95 M3 Offset LCAB
96+ Centered LCAB
I am still debating which LCAB to get. I am definitely going to get new LCA’s but can't decide whether or not to get the 95 M3 offset LCAB or the centered 96+ LCAB. I know the offset will increase my caster which will improve my steering response and straight line stability but are there any drawbacks?
I know a lot of you guys are running both set ups so I am interested in your opinion’s on the pro's and con's on either set up. Thanks.
Oh and where can I go to get the best prices?
bump
If you are getting new control arms then it doesn't matter which you get as long as you use the corresponding arm. 95 arms with offset bushings. or 96 + arms with centered bushings. I have 95 arms and bushings. I love the better steering feel. The difference between the two setups is in the arm. In '95 they used the offset bushing to change caster. In '96 they built the change into the arm. PM me with any other questions. Ryan
Ryan
92 328i TCD TrackTurbo stage 1
02 325iT SportWagon
00 528iT SportWagon
I believe one has an extra part for autobahn speeds, helps keep the steering straight, I forgot which one though.
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So I can't install M3 bushings with non M3 control arms?? I know people have put the 96+ M3 centered on non M3 control arms.
I tend to go against the grain on this one...
Most people seem to subscribe to the "more is better" theory and just put the offset bushings on because more caster is better than less caster, right???
The centered bushings will give you better turn-in response, enough of a reason for me to switch back to them after I experimented with offset ones.
Mac
Aluminum?Originally Posted by Daved
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The E30 M3 arms are aluminum. Lighter weight but different geometry than the E36 M3. Also bend easier. Plus the much higher cost. There is no special part on the M3 parts for extra stability at speed. You can use the solid centered bushing without any other change and you will get stock front end specs with a very firm and positive positioning of the control arm. Nothing wrong there. If you want a change, I agree with the above poster who went from offset back to centered. If you are only changing the bushing go with centered. If you want some of the M3 front end bonuses you need to change the arm and the bushing and like my earlier post said use 95 arms with offset bushings and 96+ arms with centered bushings. The rest of the front end geometry in an M3 is in the bottom of the strut and hub assembly. Plus the strut mounted sway bars.
Ryan
Ryan
92 328i TCD TrackTurbo stage 1
02 325iT SportWagon
00 528iT SportWagon
1992-1999 non-M E36 control arms are exactly the same shape as 95 M3 control arms.
What's DIFFERENT about the 95 M3 control arms compared to regular E36 control arms is that they have solid, non-replaceable ball joints. That's it. They even have the mounting point for non-M swaybar brackets, they're essentially from the same mold.
As far as the rest of the front suspension, of course the '95 M3 has firmer struts and stiffer, shorter springs, swaybar mounting on the strut housing, and offset to the rear strut hats. This results in a bit more caster, a wider track, and a slightly longer wheelbase (M3 wheels are a bit further forward than regular E36 wheels) along with less body roll.
But remember, the offset bushings are designed to work with the offset strut hats and lower stock ride height of the M3. Running offset bushings won't buy you much if you don't lower the car a bit and don't have the offset hats.
For 96+ M3's, they revised the shape of the control arm use a centered (but solid) control arm bushing, and the strut hats are offset to both the rear AND the side. This provides much of the same effect as the offset bushing (more caster, wider track), but is a bit more prone to understeer (partly because the 96+ cars came with a staggered front/rear tire setup), and a bit less prone to "bump steer" (also partly because the front tires went from 235 to 225). The centered bushing also wears better than the offset, since it has an equal amount of material on either side, and has a slightly better ride under some conditions due to that as well.
If you're just looking to tighten up the front suspension on a regular E36, you can replace the stock semi-solid control arm bushings with stock 96+ solid bushings, and run the '95 M3 or regular E36 control arms. This is a tradeoff though, since the solid bushing will provide a rougher ride, but it doesn't change your stock geometry
What you DO NOT want to do is use 96 M3 control arms without using 96 M3 strut hats. Nor do you want to use offset bushings with 96 control arms/strut hats.
Once again, as far as the '95 M3 control arm itself, the only benefit it has over a regular E36 control arm is the solid ball joints. Less "play" in the front suspension, a bit more durability if you're tossing the car around a lot, but once again at the price of a rougher ride.
The aluminum E30 M3 control arms are in the same category, solid ball joints, and a couple pounds lighter per side, but same dimensions. Not something you'd really NEED on the street unless you like the bling, and they are more prone to bending on a curb or severe pothole impact than the steel arms. But they're NOT fragile, they have roughly the same real lifespan as a steel control arm under normal conditions (remember, all E36's and E90's use aluminum control arms, as well as the new 5, 6, and 7 cars). The biggest drawback to the aluminum arms is that they are 2x the cost of M3 arms, and 4x the cost of E36 arms, while providing very little real benefit on the street or track.
93 325is - total M3 conversion and more - Dinan SC kit - RMS aftercooler and tuning - 395rwhp on 91 octane.
"....She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself." -Han Solo
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why is that?What you DO NOT want to do is use 96 M3 control arms without using 96 M3 strut hats. Nor do you want to use offset bushings with 96 control arms/strut hats.
I've been researching the past few days and came to a conclusion that the 96+ centered bushings aren't solid like the 95 offset bushings but still alot better than the regular E36 ones; Both 95/96+ will have the same offset/caster in the end, one using a different geometry and set back strut hats, while the other, a offset bushing.
If you only use the 95 M control arms(same as E36 arms) with 96+ centered bushings you will have not added a M3 like caster/offset to your E36, although you will need a drop in the suspension to notice it when you change to the M3 geometry.
So the best option would be the 96+ M control arms and M centered bushings along with the 96+ M strut hats, anyone care to add something that I might be missing?
Last edited by Soup Nazi; 05-15-2005 at 03:42 PM.
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what do the strut hats do?
Ok I think I am going to get the Meyle full metal ball joint LCA from www.bavauto.com and then use the 96+ M3 centered LCAB (The LCA are about $50 a piece cheaper).
Will I need to change the strut hats with this setup? I want to gain a little bit of caster so will this setup have a similar affect on my caster as seen on the 96+ M3's? Let me know if this set up will work or not. Thanks.
Here are the part numbers from bavauto.com
96+ M3 LCAB: ($60 for 2)
31 12 9 069 035
Meyle LCA: ($89 a piece)
31 12 1 140957M
31 12 1 140958M
I want to order these parts this week, let me know if this is the correct setup or not. Thanks.
Originally Posted by PJ Steamboat
To gain caster you need to buy the meyle CA with the 95M offset bushing, if you just buy the things in your list you will be keeping the stock geometry; You can also buy the 96+M CA, strut hats and centered bushings and it will add caster the same way the offset bushing will.
On a sidenote here, the meyle CA ball joint looks extremely solid, I don't know if it having a no buffer in the ball joint is an improvement over the stock, anyone with experience care to chim in here?
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Thanks Soup Nazi, I think by going with the solid metal LCA and the centered M3 bushings, it will really tighten up the front end with out having to change the geometry. The benefit of running the M3 control arms is that they have the solid metal bushings but this forces you to change a bunch of other stuff to change the geometry. The Meyle LCA are almost half the price of the M3's but providing basically the same benefits.
It is going to run me about $260 shipped for everything.
I plan on ordering today, are there anymore inputs? Thanks.
so to increase the caster you need to get the m3 strut hats with the 96+ control arms and bushings and this will create the same geometry as the m3?
is there any harm in only using the 96+ m3 control arms and bushings without the strut hats?
Last edited by byron; 05-18-2005 at 06:27 AM.
anybodyso to increase the caster you need to get the m3 strut hats with the 96+ control arms and bushings and this will create the same geometry as the m3?
is there any harm in only using the 96+ m3 control arms and bushings without the strut hats?
Yes it will create the same geo as the M3.Originally Posted by byron
This is only good if you have a drop similar to the M3, otherwise it will be too much caster which means too much oversteer which isn't very good.
It will create too much caster, which unless you're slammed on race coilovers to even out the caster it will do you more harm than good.is there any harm in only using the 96+ m3 control arms and bushings without the strut hats?
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do h&r sport springs lower the car enough to reduce the caster?It will create too much caster, which unless you're slammed on race coilovers to even out the caster it will do you more harm than good.
Not enough for you to mix the 96+M control arms without the 96+M strut hats.Originally Posted by byron
It will increase the neg camber for you to do the 95M control arms with offset bushings or 96+M with hats, CA's and centered bushings.
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I ordered the 93 Meyle LCA's and 96 M3 LCAB's, once I get these and my coilovers on I'll let you guys know what I think.
so strut hats correct the excessive caster and make everything work properly?
how easy is it to install strut hats?
sorry for all the questions but i am trying to learn
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