The definitive subframe strategy thread

**imp** · 09-29-2006, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart951

Has anyone run the numbers on these failures, yet?

I'm looking at Coupes and, although I know the problem exists, I want to be able to quantify it by production figures and failures per model and model year. At face value, it seems to be far more common a failure than say, an S54 popping and I'd be lying if I said it wasnt holding me back.

Anyone?

Just FYI, I've had every common problem with this car - wobbly seats, vanos exploding, rear chassis ripping to pieces, etc. but if my MZ3 was written off tomorrow, I'd be looking for another to replace it. (It's my daily driver, btw)

The Z3 is a parts bin car, and my particular one is definately a Friday afternoon special. I mean, it's no TVR, but then again, it's far from a Toyota - things go wrong.

Don't let this issue put you off - just factor in a few grand to get the area strengthened. It looks like it needs doing on every z3. Sucks, but there you go.

When it's working the car is magic.

**taiheung** · 09-30-2006, 10:29 PM

Okay so I took the M around to see what people could come up with as a preventative solution. Our car has no cracks yet and is still near new underneath.
2 different garages with 2 completely different options.

First garage quoted me $2,500 to custom weld on a second mount so that the diff would be dual mounted.

Second garage quoted me $1,200 to install a premanufactured dual mounted rear diff cover that still had the cooling fins... or a lot cheaper for a premanufactured one without.
The 2nd garage also quoted $400 to simply reinforce the single left hand mount by creating a bracket around it and securing it through the boot - ie increasing the strength and surface area of the support for the diff. He says this is the cheapest option and has worked for him in all other single-mounted diffs he's done - both street and casual track cars. He says that the dual mount is completely unnecessary unless I plan on really abusing the car in which case it probably wouldn't be enough either.

This seems to be a far cry from what you guys have been suggesting, or have I just not read the thread correctly.

Can I get your opinions? Do you think this 3rd (and v.simple) option will work?

**Randy Forbes** · 10-01-2006, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by taiheung

Okay so I took the M around to see what people could come up with as a preventative solution. Our car has no cracks yet and is still near new underneath.
2 different garages with 2 completely different options.

First garage quoted me $2,500 to custom weld on a second mount so that the diff would be dual mounted.

Second garage quoted me $1,200 to install a premanufactured dual mounted rear diff cover that still had the cooling fins... or a lot cheaper for a premanufactured one without.
The 2nd garage also quoted $400 to simply reinforce the single left hand mount by creating a bracket around it and securing it through the boot - ie increasing the strength and surface area of the support for the diff. He says this is the cheapest option and has worked for him in all other single-mounted diffs he's done - both street and casual track cars. He says that the dual mount is completely unnecessary unless I plan on really abusing the car in which case it probably wouldn't be enough either.

This seems to be a far cry from what you guys have been suggesting, or have I just not read the thread correctly.

Can I get your opinions? Do you think this 3rd (and v.simple) option will work?

I have an opinion, somewhat biased, but nonetheless:

The first garage is sounds comparable to what I'm doing, both price and description (unless I misunderstand their concept of welding on another mount; to the chassis or the differential cover?)

As for the second shop, I think their labor scale must be very low or that an absolute minimum of time/effort is spent on your repairs. Are they using modified covers that have a second mount added to them, or are they aftermarket specially cast new parts, or in the case of the non-finned version, BMW OEM parts?

The finned d/e cover alone costs upwards of $425.00 (less freight) here in the US, and the non-finned one (with hdwr) is about $115.00 USD (less freight). That doesn't allow much money for the required materials to finish the job properly with protective primers, seam sealers, undercoating and topcoats, let alone welding gasses, filler rod, electricity (for welders, grinders, air compressor, etc.) cutting wheels, paint equipment.

All of the above contributes to the results of a properly finished repair, at least one that a customer expects to remain acceptable for years to come.

This picture was taken over a year after I reinforced the differential mounts and trunk floor (final drive ratio was changed to suit the Eurosport twinscrew supercharger that I was installing).

Sometimes when the price is too low, you really don't get what you're paying for

Just my opinion, but all the BMW owners that I've met have very high expectations for the work that's done to their cars. I strive to keep them happy.

**taiheung** · 10-01-2006, 09:54 AM

Remember prices are AU, so what is $2,500 is a lot less in the US.

Garage 1 showed me an example and it was basically a mirror image of the left mount. Pretty straight forward.

Garage 2 said $800 for the finned and something much less for w/o fins. I will be honest when I say that garage 2 generally puts function over form, but they do good solid and reliable work. What I did want was a second opinion on simply reinforcing one mount vs. going for dual mounts. My advice from garage 2 is simply that if we're not planning on tearing the car in half then dual mounting the diff is going overboard.

On the point of costs - I understand where you're coming from however as I know that garage 2 isn't one to cut corners I'm a bit confused as to how garage 1 can come up $1,300 more. The big difference is that Garage 2 said that the finned diff they would install is premanufactured vs. Garage 1 that said they would custom build one - not sure how necessary this is.

Edit: Just found out Garage 1 is known for being expensive (and slow). lol. Still!

**Randy Forbes** · 10-01-2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by taiheung

Remember prices are AU, so what is $2,500 is a lot less in the US.

Garage 1 showed me an example and it was basically a mirror image of the left mount. Pretty straight forward.

Garage 2 said $800 for the finned and something much less for w/o fins. I will be honest when I say that garage 2 generally puts function over form, but they do good solid and reliable work. What I did want was a second opinion on simply reinforcing one mount vs. going for dual mounts. My advice from garage 2 is simply that if we're not planning on tearing the car in half then dual mounting the diff is going overboard.

On the point of costs - I understand where you're coming from however as I know that garage 2 isn't one to cut corners I'm a bit confused as to how garage 1 can come up $1,300 more. The big difference is that Garage 2 said that the finned diff they would install is premanufactured vs. Garage 1 that said they would custom build one - not sure how necessary this is.

Edit: Just found out Garage 1 is known for being expensive (and slow). lol. Still! They do look after some FAST M Coupes...

2,500.00 AUD Australia Dollars = 1,867.62 USD United States Dollars.

If it were me (and I was paying someone else) I would want the repair to be stronger than anything I could throw at it. The cars are already overweight (and overpowered), so whats a couple more pounds of steel?

Again, I'm pretty biased on what I feel the repair should consist of, so I'll leave it with that.

Here are links to pictures of two cars, both Coupes that I've done; one plans to supercharge in the future (black one) and the owner of the silver one plans to keep it as original as possible.

http://www.rfdm.com/gallery/album40
http://www.rfdm.com/gallery/album41

**whoadude** · 11-06-2006, 03:19 AM

link to pics of my Forbes fix. Thanks Randy for a great kit.

**imp** · 11-06-2006, 04:22 AM

well, got the car back after 3 months and the chassis feels nice and tight.

It's just a shame they scratched the hell out of the steering wheel, cracked the centre console and have done something to the temperature dial so it's intermittant. The hood isn't adjusted quite right, and the fuel guage took 4 hours to register full. It was also filthy inside and out which was extra annoying as I was told to come back later after it was cleaned.

Now, I realise that it was massive surgery and snags happen, but I'm not sure how they could concience giving it back scratched and cracked.

Add that onto refusing to give me a loaner, and I'm not all that happy.

**2kredz3** · 11-06-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by imp

well, got the car back after 3 months and the chassis feels nice and tight.

It's just a shame they scratched the hell out of the steering wheel, cracked the centre console and have done something to the temperature dial so it's intermittant. The hood isn't adjusted quite right, and the fuel guage took 4 hours to register full. It was also filthy inside and out which was extra annoying as I was told to come back later after it was cleaned.

Now, I realise that it was massive surgery and snags happen, but I'm not sure how they could concience giving it back scratched and cracked.

Add that onto refusing to give me a loaner, and I'm not all that happy.

are they going to fix all that and give you a loaner this time since it was them that f'ed it up? man that sucks. . .sorry to hear that. . .

**tinyhotles** · 11-07-2006, 07:53 PM

Anybody have problems with the 02 z3 coupe? i am thinking of purchasing one with about 44k, but don't really want to be welding it back to gether anytime soon.

**mz.368** · 11-08-2006, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by tinyhotles

Anybody have problems with the 02 z3 coupe? i am thinking of purchasing one with about 44k, but don't really want to be welding it back to gether anytime soon.

I haven't heard of any 02 failures, personally. I would still keep an eye on it, but wouldn't let it stop you from buying it.

**mako18** · 11-09-2006, 06:30 PM

Another one bites the dust!!!!

Thats right my car has 4 spot welds poped and a slight tear along the left side of the trunk floor, my diff mount is fine so far but the days are prob numbered... like every other z3, m roadster, coupe.........why why why...

Any way I went to my local BMW dealer/service center and spoke with Cindy a service admin I explained the issues with our cars and told her this is a wide spread problem she seemed very simpathetic and was understanding of my concerns, she sent me directly to the service manager Rick I sat with him and went over the whole thing again with him he seemed confused at what to say or do. Rick and I then went out to look at my car he said he can see where my concern is and yes it deff is a safety issue he can see that the problem will get worse and soon!! He then gave me his card with BMW of North America's number he told me to call them explain the issue and tell them that I have spoke with Rick at the Fort Myers dealership. They are suposed to contact him via email to see what he thinks and get authorization to get the issue fixed. He said he himself has no problem but BMW of North America might due to the fact that I am the second owner he did say that BMW does stand by their product and gave me a really good feeling about the situation though my hopes aren't to high!!!

Here is my info and the info he gave me and the dealerships info:

Model: 99 Mroadster
Vin: (will edit)
Status: repair is still under review no action has been taken at this time!

BMW of FORT MYERS
13880 South Tamiami Trail
Fort Myers, FL 33912

Service manager Rick Hulcha
Tel. (239) 433-8305 Ext. 2047
Fax. (239) 985-8228

BMW of North America
1-800-831-1117

"Update" 11-21-06

I went to my dealership today and met with my buddy Rick Hulcha. He specifically requested that I come in today because Donald M. MacSporran (aftersales market manager) was going to be there and he is the person that has the proper authority to give Rick the "ok" to get my car fixed and covered under warranty because my car is out of warranty.

Well they looked at my car both on the ground and on the lift only took about 30min. They actually discovered even more welds failing except on the front half of the car!! Seems the welds on the front right strut tower have torn alittle. I will be getting pics for you guys just incase you have a similar issue.

The end result is they are covering it. I take it in next week (due to the holidays) to be repaired.

The forbes reinforcement kit will follow once my car returns along with some other goodies!!

Thanks
-D

**mz.368** · 11-10-2006, 10:54 AM

I have received a second call from Girard Gibbs....seems there was an "issue" with the case that is "being resolved" so they are now proceeding with filing a class action suit.

I would definately fill out their form if you haven't already.

Who knows what, if anything, will come of it. But at least something is being done.

**mako18** · 11-10-2006, 07:15 PM

Do you have a link to this form I would be glad to fill out the form. Thanks

-D

**kevinsky18** · 11-10-2006, 11:49 PM

I'm looking at buying a 2001 Z3 in Peoria, IL. It has 20K miles on it.

I live in Canada and so it's a long way for me to go to find out after I get there that the car might have this issue.

I'm wondering if there is anyone in that area that could drop by the dealership and check the car out and report back.

**mz.368** · 11-11-2006, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by mako18

Do you have a link to this form I would be glad to fill out the form. Thanks

-D

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=585703

**MP525i** · 11-15-2006, 11:04 AM

jezz, this thread makes me very paranoid. i have a 2000 m coupe with 79k miles. i took it to bill at motorsport recycling and we checked out the rear shock mounts together. he saw no sign of any cracking. that was about 3k miles ago though.

as far as i know, i'm safe, but very nervous. since i'm a z3 n00b, i would like confirmation as to what needs to get reinforced. the rear shock mounts need reinforcing as well as the diff?

i'd like to get this taken care of before something may happen, but i don't have $1.5-$3k to throw around (getting married in june and paying for it ourselves).

any advice???

please help.

thanks.

-mike

**mz.368** · 11-15-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by MP525i

jezz, this thread makes me very paranoid. i have a 2000 m coupe with 79k miles. i took it to bill at motorsport recycling and we checked out the rear shock mounts together. he saw no sign of any cracking. that was about 3k miles ago though.

as far as i know, i'm safe, but very nervous. since i'm a z3 n00b, i would like confirmation as to what needs to get reinforced. the rear shock mounts need reinforcing as well as the diff?

i'd like to get this taken care of before something may happen, but i don't have $1.5-$3k to throw around (getting married in june and paying for it ourselves).

any advice???

please help.

thanks.

-mike

you could always pay Mr M car a visit - he is in Monmouth county. He has a (less comprehensive, but cheaper than Randy's) fix as well.

Personally, since money is tight I would just keep an eye on it for the time being. It is pervasive, but not a guarantee, imo.

**MP525i** · 11-15-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by mz.368

you could always pay Mr M car a visit - he is in Monmouth county. He has a (less comprehensive, but cheaper than Randy's) fix as well.

Personally, since money is tight I would just keep an eye on it for the time being. It is pervasive, but not a guarantee, imo.

would you know any type of symptoms i should be keeping an ear out for? i'm getting paranoid because it's getting colder and there are more rattles than usual in my car.

thanks!

-mike

**mako18** · 11-15-2006, 09:07 PM

Mine made a plastic on plastic sound almost as if the tool tray and battery tray was loose and rubbing together. Just keep checking those spot welds and the diff mount ear.....

**2kredz3** · 11-15-2006, 09:50 PM

ok, i have a 2.3 single ear stupid spare tire mount to the right. ..i have removed the spare tire since i dont need it. . .but i dont see how the dual ear kits will work on my car. . .there is no room because of this large piece that hangs down. . .none of the M cars that i have seen have this. . .so what do i do about getting a kit? i cant vary well remove that large hump that hangs down. . .help

**Randy Forbes** · 11-15-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by 2kredz3

ok, i have a 2.3 single ear stupid spare tire mount to the right. ..i have removed the spare tire since i dont need it. . .but i dont see how the dual ear kits will work on my car. . .there is no room because of this large piece that hangs down. . .none of the M cars that i have seen have this. . .so what do i do about getting a kit? i cant vary well remove that large hump that hangs down. . .help

Here's the dual ear mount on 01Silber's 3.0 Z3; his spare tire now rides in his trunk (and a AAA card in his wallet).

There is also an option to reinforce the trunkfloor/differential mount while retaining the single ear cover, and thereby keeping the spare tire carrier intact.

**2kredz3** · 11-15-2006, 11:18 PM

randy whats the price of your kit. .. i dont care to have a spare tire since i would never put in on my car anyway. . .i know the dinan kit is 500 but its not a dual ear kit. .

**taiheung** · 11-16-2006, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Forbes

There is also an option to reinforce the trunkfloor/differential mount while retaining the single ear cover, and thereby keeping the spare tire carrier intact.

Randy are you referring to reinforcing just the one diff mount?