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Thread: The definitive subframe strategy thread

  1. #1101
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    Nov 2017
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    1998 Z3 M Roadster
    Not doubting the RF kits or other out of pocket reinforcement methods, but has anyone had luck with BMW taking care of your subframe/trunk? It's a long shot but I'm contacting them before I do any out of pocket repairs.

    BMW Correspondence [1-14298260960]
    VIN: WBSCK9339WLC85320

  2. #1102
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    Oct 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    Not doubting the RF kits or other out of pocket reinforcement methods, but has anyone had luck with BMW taking care of your subframe/trunk? It's a long shot but I'm contacting them before I do any out of pocket repairs.

    BMW Correspondence [1-14298260960]
    VIN: WBSCK9339WLC85320
    I think the Forbes reinforcement is essentially the BMW approved repair. However, I doubt BMW is going to cover anything on a 20 year old car.

  3. #1103
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    Oct 2016
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    2000 BMW Z3 Coupe
    When I dropped my Coupe off last year at west german BMW with my diff hanging down onto the exhaust from my trunk floor ripping they basically had their body shop come look at it and then sent me an estimate saying they wanted 7k minimum to replace the trunk floor with a new bmw part number trunk floor and no reinforcement. This was after I had purchased the car from them less than 12 months prior for $8000 lol. I was hoping they might at least work with me on fixing it because of that, but nah they told me to pound sand. I would suggest just going elsewhere from the get go, because even before I got to that estimate everyone I talked to in service even the guys that had been there 30years claimed to have never heard of the issue on a Z3 and that they didn't believe it would happen and that it was only an issue on E46s and blah blah

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    Not doubting the RF kits or other out of pocket reinforcement methods, but has anyone had luck with BMW taking care of your subframe/trunk? It's a long shot but I'm contacting them before I do any out of pocket repairs.

    BMW Correspondence [1-14298260960]
    VIN: WBSCK9339WLC85320

  4. #1104
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    1998 M Roadster
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    Not doubting the RF kits or other out of pocket reinforcement methods, but has anyone had luck with BMW taking care of your subframe/trunk? It's a long shot but I'm contacting them before I do any out of pocket repairs.

    BMW Correspondence [1-14298260960]
    VIN: WBSCK9339WLC85320
    You can read this entire thread for a detailed history of the community's attempts at getting BMW to deal with this issue--it's the main topic of the thread as a matter of fact. Short answer: BMW refused to accept official responsibility during the warranty period, but did replace some trunk floors on the QT; these replaced trunk floors also failed. If you can get them to fix yours with the RF kit let us know (or at least let him know).

  5. #1105
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    1998 Z3 M Roadster
    Of course no luck. Dealer acknowledge it's a common issue but their corporate support will not authorize the repair.

    How much value will the RF kit add if I decide to sell my Z3 M Roadster in a few years? It's no garage queen by any means, it has 141k miles.

  6. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    How much value will the RF kit add if I decide to sell my Z3 M Roadster in a few years? It's no garage queen by any means, it has 141k miles.
    That depends, if there is damage showing now, in a few years the car will be worth very little if the problem is not addressed, so the RF kit would add value equal to greater than its cost. If there is no damage now, and the would be no damage when you go to sell, it would likely not add even its cost to the value. At 141K, you should look at it as a repair that will cause the car to hold its value, not increase its value.

  7. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    Of course no luck. Dealer acknowledge it's a common issue but their corporate support will not authorize the repair.

    How much value will the RF kit add if I decide to sell my Z3 M Roadster in a few years? It's no garage queen by any means, it has 141k miles.
    Compared to selling the car with obvious diff mount/subframe problems, I would think the repair would pay for itself and make the car much more sellable.

  8. #1108
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    Does anyone know of any good shops in Pittsburgh that can do the RF kit? I'm in the process of getting the vehicle ready and looking to have it fixed asap.

  9. #1109
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    Oct 2013
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    Augusta, GA
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    1999 Z3 M-Roadster, 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieman065 View Post
    Of course no luck. Dealer acknowledge it's a common issue but their corporate support will not authorize the repair.

    How much value will the RF kit add if I decide to sell my Z3 M Roadster in a few years? It's no garage queen by any means, it has 141k miles.
    I can only speak for myself, but having experienced trunk failure and having read many posts concerning the problem, if I were in the market to replace my Z3, I'd probably offer considerably more for a car with the RF reinforcement than one without even if there were no signs of trunk failure on the one without the reinforcement (all other things being equal). However, "considerably more" probably would not cover the full cost of having the reinforcement done.

  10. #1110
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    Oct 2016
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    2000 BMW Z3 Coupe
    Yeah me too. I wouldn't buy one without it done now unless I was getting a serious deal, especially with how old these cars are now. Its an instant indicator of the kind of owner you are dealing with as well

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHalverson View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but having experienced trunk failure and having read many posts concerning the problem, if I were in the market to replace my Z3, I'd probably offer considerably more for a car with the RF reinforcement than one without even if there were no signs of trunk failure on the one without the reinforcement (all other things being equal). However, "considerably more" probably would not cover the full cost of having the reinforcement done.

  11. #1111
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    z3
    I'd pay more for one with it done but I wouldn't pass on a car just because it hasnt been done yet

    Saying its an indicator of the kind of owner you are sort of goes two ways though doesn't it? I haven't had to reinforce ANY of my Z3's, probably because I don't drive like an ass and respect the car and am aware of the trunkfloor problem. A car that has had the repair done *may* have been driven by an aggressive driver with 0 mechanical empathy at all. So could very well be that the trunkfloor was repaired sure but what else did the leadfooted previous owner mess up in their ownership of the car?

    For that reason, I'd rather buy a car that does not show any signs of subframe issues and reinforce it myself for the same money as buying an already reinforced car.

    Going into my TENTH YEAR of providing high quality reproduction BMW fabrics!

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  12. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post
    I'd pay more for one with it done but I wouldn't pass on a car just because it hasnt been done yet

    Saying its an indicator of the kind of owner you are sort of goes two ways though doesn't it? I haven't had to reinforce ANY of my Z3's, probably because I don't drive like an ass and respect the car and am aware of the trunkfloor problem. A car that has had the repair done *may* have been driven by an aggressive driver with 0 mechanical empathy at all. So could very well be that the trunkfloor was repaired sure but what else did the leadfooted previous owner mess up in their ownership of the car?

    For that reason, I'd rather buy a car that does not show any signs of subframe issues and reinforce it myself for the same money as buying an already reinforced car.
    That's sound logic, I'd say, BB.

  13. #1113
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    Oct 2016
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    Ambler, PA
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    2000 BMW Z3 Coupe
    So basically I'm an ass (or drive like one?) because my diff mount tore from the floor?

    The problem happens from hard cornering and G forces, which a BMW sports car should certainly be meant to handle. Not really sure how respect comes into it, if anything someone who respected the car would take care of such an issue by reinforcing it and fixing the underlying problem. Fixing the car and driving it hard is definitely better than not fixing it and having to drive it gingerly because of that

    I'm not saying that just because one has had the repair done to assume the owner was awesome and took great care, just that it can be an indication of how the car was cared for. If I see someone got the randy forbes kit and has a documented proof it, they are also more than likely someone that will have other service records to show me. Now if someone just said yeah I had some welder do some reinforcements, then it would be a pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post
    I'd pay more for one with it done but I wouldn't pass on a car just because it hasnt been done yet

    Saying its an indicator of the kind of owner you are sort of goes two ways though doesn't it? I haven't had to reinforce ANY of my Z3's, probably because I don't drive like an ass and respect the car and am aware of the trunkfloor problem. A car that has had the repair done *may* have been driven by an aggressive driver with 0 mechanical empathy at all. So could very well be that the trunkfloor was repaired sure but what else did the leadfooted previous owner mess up in their ownership of the car?

    For that reason, I'd rather buy a car that does not show any signs of subframe issues and reinforce it myself for the same money as buying an already reinforced car.

  14. #1114
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    Apr 2019
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    Charleston, SC
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    '17 535, '16 X1, '01 Z3
    Guys, new here and in the market for a Z3, but after reading on this issue I'm somewhat scared on buying it. Would it be better to buy one of the older 4 cyl models to avoid this issue? or get a good late model and have it reinforced if needed?

    Thanks!

  15. #1115
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    Jan 2011
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    1998 M Roadster
    Quote Originally Posted by jcjasso View Post
    Guys, new here and in the market for a Z3, but after reading on this issue I'm somewhat scared on buying it. Would it be better to buy one of the older 4 cyl models to avoid this issue? or get a good late model and have it reinforced if needed?

    Thanks!
    You can buy an automatic 4 cylinder and never worry about it again, of course it will not go fast. You can buy a 2002 M and it would be wise to reinforce that if it's not already been done (plus replace the rod bearings if that hasn't been done). In between have it checked out, replace the subframe bushings with poly, and keep an eye one it being prepared to reinforce if ever needed.

  16. #1116
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Greater NYC Area
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    '00 z3 2.5L & '98 740iL
    Quote Originally Posted by jcjasso View Post
    Guys, new here and in the market for a Z3, but after reading on this issue I'm somewhat scared on buying it. Would it be better to buy one of the older 4 cyl models to avoid this issue? or get a good late model and have it reinforced if needed?

    Thanks!
    i was in the same boat, but decided to jump in anyway - bought a 2.5L (probably much safer than an M). i had the seller (bought via ebay) take all the necessary photos after sending him a link to these forums and telling him what i was looking for. it looked good, so i bought it.

    i've put about 80-90k on it and so far so good, not a single sign of problem. i just checked it out after parking it for a few years and will be putting it on the road within a month.

    i say do it and don't look back. just keep an eye on it and if you have the cash and motivation, get it reinforced.

    i plan on supercharging it next year just to see what happens. i mean, why not?

    the concern i have is that if mine continues to last for a long time, what do i do if / when the forbes kits are no longer available???

    question for the forum - should i just pony up and buy a kit as a fail safe? hell - i've wanted to learn to weld... should i just do it myself for fun? it'd be a nice winter project for when the car is parked for a while...
    Cheers,
    Phil

  17. #1117
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    May 2017
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    2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster
    Quote Originally Posted by jcjasso View Post
    Guys, new here and in the market for a Z3, but after reading on this issue I'm somewhat scared on buying it. Would it be better to buy one of the older 4 cyl models to avoid this issue? or get a good late model and have it reinforced if needed?

    Thanks!
    I have a 2000 M Roadster and I just pulled my trunk carpet to take a look at the welds since I purchased the car 2 years ago. All looks very sound. Will get the rear end up in the air and check the diff mounts when I get a chance.

    But the message is, no issues and a really fun car to drive.

    Would you really be happy driving a 4-cylinder (or automatic)....

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  18. #1118
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    Feb 2014
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    2002 M Coupe
    Just confirm that there is no current problem, then drive it. My M Coupe is an S54 that now has 107K miles on it. My mechanic checks it over every time he sees it, and there are no signs of problems as of now. I've got a Forbes kit on the shelf in case I ever need it, but so far so good. I finally gave in at 100K miles and had him replace the rod bearings (a "known" S54 issue), which actually looked quite good with minimal scuffing and no rotation; so much for that issue!

    Marty

  19. #1119
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    Oct 2016
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    Fwiw though it’s a lot less labor to get it done beforehand, I wish I had. My 2.8 floor let go suddenly at around 150ish

  20. #1120
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
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    Northern Virginia
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    1998 Z3M roadster
    New member... I m looking at buying an S52 Z3M Roadster... because when test driving one last year it put a sh*t eating grin on my face!!

    Question - how much does Randy's kit cost? What are typical installation costs?
    Thanks, Mike

  21. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenbimmer View Post
    New member... I m looking at buying an S52 Z3M Roadster... because when test driving one last year it put a sh*t eating grin on my face!!

    Question - how much does Randy's kit cost? What are typical installation costs?
    Thanks, Mike
    About $500 for the kit and 2500-3000 install depending on extras, shop, etc.

    Oh, the grin does not fade by the way--well worth the trouble.
    Last edited by Mr Bingley; 07-19-2019 at 10:44 PM.

  22. #1122
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    Thanks!!

  23. #1123
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    Oct 2016
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    2000 BMW Z3 Coupe
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bingley View Post
    About $500 for the kit and 2500-3000 install depending on extras, shop, etc.

    Oh, the grin does not fade by the way--well worth the trouble.
    4 years in and I love mine more every day despite spending thousands on the subframe lol, the grin just gets bigger




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  24. #1124
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    Follow-on question... I have been looking here for the answer and can't find it... Where can I find pics of what the car should look like underneath (up.on a lift) if Randy's kit has been installed? Thanks.

  25. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenbimmer View Post
    Follow-on question... I have been looking here for the answer and can't find it... Where can I find pics of what the car should look like underneath (up.on a lift) if Randy's kit has been installed? Thanks.
    Try searching for Randy Forbes. He has thousands of photos of the installs he has done and you can find many of them in his posts.
    2002 M Roadster, Steel Gray Metailic, Gray Nappa Leather, Black Soft Top, Steel Gray Metailic Hard Top, TC Kline Double Adj Shocks with H&R Springs, Stromung Exhaust, SSR Type C Wheels. Looking for a new home.

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