The definitive subframe strategy thread

[M Roadster]

I just came across the article about BMW settling the class action lawsuit for subframe failures in E46 3 series. I didn't know that! Apparently they will inspect and repair any subframe damage to 99-2006 model years? Why wasn't the Z3 subframe failures included in the settlement?

EDIT: Oops.........never mind, I just found the thread in my search.

Does your edit mean that Z3s are included?

[Wojtek79]

Does your edit mean that Z3s are included?

No, they are not.

[Z3Vulron]

How do i check for subframe damage? do is it mainy visual?

Im scared now lol

[Jonttt]

We have been having some good success in the UK from BMW on Z3's. They are keeping the FOC repairs off the radar and have tried with some to claim that if over 10 years they won't do it but now they have recently done a few more older than 10 years old.

Here is a link to my regular forum with a thread running through this year if its any use to you guys in the states.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewt...er=asc&start=0

[knievil]

Furthermore to the post above here is a part I was not familiar with from BMW:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...=41&fg=25&hl=6

A pic is attached. Crazy price $344.90 (p/n 41117033491) as compared to the bracket listed at $21.57!!

Here is thread on it:
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20157

It does not seem to address the issue of the cross member all too well.
I think that Randy's kit with a doubled up bracket would be a better option. Stronger at the point of attachment also....

[Randy Forbes]

We have been having some good success in the UK from BMW on Z3's. They are keeping the FOC repairs off the radar and have tried with some to claim that if over 10 years they won't do it but now they have recently done a few more older than 10 years old.

Here is a link to my regular forum with a thread running through this year if its any use to you guys in the states.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewt...er=asc&start=0

You guys seem to have it a bit better than owners do here; while lots of owners have been taken care of (case by case) lots have also been denied.

I'm working on a real beaut now:

[Wojtek79]

For the regular dual ear mod, is an E36 cover good enough?

[Randy Forbes]

For the regular dual ear mod, is an E36 cover good enough?

Yes.

[Gofast]

I'm working on a real beaut now:

Holy crap!

It's amazing that the diff ear held on long enough to tear the crossmember (or vice versa).

[Jonttt]

Oh my god

I don't think there is any doubt that Randy's repair is great but obviously if you can get it done FOC by BMW then that is the way to go.

I know of several people who have done DIY repairs in the UK based on Randy's method (obviously short of shipping the car we have no choice if BMW won't play ball).

From all the contact I've had from owners in the UK re this issue the vast majority are popped boot welds only and maybe very small diff bracket crack ie no were near as extreme as the pictures I've seen such as the one above.

Out of interest do you know if cars with these extreme cases are regularly tracked / big BHP mods ? or are they pretty standard cars with "traffic light grand prixs" at most?

Its interesting because obviously most cars in the UK with this problem are the S50 321 BHP engines with this problem versus your much lower BHP S52 engines in pre 2001 cars.

Having said that I know of at least x2 1.9 litre Z3's with the problem fixed FOC by BMW this year (and several 2.8's over 10 years old).

My S54 definately has more/different spot welds and the stronger Diff bracket ex production then my previous S50 which had this problem. I'm not aware of any of the few UK S54 roadsters with this problem (not sure about RHD coupe's). My S54 is fine and I know its been tracked and driven hard (the cars history is well known on the UK forum)

[chgrec]

My car was never tracked and was completely stock when its welds & support failed....

Chris

[Randy Forbes]

The car in post #631 was a daily driver, with 132,000 miles.

Oh, and a Dinan/Vortech supercharger

Edit: Jonttt, I want to send you a PM, but it appears you have that blocked. Please PM or E-mail me, as I have a tidbit of information you'll be interested to know. erandyforbes@aol.com

[Jonttt]

Randy, email sent & I'll check my profile settings as well

[Norsksea]

Hi all
I live in NY and bought a 2000 M-roadster in excellent condition from a dealer in Mesa Arizona. I drove it home the end of November had a great road trip back in the Roadster. The Roadster seemed very tight and as I became use to driving it I didn't feel or hear any problems with it. I had test driven a 1999 2.3 Z3 locally a week earlier and noticed a clunking behind the seats during some quick accelerating in 1st and 2nd gear around 3000-4000 grand on the tach.
I am a Merchant Marine and work at sea two weeks of every month. When at sea I sail locally from NY as far as Providence RI and Baltimore MD. I rented a garage for the winter for the Roadster because I am not going to introduce salt to it.
When I bought the car I had tried to get a Dinan Front strut brace sent out to AZ but the timing didn't work out. So I bought one anyway and sent in home but can't install it until I get home from sea again.
Now am at sea and been searching the net for anything I can read about these Roadster. I started be going by back to Dinan to drool over so of the other items I wish I could buy. I found a Differential Mount Reinforcement Kit for my car but no pictures.
So I goggled the Dinan kit but found extremely little on it. But I found a lot about Randy Forbes Subframe repair kit and found plenty of pictures of the kit on his web site. I found this forum and then this thread about the subframe problems. I read the hole thread and thought I would post a reply.
I was a Mechanic in the US Marines and also worked in the jeep body shop. I went to welding school on the GI Bill. I worked in a Machine shop as a welder but when welding was slow I was taught the lathe and milling machine. Now when I am home from sea I spend most of my time in my basement machine shop making and fixing things for fun.
I have studied Randy's subframe repair photos (downloaded before the site went down) and am very impressed with his designing of an I-beam to be constructed cross brace channel that holds the differential mount. There was a picture of the I-beam held together with clamps, this to me shows the strength of Randy's design.
When I reached the last few pages of this thread there was some Dinan pictures of there reinforcement kit. To me there kit does not compare to Randy's design.
Being at sea now I can't see what the condition of my subframe is in or did I know about this problem before I bought the Roadster. But it doesn't matter in the spring I am going to fix the subframe with Randy's design anyway. When I get to look at it I am expecting to see some welds popped but I was driving home from Arizona I didn't heard or feel metal straining behind the seats.
I could almost guarantee that the 1999 2.3 Z3 I test drove has a big problem though.
Thanks
Frank

[Randy Forbes]

Hi Frank, glowing praise, indeed! The website should be back online sometime around 4:00 AM tomorrow morning.

I guess there's no point in giving you my bring it to Toledo schpeal, as it sounds like you're plenty qualified to do the installation yourself.

That return trip from Arizona was sure a nice way to get to know your new car, anybody buying one should keep that in mind!

[chgrec]

............

I guess there's no point in giving you my bring it to Toledo schpeal, as it sounds like you're plenty qualified to do the installation yourself.

..........

Having done the install of Randy's kit myself, I can tell you that anyone with mechanical ability and the ability to weld can do this installation. Randy provides great instructions and the kit is machined to fit exactly .

While it may seem daunting, it isnt all that bad once your get the car up and taken apart.

Chris

[Norsksea]

I went to the garage to remove the battery for the winter because there is no electrical outlet for a charger there. I found 4 popped spot weld in the back and one under the tool tray. The differential bracket looks good and I can see no other damage with the mufflers in the way.
I bought a two eared rear differential cover off a E36 on ebay for $75.
A can't see myself driving this car until I repair it. I am going to have this car for a long time so I i will fix it after the snow is gone and I can get it home again to weld it up.
Frank

[Randy Forbes]

Having done the install of Randy's kit myself, I can tell you that anyone with mechanical ability and the ability to weld can do this installation. Randy provides great instructions and the kit is machined to fit exactly .

While it may seem daunting, it isnt all that bad once your get the car up and taken apart.

Chris

Thanks Chris. I'm sure saying "it's easy" sounds more believable coming from you, than it does when I say it...

I went to the garage to remove the battery for the winter because there is no electrical outlet for a charger there. I found 4 popped spot weld in the back and one under the tool tray. The differential bracket looks good and I can see no other damage with the mufflers in the way.
I bought a two eared rear differential cover off a E36 on ebay for $75.
A can't see myself driving this car until I repair it. I am going to have this car for a long time so I i will fix it after the snow is gone and I can get it home again to weld it up.
Frank

At least you seemed to know it was inevitable, having already bought the cover. Only the shortest four (4) of the eight (8) bolts from your original cover can be used in the E-36 cover, and you'll need double (X2) the amount of them.

You'll also have to use a smaller diameter speedometer impulse wheel (supplied in my reinforcement package) as the E-36 cover is shallower than your existing cover. They're easy to swap.

[JoeZ]

Just an FYI that I've had Randy's kit installed for over 3yrs now (all LS1 powered years).

11,000 miles, track time, autox time and drag strip time.....no issues

[Coupe Dejour]

You can now add another victim. My 2000 Imola M Coupe that was born in Dec. 1999.

[Randy Forbes]

You can now add another victim. My 2000 Imola M Coupe that was born in Dec. 1999.

I don't suppose there's any point in telling you that the car I just finished was picked up yesterday...

[Coupe Dejour]

I don't suppose there's any point in telling you that the car I just finished was picked up yesterday...

Thanks Randy.
I'm having Jeff @ Haury's in the Seattle area fix it.
He has your kits, and other options.

[Randy Forbes]

Thanks Randy.
I'm having Jeff @ Haury's in the Seattle area fix it.
He has your kits, and other options.

If he has them, he didn't buy it from me!

[Coupe Dejour]

If he has them, he didn't buy it from me!

Ok, HAS had them, and if we go that route, WILL order them.

[Randy Forbes]

Ok, HAS had them, and if we go that route, WILL order them.