHcQK
There are literally hundreds more links out there.… Photos of my car can be seen at http://photos.yahoo.com/chgrec under the album “a Z3 diff tear”
Please also have your BMW rep get in touch with BMW rep for Ohio, Mike Hardy. He worked with the Service manager at the BMW Store in Cincinnati - Scott Klein 1-800-651-4935 sklein@bmwstore.com.
They have repaired a 98 M roadster and covered the repair cost completely. That car only had 20k miles so I believe this shows that mileage has no bearing on these failures. The extent of the damage on my car simply reflects a defect that has been there for a while and was never noticed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, in no way a complete summary but just my compliation of hard work & research other's have done on this issue......
Chris
Hobby dismantler
I've had the car for 2 months now and drove 2,000 miles in that time. When I bought the car, the welds were perfect. Checked today and the first one popped. This sucks...
Last edited by Wojtek79; 11-21-2006 at 10:46 AM.
Member
Just wanted to tell you guys that I m another unlucky z3 owner that will go to the repair shop bringing my car today for repair,cost 3000 cdn money!!!!One thing I know is that I would have still bought the car so I l live with it.Try to get some pics.
mods,cams,m50 intake,headers,supersprint exhaust,bilstein,AA supercharger kit(8psi) e34 m5 clutch,ltwfw kit.
Member
Good for you! I felt the same way; the car is definitely worth the trouble for the enjoyment it brings.Originally Posted by hydromen
Do you know Johhny A? He's also in Montreal with a (Eurosport twinscrew) supercharged M Rdstr. He just had his differential mount/trunkfloor reinforced using the parts I supplied.
Member
Yes I know him he s the one who called me about this issue!!!He s having his car repair at the same place has me,we havent had the chance to see since his ts install(good for me)!
mods,cams,m50 intake,headers,supersprint exhaust,bilstein,AA supercharger kit(8psi) e34 m5 clutch,ltwfw kit.
Member
It became apparent to me that a lot of new owners and even old ones do not know how to check their subframes. Hopefully these pictures will help out.
The following pic shows the interior and sound deadening removed. Section 1
in the pic is about where the differential is connected to the car.
This is a closeup of section 1.
From the rear of the car you can see where the diff is mounted to the frame in the following pic.
This pic shows the crack, taken from underneath the car.
Member
Just wanted to let you guys know, my dad was reading this forum when he had this problem with his 1998 M Roadster, BMW paid 1/2 for it with strengthening (I think a method similar to Randy's) plus new rear shocks.
He was the second owner; BMW NA refused to pay 100% because they didn't know how the previous owner drove the vehicle and said that it could've been irresponsible driving. Dad wonders whether it was his chip + intake + exhaust modifications that caused the problems, but I doubt it personally... it's definately a design flaw.
Yes Satan?
stragely and pics will follow but under the carpet and what not i have what looks like recent welds(defentily not from the factory) but under the car it's a disaster it looks like the mount from the diff to the chassis is completely detacted!!!!!!! any suggestions on a fix that maybe i can do with a welder or maybe a plate and bolts as the person on pg 7?
Yes Satan?
ps what bushings can i replace to help stop this wonderful problem bmw has given us
Member
A lot of people now have this setup. I can provide the structural parts ready to fit, or I do the entire installation myself.
I put Ireland Engineering subframe (mounting) bushings in all the cars I do.
Complete set of pictures from this car:
http://www.rfdm.com/gallery/album40
Yes Satan?
is the finned diff cover stock on m-z's? also did you weld a second mount to the frame?
Yes Satan?
is there a diff cover that has a secnod mount on it?
One ///M Coupe bwah-haha!
Yes, I believe the Rogue (see post #185). Not sure if there is also a BMW part from another model.
One ///M Coupe bwah-haha!
Post #181 shows the OEM ///M Z diff.
Member
The differential cover options for the Randy Forbes solution are the E36 M3 OEM cover, or the Rogue cover for the E36 M3. Both are dual-ear. I went with the Rogue, I like having the extra fluid capacity.
Yes Satan?
yeah my e36m track car has the re one im just gonna take it off that.... i just have to figure out where im gonna get a second bracket for the second mount to the chassis.. could another stock mount be take off another z3 then turned around and welded to my frame?
Z-Day Master at Arms
The RE (or any dual earred diff) have different pickup points for the mounts. If you used the stock mount and a second stock mount, you would have to cut the original stock mount off and move it (to the left, I believe) and them weld it back on.
So yes, possible, but lots o work.
Member
I've posted a link to the whole process, just spend a minute and look through it.
E-mail me and I will reply with a pdf that outlines the work (and parts) required. You'll have to read it to get the most out of it.
erandyforbes@aol.com
Member
Besides side to side, the offset is different too. You have to start from scratch.
Last edited by Randy Forbes; 08-31-2006 at 04:08 PM.
Z-Day Master at Arms
Good deal, didn't realize the offset was diff (although I'm stupid, I should have).
Hey Randy, actually had a question for you... Been putting off installing the kit I bought from you way back when because of the prices of welding work down here (absurd to ludicrous)..
I'm a moderately decent welder, but I haven't had access to equipment in a couple of years and was thinking about picking up a new MIG welder for myself.
I was thinking of picking up the Millermatic 175 MIG, you think that would be sufficient for the reinforcement kit's installation? It's been a while since I've done anything, so I've forgotten a lot of it, but I'm sure a little practice would have me back in proper form in a little while.
Yes Satan?
so if i used the one off my m3 it wouldnt work? wouldnt the offset difference effect the axels/driveshafts?
Member
I just wanted to give you guys an update on this AR Motorsports shop. I spoke to Raineer today about installing Forbes kit, the guy is very rude, very short and brief. I may have got him at a bad time, but when you have a customer about to pay you $2K in labor I suggest you pay attention.
Anyway he basically told me that he would NOT install Forbe’s kit (as he did for Starreaver’s car) and would only install his own kit for a total of $3K. Hmm I wonder where he got the idea for his kit. Anyway I told him I did not want ‘his’ kit and that I would supply the steel package myself from Randy and the diff cover and all I would need from him is to install it. Personally I would rather give my money to Randy who designed and laid out all this information for us all than this Raineer guy who probably just copied Randy’s kit. He wouldn’t have it. He said no and that his kit is the only one he will install.
OK I hung up. BIG THUMBS DOWN to this guy, for those of you thinking to get your subframe reinforced at AR Motorsports in Los Angeles DON’T.
I will post back here when I can find a shop in the so cal area that can help me.
Member
I am also having problems with my rear subframe 02 mrd, They told me at bmw that is was bent. The car has never been raced, It did however hit a curb on that side going below 20 mph ~ (30kph). I did the same in my 02 vw gti at 60kph ~ (40mph) never did any frame damage what so ever. I realy think this a weak rear subframe. Where and how do we get assitance with the repairs. Gt bmw london Ontario Canada says ~3000$ to fix.
Member
Thanks for the heads up, I edited his name out of my earlier post.
Too bad he went though all that trouble, because as an installer, he would've qualified for enough of a discount to be worth his while. (cue for juker008 and his "group-buy" machine...).
Member
I am new to this section of bimmerforums, but have a lot of interest in this issue as my E46 328Ci has this issue. I happen to have a background in metallurgy, fatigue and failure analysis. Looking at the E46 failures, the issue looks to be easy to prove as a design failure. There is a bunch of work to do taking parts from a failed car and show the fatigue cracks. One then needs to instrument a car with strain guages at the spot welds to measure the strains in real world driving. Given the steel in the car (can get specs on that either through discovery in a trial or through some investigation) the strains are either above or below the fatigue limit for the steel. With the lack of spot welds in this car (they look too far apart) this looks like a slam dunk. One may have to do some finite element modeling which costs bucks, but this may not be necessary.
The issue with the Z3's reminds me of the case against Isuzzu with the Trooper where they put half the spot welds in the A pillar that were put in by every other car company at the time. The Trooper was prone to rollover due to high center of gravity and when it did the roof collapsed. Well someone got killed and Isuzzu lost in court. Big time. Took years, but they lost. Looking at these pictures there is so many issues with the design I am not surprised they are failing. I know you all know this already, but reading through this tonight it is astonishing this was sold to the public!
Well, I am going to start with the analysis on parts from my car, and go from there. All of these, the E46 and Z3 fail at the perifery of spot welds. It seems that the Germans forgot all they learned in the past about metallurgy and how the heat effected zone of the spot weld reduces fatigue strength. I wonder if the Z3 might be able to build a case by comparing spot weld density in the chassis vs other performance convertable of similar performance caliber? Any thoughts? How is the court case comming along?
Cliff
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