m635csi vs later US m6

[Russell328is]

Drool! Check out this m635csi with bizarrely low miles on ebay.

I'm seriously in the market for an m635csi with low (but not _that_ low) miles, I've found a few sites that appear to have them, but can anyone offer advice on where to find one of these? If I can find an '87 or '88 <50k mile US version M6, is that a better idea? I don't mind paying to maintain a finicky car I love, and it's not my going to be my daily driver, but a more pampered weekend car, but I don't want to absolutely break the bank.

Any advice appreciated, thanks.

[bimmerman1982]

Wow that thing is awesome, didn't some of them come with a wine cooler in the backseat?

[The Beastmaster]

Howdy Russell! How have you been?

As for the difference in US v.s. Euro, the Euro is lighter as it has less power accessories such as power seats and the car also has 286 hp. The US model has 256 hp, but with a chip and cam sprocket, can meet or exceed the Euro hp rating.

There are other stuff, but the hp and weight are the biggest differences. I believe there is also a difference in the timing chain.

[Slash]

eh chip and cam sprocket help...but wont get you to 286.

ive got conforti chip, dinan cam sprocket, and a track pipe and im at 230 whp....i figure its around 270 now...

the US M6 is heavy.....3600 lbs i believe.

http://www.tuningpt.com/store/miscsc...6/article6.jpg

[The Beastmaster]

According to Dinan's site, the chip and cam gear should put out 291 hp on a US car. I have no reason to doubt it as Dinan's #s seems to be pretty accurate. My 540iA should have 305 hp with the Dinan mods and I pulled 243 at the wheels. This comes to 306 at the crank using 20% drivetrain loss so I think they are spot on.

[///M Blitz]

Drool! Check out this m635csi with bizarrely low miles on ebay.

I'm seriously in the market for an m635csi with low (but not _that_ low) miles, I've found a few sites that appear to have them, but can anyone offer advice on where to find one of these? If I can find an '87 or '88 <50k mile US version M6, is that a better idea? I don't mind paying to maintain a finicky car I love, and it's not my going to be my daily driver, but a more pampered weekend car, but I don't want to absolutely break the bank.

Any advice appreciated, thanks.

This has been beaten to death on Roadfly, so might want to do a search there also.

First, the Euro catalyzed cars are identical to the U.S. cars in weight and power (in Euro they are known as "Highline"). So Euro, although everyone understands, is a misnomer. All the U.S. cars were catalyzed and had 256hp and 245ft/lb. torque.

The non-cat cars had 286hp and 253ft/lb torque. The latter is a near match for the catalyzed cars. So, from zero to about 100mph they are dead even. Helping this was the fact that the catalyzed cars had a 3:91 final drive ratio versus the 3:73 in the non-cat cars.

The non-cat cars are lighter by about 100 lbs. and had a single row chain that has a nasty habit of snapping. The catalyzed cars all had a double row chain. One problem with the non-cat cars is federalization. Many of them were hacked and won't meet U.S. emissions, particularly in California. Unfortunately, you might not know until you are stuck with it.

As far as the U.S. cars, the 88 models are more desirable because of the smaller and sleeker bumpers. Also, they don't have the leather dash (usually cracks).

[Slash]

According to Dinan's site, the chip and cam gear should put out 291 hp on a US car. I have no reason to doubt it as Dinan's #s seems to be pretty accurate. My 540iA should have 305 hp with the Dinan mods and I pulled 243 at the wheels. This comes to 306 at the crank using 20% drivetrain loss so I think they are spot on.

yeah dinan says that, conforti claims with chip alone it'll get it to 290 but unfortunately thats just not the case. with conforti chip (conforti gives more than a dinan chip) and dinan cam sprocket i was at 216 whp and 211 wtor.

i took off the cats and put a track pipe on there and now have 230 whp and 222 wtor.

the cam sprocket really helps with the low end torque. as any M6 owner knows, below 4k rpm the thing is sluggish as hell. the cam gear helps with that and makes torque availiable sooner, although at 4-4.5k it's still like an on off switch....oh well.

and m blitz...i am extremely jealous of your collection of cars!

[///M Blitz]

yeah dinan says that, conforti claims with chip alone it'll get it to 290 but unfortunately thats just not the case. with conforti chip (conforti gives more than a dinan chip) and dinan cam sprocket i was at 216 whp and 211 wtor.

i took off the cats and put a track pipe on there and now have 230 whp and 222 wtor.

the cam sprocket really helps with the low end torque. as any M6 owner knows, below 4k rpm the thing is sluggish as hell. the cam gear helps with that and makes torque availiable sooner, although at 4-4.5k it's still like an on off switch....oh well.

and m blitz...i am extremely jealous of your collection of cars!

Thanks.

On the horsepower issue, remember that Dinan did all their testing back when there was 95-97 octane premium fuel, while you might have had 91 or 93 octane at best when you did your run.

I got slightly higher numbers than yours on a recent dyno run with 91 octane (My M6 has the Euro header), which was disappointing. I spoke with the Dinan guys and they said to re-run it with at least 95 octane. I went back with a blend somewhere around 95-97 octane and voila around 310 hp at the crank.

[Slash]

hmmm that might be the problem.....all my dino's have been with 91 octane...
where can i even get 93 or 95?

[///M Blitz]

hmmm that might be the problem.....all my dino's have been with 91 octane...
where can i even get 93 or 95?

I assure you that's your problem. The loss between 91 and 95 octane is at least 20 horsepower. What I did is I bought Union 76 racing fuel -- I think it's 103 octane -- and blended it with 91 octane. If memory serves me right something like half-half gives you 95-96 octane.

Try it, you'll like it. :-)

[jcsomerset]

The euro M88/3 motors are 10.5:1 CR Vs the american S38B35's that are 9.7:1 CR.

Further - on the timing chain - the Euro M88/3 motors had single coil valve springs that were prone to breaking.

If you get a euro M635 - I'd want to check to see that these upgrades have been performed. (labor on the springs especially will be expensive)

for ALL S38 motors - The timing chain tensioner and guide rail need to be replaced for engine longevity. The guide rail can crack free and launch up into the intake cam - grenading the engine. That'd be about an 8 grand rebuild just for a stock engine. No matter what mileage car you get - check on that for sure.

on the car you posted about - Engine bay is extremely dirty for acar with that low mileage. Rims are scuffed up too - .

The euro Rims were recalled for Stress fractures.

The 87's with the leather dashes were a cosmetic recall due to warping- some owners took them back in - some didn't.. My owner didn't. I'm seriously considering having the leather redone.. it just looks that much better in my opinion - but one in good shape right now is hard to find - especially an original one.

[Russell328is]

> Howdy Russell! How have you been?

Great, good to see a familiar face! I miss this place, and my bmw. I spend a fair amount of time on audiworld.com, and have found that audi and tt folks are just as helpful, nice, and knowledgeable about their cars as people here.

I have noticed the more enthusiast sellers specifically talking about the valve-spring and timing-chain related upgrades, so perhaps I'll look for that.

I guess my original question is still unanswered, though -- in terms of ease of use, headache, expense, etc. is it better to just look for a clean '88 US M6, or are federalized earlier cars with the right work already done not a problem? I've had experience with a 1987 euro Mercedes 500sel. There were good and bad things about it, but from the perspective of looks, power, and the spartan interior style that only euro models seem to have, it was definitely a winner and I miss it.

For the record, here's another car I'd consider buying. It's
another, later euro M6.

[///M Blitz]

> Howdy Russell! How have you been?

Great, good to see a familiar face! I miss this place, and my bmw. I spend a fair amount of time on audiworld.com, and have found that audi and tt folks are just as helpful, nice, and knowledgeable about their cars as people here.

I have noticed the more enthusiast sellers specifically talking about the valve-spring and timing-chain related upgrades, so perhaps I'll look for that.

I guess my original question is still unanswered, though -- in terms of ease of use, headache, expense, etc. is it better to just look for a clean '88 US M6, or are federalized earlier cars with the right work already done not a problem? I've had experience with a 1987 euro Mercedes 500sel. There were good and bad things about it, but from the perspective of looks, power, and the spartan interior style that only euro models seem to have, it was definitely a winner and I miss it.

For the record, here's another car I'd consider buying. It's
another, later euro M6.

Ok here is the bottom line. Buy the best car you can afford, U.S. or Euro. I repeat, just buy the best one you can find; don't target one or the other.

The motors, transmission, etc. are nearly bulletproof. The only worry is the single row chain on the M88 and the plastic timing chain components on both.

On the bodies, the big worry on the U.S. and Highline cars is the self-leveling suspension, which is good for about 50K mi.

Make sure you have a complete pre-purchase check up from a reputable BMW shop that knows the 6ers and the M88 (non-cat) and S38 (cat) motors. Make sure they assess the quality of the federalization if you end up with a Euro.

Parts are expensive, but there are places like Bavarian that sell OEM or OE stuff for a fraction of the dealer's price.

Oh yeah, get a Bentley's (e28) manual and start doing some of the work yourself. I did and find it to be quite peaceful. Also, my wife enjoys having me out of her way, but close enough to scream at if she has to.

BTW, there is something not quite right about the car in your photo. If it has self-leveling I would bet it's shot. If not...

[Russell328is]

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. Keen observation; I thought I noticed the rear suspension looked a little high in that pic of the black car. Ekh. The problem is that I live in NYC, and I have an excellent BMW specialist here, but the cars I'm finding are hundreds of miles away, it seems. Then again, I am not in a hurry at all, and shpping is fun at any rate.

I think it's weird that there seem to be 3 price points for (working) M6's. $14k, $19k, and $34k. I can't really tell the difference between cars in the lower two, and the people asking for $34k are selling cars with 20k miles, etc. and that seems a little odd.

[///M Blitz]

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. Keen observation; I thought I noticed the rear suspension looked a little high in that pic of the black car. Ekh. The problem is that I live in NYC, and I have an excellent BMW specialist here, but the cars I'm finding are hundreds of miles away, it seems. Then again, I am not in a hurry at all, and shpping is fun at any rate.

I think it's weird that there seem to be 3 price points for (working) M6's. $14k, $19k, and $34k. I can't really tell the difference between cars in the lower two, and the people asking for $34k are selling cars with 20k miles, etc. and that seems a little odd.

Mileage seems to be the reason for the price break points. The $14k cars will normally have between 100 and 150K mi. Those around $20K normally will have 75 to 99K (100K being the mental barrier). Those going for $25-$35K are the cars with well under 50K.

Unless you are a collector or a bragger, I don't see the point in paying $30K for a car with extremely low miles. Many of those cars have original stuff that after 17 or 18 years is breaking down due to father time. This coming from a guy with a car with 32K original miles.

I just did a complete restoration of the undercarrriage on my car and was amazed at how many things (mostly rubber stuff) had deteriorated to the point were they would have to have been replaced anyway. On the positive side, I did all the timing chain stuff and the parts in my car looked as good as the replacement parts.

BTW, if you are serious about buying a car it's easy to find a good mechanic wherever the car is. Either post here or on Roadfly and ask for referrals. If you find a car in Southern California, contact me. I know several excellent mechanics.

Good luck.

[Russell328is]

Mileage seems to be the reason for the price break points. The $14k cars will normally have between 100 and 150K mi. Those around $20K normally will have 75 to 99K (100K being the mental barrier). Those going for $25-$35K are the cars with well under 50K.

Unless you are a collector or a bragger, I don't see the point in paying $30K for a car with extremely low miles. Many of those cars have original stuff that after 17 or 18 years is breaking down due to father time. This coming from a guy with a car with 32K original miles.

I just did a complete restoration of the undercarrriage on my car and was amazed at how many things (mostly rubber stuff) had deteriorated to the point were they would have to have been replaced anyway. On the positive side, I did all the timing chain stuff and the parts in my car looked as good as the replacement parts.

BTW, if you are serious about buying a car it's easy to find a good mechanic wherever the car is. Either post here or on Roadfly and ask for referrals. If you find a car in Southern California, contact me. I know several excellent mechanics.

Good luck.

Thanks. I see your point about deterioration. I've seen a couple cars here that appear to have been rebuilt/restored but have pretty high mileage. Are you saying high mileage is okay if requisite refurbishment has been done? I had been thinking of low miles because I bought my present car when it was out of warranty due to age (a 1999 build bought in late 2003) but only had 7,100 miles but was cheaper than others with 60k (granted, I had to go to South Dakota to get it). It's now 6 years old with 25k and looks and feels brand new. I imagine that in 20 years, though, a car has more opportunities to deteriorate, but I'd love to get a low mileage car that didn't feel its age. In this case, I've been looking for cars under 70k miles. Restored or rebuilt cars in that range may feel the same, I suppose.

[The Beastmaster]

One thing I noticed about cars. Things tend to go between 50k - 70k. After that, most of those components have been changed.

I think the most important thing about a M6 or M635 is maintenance records or receipts of parts purchases if the owner performs his own work. Without those records, it's a crap shoot as to how the car was cared for, especially if there were multiple owners.

[///M Blitz]

One thing I noticed about cars. Things tend to go between 50k - 70k. After that, most of those components have been changed.

I think the most important thing about a M6 or M635 is maintenance records or receipts of parts purchases if the owner performs his own work. Without those records, it's a crap shoot as to how the car was cared for, especially if there were multiple owners.

Bingo!!!! Within reason, pay less attention to the mileage than the maintenance records. I have three folders full of everything I've ever done to my car. If I were selling it (I'm not), the buyer would be able to see exactly what has been replaced and/or upgraded.

[Russell328is]

When I move at the end of the month, it will be time to start looking in earnest.

[Russell328is]

I'm back on this hunt a little, and have found a 1985 euro M6 with 120k miles that is local to me in NYC. The car appears to have been very well maintained by BMW dealers and is in stellar shape (on the outside at least, inside is worn but not bad looking). Brake bomb was replaced, new shocks, an he has all receipts going back to the time of import to the US (which may only be about 5-6 years). The price, $14,500, is steep for this mileage but not necessarily more than I'd want to pay for a car that was genuinely well maintained and looks as good as this one does.

Does anyone (a) know this car http://************/qu7g9, or (b) have any advice? I'm warming up to the high mileage idea, but what will this car be like in a few years when it has 150k+ miles on it? 200k?

[Russell328is]

Here's the carfax, not that helpful:


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Blue Arrow This vehicle has had at least one owner. The first title for this vehicle was reported to CARFAX by a Tennessee DMV in 2000.
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Salvage Title Loss Due To Fire Title
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Rebuilt/Reconstructed Title Hail Damage Title
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Date: Mileage:
09/22/2000 97,000
10/12/2001 107,000


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Estimated start date of warranty: 10/04/2000
Last reading reported on 10/12/2001: 107,000 miles
Today's Date: March 14, 2006

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Date:
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09/22/2000 97,000 Tennessee
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
10/04/2000 Tennessee
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Nashville, TN
Title #60728347
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Registration issued or renewed
10/12/2001 107,000 Tennessee
Inspection Station
Failed emissions inspection
10/18/2001 Tennessee
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
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