The definitive subframe strategy thread

[dstraigh]

So whatever become of this lawsuit in California? (The one regarding the Z3 subframe issue)

I've recently discovered that I have the infamous subframe issue. A friend of mine also has a Z3 M-Roadster with no modifications. He asked me how to check for subframe damage, I told him to lift the trunk mat and check the spot welds. Today he sent me a picture of the spot welds ripped away, on the left side of the trunk - exactly like my car. The photo he took looked nearly identical to my spot welds with the exception of one additional crack in the trunk.

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what was the outcome of the lawsuit. I can see that the originator of this thread hasn't posted a message in a long time and his website is gone.

David

[bimmerZ5]

So whatever become of this lawsuit in California? (The one regarding the Z3 subframe issue)

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what was the outcome of the lawsuit. I can see that the originator of this thread hasn't posted a message in a long time and his website is gone.

David

I'm not 100% certain, but in almost all cases, including the cases involving similar issues with the E36, E46, and Z8, BMW seems to have agreed to cover some portion or all of the repair costs but usually with a gag order condition. That appears to be why a lot of the lawsuits simply go silent and are settled privately.

[andreas7]

My diff mount is broken(only 1mm crack). I have no broken welds(for now)!

what to do?
1:I work at a BMW dealership and they tell me that there is a replacment kit. Is that any good, will it work?
2: The welder we have in our bodyshop has done a lot of the e-36. He told me he could fix it and reinforce the subframe/floor of the car.
3: Same as nr 2 but then buy the e-36 diff house so I get two diff mounts.
4: send an email to randy and order everything...(keep in minde that I need to multiply the usd with 10 to get everything back her to Norway)

You probably understand from what I am writing that i really dont know what i am talking about. I have looked in this tread.

I thing number 3 is the best solution...

[Randy Forbes]

#4. I don't think shipping is as much as you think it is; I've sent quite a few kits to Europe and beyond, places you wouldn't expect to find a Z3/M.

If you send me an E-mail with your complete ship to address, I can give you an accurate quote.

A guy who's car I did several years ago recently moved back home to Sweden, and he was wise to purchase a few kits to be shipped with his furniture. They didn't last long at all, and I suspect he wishes he'd taken more!

Randy: erandyforbes@aol.com

[andreas7]

#4. I don't think shipping is as much as you think it is; I've sent quite a few kits to Europe and beyond, places you wouldn't expect to find a Z3/M.

If you send me an E-mail with your complete ship to address, I can give you an accurate quote.

A guy who's car I did several years ago recently moved back home to Sweden, and he was wise to purchase a few kits to be shipped with his furniture. They didn't last long at all, and I suspect he wishes he'd taken more!

Randy: erandyforbes@aol.com

I will email you soon. I want to use you kit, but I am affraid it is expensiv. Time will show.
I bought some things from vac, when the taxes and shpping is compleated I paid 40% more. Love my country...

[vtecpower]

I've been searching for over an hour and cannot find a working link that shows how to check to see if my car even has the problem. I have a light clunk (sounds like a bushing is worn out) happening when I go over light bumps.

Are there any images that show how to check for the problem? Most images I find are zoomed in so close I cannot even get context / tell where I am looking. Anyone have a useful link for a beginner?

[Gofast]

Anyone have a useful link for a beginner?

This is a pretty typical failure, although his repair is a bit unorthodox:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-z...t-failure.html

Randy's gallery has a TON of pictures of many different failures:
http://www.spcarsplus.com/gallery/

[vtecpower]

Thanks, I found a little problem on my '00 2.3. Wasn't there when I bought it if I remember correctly, but damn! How much time do you guys think before I have to repair this?

[Randy Forbes]

Lift up the tooltray, and see what they look like on the rearward side of the flange.

It will get worse before it gets better.

[vtecpower]

Randy, I sent you an email with questions. Did you receive it?

[SunzOut]

You've caught this right at the start.

I had the exact same issue - I ground out the spot welds and re-welded each of them. Been fine for the last 2 years.

[Randy Forbes]

Randy, I sent you an email with questions. Did you receive it?

I have now! Reading and responding to E-mails has been (and will be for another week) intermittant while we're on holiday.

[vtecpower]

Got the email. Will review and send questions at some point soon.

[Kurtster]

I literally just brought home my 2000 M Roadster bought form a private party tonight. Now I find this thread. Should I be worried? How common is this problem? What will it cost me to have someone fix it and do dealers fix it? Yikes! I haven't looked under the carpeting in the trunk yet. The car has 29,000 miles on it.

Hi
I finished the subframe repair on my 2000 M Roadster. In my first post I didn't know about this sub frame problem.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...4#post18238744
After I cutting open the inside the sub-frame cross-brace I found no rust in any cracks or broken welds.
I am so that I bought my Roadster in Arizona.
I took over 300 pictures of the repair of the work for a log of the repair. I thought of making a photo book of the repair to keep with the car so if I ever decided to sell the car I could show what was done. I searched Google and found Shutterfly and made a 12 x 12 Photo book with 295 pictures and small descriptions of the repair.

Here is a link to view My 2000 BMW M Roadster Sub Frame Repair photo book
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...AasmLdq2aNGbiw

Here is a link to picture album
http://my2000mroadstersubframerepair.shutterfly.com/22

I want to thank Randy Forbes for some information he emailed me and for being able to study hundreds of pictures on his web site. During the repair on my Roadster I almost felt like I had done this before.
Thanks
Frank

[Randy Forbes]

I've done a few cars from the Boston area, the roads there must be really bad, as all were claimed to not have been driven hard (mature owners, etc.).

I don't like to talk about prices and such on this forum, as I'm not a supporting sponsor; the moderators here have been very kind about the amount of exposure I've gotten over the years, and I don't want to abuse the privilege

You can send me an E-mail, and I will tell you what it costs for the repair and reinforcement that I do.

Norksea, whom you've quoted, looks to have made a near-exact copy of what I do, but he's not the originator of that route (Mr Blonde & I hold that honor).

You can see several of the jobs that I've personally done (about fifty in the past five or six years), and where the damage originates, by looking at some of the albums in my gallery: http://www.rfdm.com/gallery/albums.p...lbumListPage=3 Good condition examples are albums titled "shr" & "fwr" on page 3, and an example of severe damage can be seen in album "jcr" on page 6.

I may not be able to give you an immediate reply, as my wife & I are still on vacation in New Orleans. We expect to be home before this coming weekend (I miss my garage...).

Randy Forbes
erandyforbes@aol.com

I literally just brought home my 2000 M Roadster bought form a private party tonight. Now I find this thread. Should I be worried? How common is this problem? What will it cost me to have someone fix it and do dealers fix it? Yikes! I haven't looked under the carpeting in the trunk yet. The car has 29,000 miles on it.

[Edev]

I was going to start a thread because it's slightly different but nonetheless, I found two spot welds starting to crack (almost identical to those posted above). I had a BMW rep take a look since I had contacted BMW NA. They finally got back to me and said they'll cover fifty percent (50%) of the costs. I got a quote from a body shop whom our local BMW dealership goes through. It would cost around a total of $1,200 (rounding up). So, they'd cover $600, and I'd pay the other $600. Should I bother trying to keep contacting them trying to get more? Or should I take what they've given me and run.

[RST Driver]

I was going to start a thread because it's slightly different but nonetheless, I found two spot welds starting to crack (almost identical to those posted above). I had a BMW rep take a look since I had contacted BMW NA. They finally got back to me and said they'll cover fifty percent (50%) of the costs. I got a quote from a body shop whom our local BMW dealership goes through. It would cost around a total of $1,200 (rounding up). So, they'd cover $600, and I'd pay the other $600. Should I bother trying to keep contacting them trying to get more? Or should I take what they've given me and run.

What I'd do with 600$: spend most of the money for the Randy Forbes kit (single ear-version is a bit cheaper than the dual ear upgrade afaik), buy a few spray cans and ask a friend if he lends me an appropriate welder for 2 weeks. You don't need too many parts. In fact the installation seems (!) to be quite simple if you don't swap to dual ear because there is no height measurement of the differentialcover needed.

I would't give the car to bmw. If most of them haven't ever heard of the problem how can they fix it?

Best regards,
Phil

[Edev]

What I'd do with 600$: spend most of the money for the Randy Forbes kit (single ear-version is a bit cheaper than the dual ear upgrade afaik), buy a few spray cans and ask a friend if he lends me an appropriate welder for 2 weeks. You don't need too many parts. In fact the installation seems (!) to be quite simple if you don't swap to dual ear because there is no height measurement of the differentialcover needed.

I would't give the car to bmw. If most of them haven't ever heard of the problem how can they fix it?

Best regards,
Phil

I've thought about the RF kit, but the body shop the dealership goes through has already completed a few Z3 rear subframe repairs. I trust what they'll do to mine to prevent it from happening again. The thing is that in the General Release from BMW NA, it says

"In considerationg of fifty percent (50%) towards the repair of the Sub-Frame, the undersigned ("Customer") releases and fully discharges BMW of North America, LLC, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG ("BMW AG"), and each of its predecessors, ect.......


So, they'll fix it once and if it ever comes back again, they won't have anything to do with it.

Also, I have no skill in welding lol. I've never done it before, and then I'd need a shop. But I understand what you mean, and I really appreciate the advice

[Edev]

Anyone?

[Randy Forbes]

Anyone?

You already know what I'm going to say.

[Edev]

You already know what I'm going to say.

I'm sure I do, but then it'll cost more than the original $1,200 quote from the shop since they'll have to install your kit as well. I'm just wondering if I should give them more information, and try to get them to pay more of the total amount. Do you know what I mean? I'd like to go your route, but, I've seen their work and it seems pretty solid since they've done a few Z3s already.

[RST Driver]

Eric do you have any pictures of their reinforcement?

I don't think Randys kit is the only possible solution, but judging from what I've seen so far it is the best. It spreads the load evenly and strengthens the whole crossmember.

If there wasn't the German TÜV...I'm still arguing with them. Pretty difficult to convince a German engineer of something that's not mentioned in any document or hasn't been done by anyone yet...

Best regards,
Phil

[billyr3d]

I'm just wrapping up the RF kit project myself (waiting for the paint to dry actually ). The kit was very well thought out by Randy, and although it was time comsuming and a bit labour intensive, it was a smooth process. I'd rate this job at a 4/5 as far as skill level is concerned. (5 being very hard.) As far as Randy goes, he's a 6 out of 5 kind of guy, honest and helpful. Thanks Randy.
I will post a write up when I get a chance

[Randy Forbes]

I'm just wrapping up the RF kit project myself (waiting for the paint to dry actually ). The kit was very well thought out by Randy, and although it was time comsuming and a bit labour intensive, it was a smooth process. I'd rate this job at a 4/5 as far as skill level is concerned. (5 being very hard.) As far as Randy goes, he's a 6 out of 5 kind of guy, honest and helpful. Thanks Randy.
I will post a write up when I get a chance

Thanks Billy! I always like to see the individual owner/installer making a post, as it can be just the confidence booster that someone sitting on the fence may need.

Please do the write up, with some pictures, and don't hold back on constructive criticism

[Apelfrey]

Hey guys, just bought a 2000 M Roadster and much to my surprise this morning after having bob sumerel put some tires on it, my rear diff. Subframe is broken, I am confident in fixing this myself but need to get ahold of Randy to order the kit. I live in northern ky, how do I get ahold of him?