I have a friend who's parting out his e46 competition package m3. He's giving me dibs on the brakes.
Will the calipers and rotors fit?
Any thoughts? I'm looking at around $500 for the whole thing. Good idea?
With some custom fabbed brackets you could prolly get them to work. Rogue used to sell a BBK for the e36 that utilized e46 rotors, etc. . . .Originally Posted by Ubertino
At the end of the day, unless you just want to have custom one-off brakes on your car, it would be a huge waste.
Garrett
why would it be a huge waste? he'd be getting a factory quality BBK for like 1/4th the price...
why would it be a huge waste? he'd be getting a factory quality BBK for like 1/4th the price...
A huge waste? I've put 3500 miles on my competition brakes in my new ZCP M3. When I stepped back into my E36 M3 my first immediate thought was,
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY BRAKES? No comparison...
I can only imagine how much better they would be in a car weighing 200 pounds less...
Wow, those ZCP brakes must be INSANE!!!!! And no doubt - BBK's are KEWL.
You can do a search, so I'm not gonna get into a big discussion re the merits of a BBK (especially for the street), but the limiting factor for OE e36 M3 brakes is tire adhesion. In other words: the system is powerful enough to EASILY engage ABS on good surfaces. With anything short of racing slicks, more brake power does nothing but engage ABS - and does NOT reduce stopping distances.
I personally would not go through the trouble/expense of getting custom brackets fabbed-up (and who knows what else is required) to get stronger/bigger brakes on the car. To me it would be a waste of time/money/effort.
A BBK will be the last mod I do to the car, if ever.
Many racers run OE calipers/rotors. Brake power is not something the M3 lacks. Any idea where the OE set-up "came from"? Try the e34 M5, a 340hp 3800lb car.
Garrett
Sigh... Not this again. Too bad it's old news. Brings back visions of JP and Suzy's list...
Think what you want. I'm not saying the M3 lacks braking power at all.
I'm just saying that the ZCP brakes are a superior set up than the stock 12 year old E36 M3 brakes. That's all. Reread my post.
If he can get it to work for $500, and he doesn't feel like upgrading anything else, I say go for it.
I wouldn't pay $2k for it like I would NEVER get a $3000 BBK...
And by the way, the ZCP brakes (or E46 M3 brakes for that matter) are insane coming from an E36 M3.
Really, they are. It's not even close. And I'm rarely impressed.
I thought the brake department was the one area where the E36 would hold its own. How wrong...
Interesting opinion, considering that most see a BBK as "needed" for e46 M3 track cars, and BMW saw the need to beef-up the brakes for their "comp package".Originally Posted by rommelrules
Garrett
I make no assertions as to the merits of the ZCP brakes on the track.
Maybe they suck for all I know. Take my opinion as relevant only to the street. My ZCP is a DD (or will be when it comes back from Europe...) and will probably see no track use in the immediate future. That's why I still have my E36 M3. But frankly, I'm debating whether to keep it or not. On the street at least, the difference is astronomical...
I don't understand what you are saying. What exactly is "astronomical"? Are you saying that the stopping distance from 60 to zero is greatly reduced vs. an e36, or that with the e46 you can engage ABS with your pinky toe, or what?Originally Posted by rommelrules
IIRC, the stopping distances for the e36 and e46 are VERY similar and the e36 actually stops shorter (which would make sense considering the e46 weighs more and has the same small 225mm contact patches up front).
Maybe your e36 is in disrepair and has a bad braking/suspension system and/or old tires? From a technical standpoint, what exactly do you attribute the "astronomical" difference in braking to? Because with 225mm street tires up front, an e46 just is not going to stop "astronomically" better than an e36.
Garrett
You're right. You don't understand what I am saying.Originally Posted by Mad Dog 20/20
My reference "the difference is astronomical" is an observation on the car itself as a whole,
pertaining to the prospect of keeping my E36 M3. I think it's pretty clear...
However, there is a big difference. In the way the brakes bite, and in how they feel. I have been driving European freeways for the past three weeks making repeated stops from 130 MPH. At those speeds the difference between the two setups is, while not astronomical, significant.
There are many cars that have similar braking distances.Originally Posted by Mad Dog 20/20
Once behind the wheel, the differences between their respective brake setups
can be astronomical. Braking distances don't tell the whole story.
Just like 0-60 times don't tell the whole story. Are we magazine racing...?
My E36 is certainly not in a state of disrepair. Brand new SO3's up front too.Originally Posted by Mad Dog 20/20
From a technical standpoint? I don't care to explain anything from a technical standpoint. Go drive a ZCP M3 for a couple of weeks and report back.
Not everything is explained with an Excel spreadsheet in life.
The E46 M3 has delightful brakes and has superior brakes both in feel and bite than my E36 M3 ever did, even when it was new.
Let me reiterate something here. The E36 M3 has phenomenal brakes too.
It's just that BMW has taken something and made it better...
Last edited by rommelrules; 06-01-2005 at 06:05 PM.
Oh, i see. thanks for the clarity.
If a car gives the sensation of stopping MUCH worse than another (to the point that the driver wonders "what the hell happenned to the brakes!?"), then this SHOULD be reflected in the respective stopping distances of the vehicles.
Repeated stops from 130mph? That is a track-like scenario. From all acounts, the standard e46 M3 brakes suck under such circumstances and fade very badly. I don't doubt that the comp package brakes are superior in repeated stops from 130. For repeated 130mph stops, any BBK would be better than an OE set-up with street pads.
If dude is doing repeated street stops from 130 in the US, then he needs a BBK - i agree. He also needs a full roll cage and a helmet equipped with a Hans device.
Last edited by Mad Dog 20/20; 06-01-2005 at 06:29 PM.
Garrett
Well, I can tell you I was not overly impressed with the E46 M3 one of my studentshad last year, he was in the A run group. Most of the club racers I know in the E46 complain about the brakes. My E36 in it's current state is in need of more brake. After my instructor run group my front brakes will smoke nicely for about five minutes. And I run out of brake ability due to heat soak, with Hawk Blue race pads and ducts. One of my next upgrades will be a BBK from Stoptech well under 3k all you need is the front kit cost around 1800.
The E46 is a nice car but a properly modified E36 is just as good. I chased a few E46 cars down last week end.
Gary Gray
If you can take it apart you can make it faster!
sounds like we need a physics lesson here. a big brake kit will help dissipate more heat, and the larger rotor makes an easier grab for the pads vs. a smaller diameter stock rotor....
fyi - e36 and e46 use the same exact front pad. or at least in the line of the axxis ultimates. there is no difference between e46 and e36 front pads. http://www.mmotorwerks.com/products/...hp/II=110/PA=0
not sure how the zcp brakes differ, but i cant imagine them being that far superior. unless bmw decided to use a massive rotor an 4 pot calipers. but i highly doubt that.
i agree 100% with mad dog about a bbk being purely a show mod on a street car. now, if the car reguarly sees track time on race tires, then that might merit a bbk, but not really. the only way i could justify buying a bbk is if i was competing, and saving 1/10th of a second mattered. there is no reason to be the king of late braking in hpde. track pads with stock rotors are plenty good for 99% of the e36 m3's out there (the 1% being the racers)
i also want to add that zcp brakes (quality aside) may have a larger or smaller piston size. which would mean that the e36 m3 master cylinder may or may not be adequate for the job. i know someone but a UUC bbk on a 318 and the pedal feel was horrible, and actually stoped worse than stock (or so he says). ended up having to switch to an m3 master cylinder in order to get the pedal feel back, and get the car to stop the way it should.
I dont really want to get into a topic like this again, but I believe you are sorta confusing braking "feel" with actual braking performance. Both cars are more than capable of locking up the front wheels at high speeds, and both cars stop in very similar distances from whatever speed. Both have similar performance. Feel, for the average driver, is mostly about how much the power assist to the brakes 'helps' out. I have no doubt that the e46 m3 brakes could be more confidence inspiring or whatever, but I'll never feel that my e36 m3 brakes are inadequate because of it.
Personally I run with the brake booster disconnected. Thats what they should really "feel" like
-Peter
Current toy: none
Past cars: 88 M3, 99 M3 x2, 04 M3, 91 NSX, 06 S2000, 01 911TT, 06 Exige, 00 NSX, 04 GT3
Bottom line: for US street use, a BBK is completely useless. Even if it costs $50, its still useless. Very cool though. And I don't say that with sarcasm - i like "cool" just like the next guy. "Cool" is good.
Brake ducting greatly enhances a brake system's ability to dissipate heat. Carbon fiber backing plates with CF ductwork is very cool stuff, too. Useless on the street, though.
BTW, an interesting tid bit: the new M5/6 has relatively simple/basic 2 piston brake calipers. When asked why not some crazy 8 piston ceramic BBK techno toure de force? A BMW engineer responded: "because its useless on a street car".
Garrett
why is your friend parting out such a new car?
Wheels in Sig are SSR GT3's 19" E46 M3 fitment. Dinan E46 M3 Suspension. Pic thanks to Kyle K.
Interesting- after all that debate a question for me...
He got tagged pretty bad with enough damage to the b pillar to total the car. They could fix it, but they would have to special order parts from Germany and it would take eight weeks in the body shop. Tagged in the rear passenger side while pulling out of a gas station by a teenager driving a suburban while talking on the cell phone. Ain't life a bitch. Laguna Seca Blue.
Anyways, he's sold the engine, tranny, most of the bits and ends, and offered me dibs on the brakes at $300 for rears and $400 for the fronts. After reading this, I talked to a machine shop and they can get creative for around $300 or so, but they can't guarantee heat reliability without tempering by an outside company for another $500.
I'm probably going to get some e36 m3 euro floating rotors instead- I do highly spirited driving and the occasional parking lot car club event thingie. I'm tired of rotor warp, and that's about it.
Thanks for all the replies, I'm a bit overwhelmed
I'd like to point out one critically important thing here that may have been overlooked: brake pads and their condition.
Pads are just about the most critical part of brake "feel". The pads on your E36 may be a milder compound, or may just be old or "cooked out" which will change the braking response.
If you switched to a pad like the Hawk HP-Plus, you might find your E36 brakes suddenly have as much (or even more) initial bite as the E46 brakes. Vice-versa is also true... the pads on the E46 can get tired and the brakes won't feel the same.
Bottom line: if you're simply looking to improve your E36's brake feel in terms of initial bite, try the Hawk HP+ ($105 front, $90 rear) or Satisfied GrandSport 6 ($68 front, $53 rear), available at TireRack (www.tirerack.com). Certainly a viable experiment that may save you quite a bit of money instead of buying those E46 brakes.
- Rob
Come on Rob..Give the business to one of your dealers..www.understeer.com has great prices on Hawk products.
DOH! Totally forgot.Originally Posted by BMLRacer
Definitely ask Chris what he can do on pricing, plus you'll get fantastic personalized service.
- Rob
Last edited by Rob Levinson; 06-03-2005 at 12:42 AM.
you mean autocross?Originally Posted by Ubertino
careful with the contact patch talk now...Originally Posted by Mad Dog 20/20
DING DING DING! We have a winner.Originally Posted by GotBHP?
Michael McCoy TRM
Do I get a prize???Originally Posted by techno550
-Peter
Current toy: none
Past cars: 88 M3, 99 M3 x2, 04 M3, 91 NSX, 06 S2000, 01 911TT, 06 Exige, 00 NSX, 04 GT3
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