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Thread: The definitive subframe strategy thread

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    S52 Roadster
    BMW agreed to bring my M back to its original state. It goes into the shop in a couple of weeks. I was very polite with the dealership service manager and he really put his best foot forward. There was no stress at all and took a matter of three days to get the estimate and response from BMW. I am happy.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    Chicago
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    '00 M Coupe
    Can we get a list of vins here, along with the dealership fixing the car?
    how about everyone who has had theirs fixed by a dealership post up in this format:

    1. screenname, vin, dealership, city

    JBgotM, Z3speed4me, blueMRoadster, Randy Forbes.... who else? Post up, people!

  3. #53
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    Jun 2002
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    The Clown Shoe
    I'm gonna rework my website to handle some more information. As Robert Plant would have said if he was still relevant, the "Link Remains the Same."

    But anyhow, I have heard that is it technically, not a subframe failure. If not, what is a better title for what this problem actually is?

  4. #54
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    99-01 M Cpe & Rdts, X5M
    Quote Originally Posted by count_schemula
    I'm gonna rework my website to handle some more information. As Robert Plant would have said if he was still relevant, the "Link Remains the Same."

    But anyhow, I have heard that is it technically, not a subframe failure. If not, what is a better title for what this problem actually is?
    Differential mount/trunkfloor support failure.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
    Differential mount/trunkfloor support failure.
    we have a new name...

    why so...

  6. #56
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    SW Florida
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    99-01 M Cpe & Rdts, X5M
    Quote Originally Posted by count_schemula
    we have a new name...

    why so...
    Not at you, just at the car's breaking in the first place.

    Following my own advice; when something makes you DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

    I did

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    Granger, IN
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    24
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    1998 M Roadster
    OK, I just heard from my body shop and the manager did his thing to get the case to the BMW rep, who will only look at pictures and will not talk to me. It does sound like they will fix it back to its original unexeptable state. However, he even had me get info on Dinans fix, just in case they would do it. Then he called me back and said it was a 9000.00 afair because of the labor. He said they take the engine, interior, basically strip the car to do it. CAN THAT BE RIGHT? HAS ANYONE DONE THE DINAN KIT? That one is definately out.

    He wants me to find out more about Randy's kit, Randy you sent me some standard stuff, if you have anything else, email it to me ASAP, I'm picking my car up soon!

  8. #58
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    Jan 2004
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    Los Angeles, CA
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    1997 Alpine White M3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim98Mrdstr
    OK, I just heard from my body shop and the manager did his thing to get the case to the BMW rep, who will only look at pictures and will not talk to me. It does sound like they will fix it back to its original unexeptable state. However, he even had me get info on Dinans fix, just in case they would do it. Then he called me back and said it was a 9000.00 afair because of the labor. He said they take the engine, interior, basically strip the car to do it. CAN THAT BE RIGHT? HAS ANYONE DONE THE DINAN KIT? That one is definately out.

    He wants me to find out more about Randy's kit, Randy you sent me some standard stuff, if you have anything else, email it to me ASAP, I'm picking my car up soon!
    Good luck man. I dont see why you'd remove the engine and interior to do a repair that involves the trunk area...

  9. #59
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    1998 M Roadster
    The guy told me there were things for the front too. Thats why I think either he if full of sh**t or cornfused.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim98Mrdstr
    OK, I just heard from my body shop and the manager did his thing to get the case to the BMW rep, who will only look at pictures and will not talk to me. It does sound like they will fix it back to its original unexeptable state. However, he even had me get info on Dinans fix, just in case they would do it. Then he called me back and said it was a 9000.00 afair because of the labor. He said they take the engine, interior, basically strip the car to do it. CAN THAT BE RIGHT? HAS ANYONE DONE THE DINAN KIT? That one is definately out.

    He wants me to find out more about Randy's kit, Randy you sent me some standard stuff, if you have anything else, email it to me ASAP, I'm picking my car up soon!
    Interesting, I showed them Randy's kit and they said they have a fix BMW put together, but they didn't give me any details. When I get to Florida and have it done, I am going to try and probe a little to see what they plan on doing and see if I can't get Randy's kit installed. Randy's kit (which a BMW rep was involved with a little on Randy's cars) is obviously the best way to correct the issue.
    -Jason

    Weekend Car

    '99 Boston Green M Roadster - intake, M50 manifold, schrick cams, magnaflow exhaust, TCK D/A Coilovers 500/600, RD front bar, ltw flywheel & clutch, harddog rollbar, schroth harnesses, zionsville radiator, S54 oil cooler, stewart pump, etc ..... ~245rwhp

  11. #61
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    1998 M Roadster
    I agree. I am going to give them as much info as I can, and hopefully they will at least consider it.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBgotM
    Interesting, I showed them Randy's kit and they said they have a fix BMW put together, but they didn't give me any details. When I get to Florida and have it done, I am going to try and probe a little to see what they plan on doing and see if I can't get Randy's kit installed. Randy's kit (which a BMW rep was involved with a little on Randy's cars) is obviously the best way to correct the issue.
    Yeah, I beleive Randy's kit was well-recieved by his dealership

  13. #63
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    Apr 2004
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    Granger, IN
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    1998 M Roadster
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim98Mrdstr
    OK, I just heard from my body shop and the manager did his thing to get the case to the BMW rep, who will only look at pictures and will not talk to me. It does sound like they will fix it back to its original unexeptable state. However, he even had me get info on Dinans fix, just in case they would do it. Then he called me back and said it was a 9000.00 afair because of the labor. He said they take the engine, interior, basically strip the car to do it. CAN THAT BE RIGHT? HAS ANYONE DONE THE DINAN KIT? That one is definately out.

    He wants me to find out more about Randy's kit, Randy you sent me some standard stuff, if you have anything else, email it to me ASAP, I'm picking my car up soon!
    OK, just so I don't do Dinan a dis-service, the body shop guy was wrong. It only takes 16 hours to put the Dinan in. I had a feeling that he didn't know what he was talking about.

  14. #64
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    S52 M Roadster, WRX,
    Evidently, another local Z3 enthusiast took his car to the BMW Store in Cincy (where I took mine) and they gave him the run around and didn't say they would fix it. This is RIGHT AFTER they agreed to fix mine (but my friend didn't know they agreed to it yet). He called me this weekend and I told him about it. He actually hired the local BMWCCA president to weld up some reinforcements before he called me and now he is kinda pissed. I told him to go back to the dealer and complain, and he said he is going to.
    -Jason

    Weekend Car

    '99 Boston Green M Roadster - intake, M50 manifold, schrick cams, magnaflow exhaust, TCK D/A Coilovers 500/600, RD front bar, ltw flywheel & clutch, harddog rollbar, schroth harnesses, zionsville radiator, S54 oil cooler, stewart pump, etc ..... ~245rwhp

  15. #65
    Z3speed4me's Avatar
    Z3speed4me is offline Coupe Cartel Forever! BMW CCA Member
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    hey guys....car is finally back...check my posts for a lil bit more details

    ~Ken~ {'99 M coupe : 1 of 35} - 1 of 1 Custom Build by Maximum PSI 623 whp 516 wtq @ 21psi 93pump;RIP 3.24.13 (<OO\ (II] [II) /OO>)
    {'01 M coupe : 1 of 16} - Nick G Tune, CPI Headers, MaximumPSI sec1, Supersprint X-Pipe, Vibrant Resonators and Vibrant Black Mufflers, TCK S/A 450/500, RF dual ear, 3.64, 8200RPM ~294 whp 237 wtq

  16. #66
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    Apr 2004
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    1998 M Roadster
    Well, I just heard from my dealer. They are going to fix the one spot weld, but won't do anything else. Both Randy's kit and Dinans they will not do. They said they were not approved by BMW. Anyone have anything different on that issue?

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    Atlanta
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)
    Had an intersting visit with my local bmw dealer. The service manager and myself took the car into their shop and a gentleman who didnt identify or introduce himself began to go over my car with a fine tooth comb. I got the distinct feeling that he was looking for any excuse to blame this issue on.....When I asked him if he was the body shop manager, he replied "No, I'm just a guy who knows what to look for". My current impression is that he was either a used car manager or their wholesaler. While polite, they kept making little comments like "looks like the front & rear have been repainted & looks like it has been driven hard" etc. I dont know why I thought I would be treated with a little more respect.....

    Having owned 65 cars so far and sold a few myself, I know what to expect from a used car guy and should have seen it coming.

    One other thing the kept re-iterating is that they have a lot of these cars go through their dealership and they only ever seen one of these. It was an M that was involved in a rear end crash.

    The used car guy said it must have been from hard driving the M. When I showed him the photos of 1.9 Z3 & others from the internet his response was classic: "I take everything I see on the internet with a grain of salt. There is no way a 1.9 could do this"

    At this point, they want me to bring the car back for the body shop mgr & the local regional bmw svc mgr to look at it, In 3 weeks none the less.....Wont hold my breath....

    From my days of engineering, I know that it makes total sense that spot welds are not made to take this kind of abuse from a lateral force.....
    So I am going to do a little re-enforcement myself this weekend so that I feel comfortable to drive it. This car is my daily driver so I need it......Time to get on the "bus" and join the class action.....

    Chris
    My photos of tears can be seen here in the a Z3 diff album...it's a bad one....

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerZ
    Here is a list of E46 subframe failures, maybe you guys can join up with them.

    http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=subframe+list

    Good Luck!
    I think we need a simple list of subframe mount failures just like the one above to be started on this thread. I propose that the list columns be expanded to include if BMW repaired and & what % they covered...

    I will be happy to keep editing & adding to my post if those affected will email or PM their info to me chgrec@yahoo.com.

    Ill Go first:
    Model-Yr--Mileage--Last 6 of VIN-State--Repaired? --% paid by BMW- SCrn Name (opt)
    M-----98--132217----LC87052-----Ga------No-------------0------------chgrec

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by chgrec
    ... his response was classic: "I take everything I see on the internet with a grain of salt. There is no way a 1.9 could do this"
    ...here in the a Z3 diff album...it's a bad one....

    Jeebus...is this guy a knuckle dragger from the cro-magnon days?

    welcome to the 21st century idiot. The internet is prevalent tool as much asthe phone or tv or computer.

    The more these idiots get exterminated from the dealership the better the consumer will be.

    I really hope that once you get that letter from BMWNA for the fix or from the lawyers when you win the suit..well you can throw it that moron's face.

    I don't know how you could have kept your kool after that comment.

    Best wishes...the internet community is here to support us all!
    '00S52 RETIRED


    '07 Silver Gray E86 MCoupe


  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)
    Believe me, as Director of IT for a VOIP telco co, I wanted to smack him with my blackberry. If it wasnt for a little prayer of patience, I would have......

    He was the typical used car weenie who would say anything to drive down the value of the car. Then he would of course say the exact same car was priceless if it was on his lot....These kinds of guys are real pieces of work who would sell out their own mother to make a buck....

    Thanks for the support but I am not going to hold my breath that I will prevail...Justice in this world is rare.....None the less, I will get the car fixed and will keep it for a while then never buy a BMW again....kinda sad, the car has such potential...

    Thanks again
    Chris

  21. #71
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)

    A possible temp fix

    I wanted to post this so that perhaps others who had the same issue yet didn’t have either a decent BMW dealer rep or the cash to do the fix yet. I need my car as it is my daily driver and since I had to wait for BMW to “look” (really means degrade the car as much as possible to justify not paying anything) I figured I’d try a temp fix…..

    Keep in mind this is not a permanent repair and should not be used to replace a factory repair, Randy Forbes repair or the Dinan fix….this is just so I can drive my car while wait the 3 weeks for BMW to laugh in my face…I then plan to buy Randy’s kit and go from there……

    A couple of shots of my issue are attached…..as are some of the temp fix..

    So I went to my local home repair super store (HD) and bought a 2” wide x 36” long piece of flat steel, 6 3/8”x3” zinc plated bolts, 12 large flat washers, 6 nuts & 6 lock washers. Less than $25 in parts

    I then took my trunk interior apart & put the car up on jack stands (remember, safety first). I took my floor jack and placed under the differential and raised it as much as it would go. That pushed the cross member back up toward the floor.

    The steel was placed evenly across the inside of the trunk, just above the cross member & in between the popped welds. The ends of the steel was measured and hammered into a shape that would allow the ends to sit on top of the trunk floor side cross supports. Later, these tabs will be bolted to the sides if needed.

    A hole was drilled from beneath the car up through the cross member, just ahead of the sway bar. The steel bar was placed in position and it was marked so it could be drilled to match the new floor hole.

    A bolt, washers on each end & a lock washer by the nut, was run from the trunk side through the steel bar and down through the cross member and tightened.

    Proceeding from the passenger side to the drivers side, bolts were added in the same manner until they were all in place.

    Photos show that the crack is smaller and while the spot welds have been pulled back in their proper places, much of that movement may have been the floor being pushed down to them. After taking a test drive, there were no longer any squeaking or metal sound noises coming from the rear.

    I will be monitoring the trunk floor, diff brackets & cross member crack over the next few weeks to see how this holds up. Once BMW makes their decision at the end of the month, then I will take it to be fixed properly…..we will see but at this time, the result appears to be satisfactory for driving and the car feels much more solid.

    Ill posts some updates as I test this out and hear from BMW...

    Chris
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #72
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)
    A few more photos.....As you can see, the bolts have pulled the crack almost completely back together......

    If anyone has any questions or want more info, just PM me or email me at chgrec@yahoo.com All the photos can be seen at http://photos.yahoo.com/chgrec under the a Z3 diff tear album....

    Chris
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    I have lots of mods and they mentioned all of them when I went to the dealership. They said my car was out of warranty and the mods probably caused the problem. After presenting them with lots of documentation including VIN numbers, they replied via email and stated theat BMW would cover it. Kepp pushing and be polite, but since you made modifications to the car yourself to fix it, they may deny covering it.
    -Jason

    Weekend Car

    '99 Boston Green M Roadster - intake, M50 manifold, schrick cams, magnaflow exhaust, TCK D/A Coilovers 500/600, RD front bar, ltw flywheel & clutch, harddog rollbar, schroth harnesses, zionsville radiator, S54 oil cooler, stewart pump, etc ..... ~245rwhp

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    San Francisco, CA
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    1998 dark green BMW Z3 2.8l i-6
    How common is this problem? Does it make sense to consider fixing this even if the car shows no cracks or anything (yet)?

    Anyone have a ballpark figure for total cost for such preventive work?

    Thanks

  25. #75
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    98 328 conv (wifes) & 98 M Roadster (mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by JBgotM
    I have lots of mods and they mentioned all of them when I went to the dealership. They said my car was out of warranty and the mods probably caused the problem. After presenting them with lots of documentation including VIN numbers, they replied via email and stated theat BMW would cover it. Kepp pushing and be polite, but since you made modifications to the car yourself to fix it, they may deny covering it.
    I will always try to be polite. I have been gathering as much info & as many VINS as possible to have all my docs ready. I plan to assemble a "package" to present to the BMW rep. If you have any of your docs letft (vins, etc) I would love to get a copy if possible...send any thing you have to chgrec@yahoo.com

    I talked to the body shop that the dealer uses & recommended and when I asked them if they had worked on any Z3s with the same problem, she chuckled and said, yes, a lot....I am going by there tomorrow and would love it if I can use the dealer's own body shop to re-enforce my point.

    As for my mod, it was abolutley neccesary as I have to use my car and could not wait 3 weeks for the BMW rep to stop by. The service rep saw the car and I provided a dozen very good photos of the damage. If they try to use my "patch" as justification to not fix it, I will cease being polite......

    Chris

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