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Thread: I am slow at the autocross...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    Los Angeles, CA
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    used to have an e36 M3

    Unhappy I am slow at the autocross...

    Don't get me wrong, I am having a blast out there. It's just that at some point it would be nice to be a little more competitive.

    Fast times seemed to be around 45 seconds or so for the best drivers with sticky tires. My e36 M3 is totally stock, running the OE mxx3 pilots, and I couldn't quite crack 50 s. I have the feeling that a good time for my car would be around 47 s, but I won't know until the results are posted in a week or two.

    Next time I go I'm going to try and get someone fast to go out for a ride with me, and maybe catch a ride, too, if possible. Is there anything else I can do to get better at this? Just 4 runs per event doesn't seem like enough to learn very quickly.

    Saw Neil's JC cam kitted m coupe, but didn't get a ride in it. Maybe next time, with luck after he's sorted out the HP deficit.

    Talk to another guy who was next to me on the grid who was taking out a BMW for the first time, an original mint green m roadster. Apparently he and a friend of his race in Trans-Am (?), and his friend, who races in ALMS, won the roadster in some race. Sounds like a good one to win.. Just thought that was kind of interesting.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
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    How many events have you done? If you're a beginner, then there's no real substitute for seat time. When I was starting out, I'd come in 10 seconds behind the front runners. At first, with that beginner's arrogance, I thought it was the car/tire pressures/setup/etc., until I had a local hot shoe drive my car. After that, all the excuses went away, and I had to concentrate on my driving.

    I've found that several things have really helped my driving. In no particular order, here they are. First is seat time. I do lots and lots of events, and usually try to concentrate more on my driving than on times. Each event I try to choose something to work on - it may be more aggressive driving, keeping the gas down around sweepers, faster transitions, looking farther ahead. But concentrate on something and just ignore your times. If your region holds a test and tune, sign up and go. Even if you don't test and tune your car, you'll get a whole bunch of runs, and can test and tune the driver.

    Second is finding a co-driver who is better than you, and can coach you. Ride along on their runs, have them ride along with you, and have them give you feedback. Try to find someone who is fast because they know what they're doing, not someone who is fast because they beat the hell out of the car. They don't have to have the same style as you, as long as they don't try to mold you into their style - the best type is someone who can recognize and encourage the things that you do right, and give you a good example of the right way to do the things that you do wrong. If you don't want to form a long-term co-driving deal, then try to get a bunch of different people to co-drive your car, maybe a different driver each event. But then you need to be sure to filter the feedback that you get, so you don't end up more confused than when you started.

    Third is modern technology. I've found that video taping my runs, especially video taping my co-driver's runs, helps a whole lot. Position the camera so that you can see what the driver is doing and where he's looking, along with the position of the car on course. Data logging with devices like the Geez cube work wonders when you're trying to figure out why your co-driver is so much faster than you are. Even adding lights, so the video tape can show if the driver is on the brake or on the gas would be useful. Even more useful would be three lights - one for brake, one for gas, and one for WOT.

    Fourth are autocross schools. The Evolution school is probably the best around specifically for autocrossing. Great instructors, useful exercises, well worth it. If the Evolution school isn't coming to your neck of the woods, then most regions seem to offer local schools. Usually get lots of seat time, and lots of feedback on your driving.

    Jim

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
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    i'll agree with Jim on this one. Nothing beats seat time and instruction. Jim, if you ever come to Houston,tx for any auto-x's are you available to be an instructor?
    #71 SM
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    Molon Labe...
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  4. #4
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    Apr 2002
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    used to have an e36 M3
    Thanks, Jim.

    I left out that it was only my second event. So, I'm not worried about how things are going, but rather looking for a way to accelerate the learning process a bit -- just four runs an event, and I'm spending the first two runs just getting half a clue about the track.

    Sounds like I need to get into an autocross school or test and tune and get as much practice as possible. I will see about running some non-BMWCCA autocrosses, too.

    I think the tip on concentrating on driving rather than the clock, and specifically one thing at a time, is a good one. I will try to get more analytic in my approach to this, and get better element by element.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
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    Originally posted by BJO
    Jim, if you ever come to Houston,tx for any auto-x's are you available to be an instructor?
    Sure - I'm really good at showing people what not to do....especially if I'm driving their car!
    "See, should have gotten on the brakes a little earlier there - that's why the car is pushing so much....Wups, missed that apex by a mile! Sheesh, those brakes work soooooo good - I should have waited another 10 feet before braking!"


    Jim

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
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    Cottonwood Heights, UT
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    E36 332is, E46 328i, VW Passat Turbo
    Originally posted by document
    Thanks, Jim.

    I left out that it was only my second event. So, I'm not worried about how things are going, but rather looking for a way to accelerate the learning process a bit -- just four runs an event, and I'm spending the first two runs just getting half a clue about the track.

    Sounds like I need to get into an autocross school or test and tune and get as much practice as possible. I will see about running some non-BMWCCA autocrosses, too.

    I think the tip on concentrating on driving rather than the clock, and specifically one thing at a time, is a good one. I will try to get more analytic in my approach to this, and get better element by element.
    No doubt more events will help. I'm in my third year, and while I have the basic skills down, I'm still learning the more advanced techniques and finer points. The veterans will always tell you "There's more time out there, I've got to learn how to find it."
    As far as getting more out of your runs, walk the course more than once. While its not at speed, getting the course memorized as much as possible beforehand is a HUGE help. You can then concentrate more on things like braking and turn-in points vs. where you are going. Also, always look ahead to where you want to be when you're driving, instead of looking at where you are.
    Try to get rides with experienced drivers or have them ride with you. This helped me a lot my first year.
    Definitely try attending non-BMWCCA events. SCCA events are always good. Lots of different cars and good drivers, and typically very friendly/helpful people.
    Other driving tips good for beginners: Get your braking done in a straight line, and don't enter a turn too fast. Be smooth with your inputs: brakes, gas, steering. Don't jam the brakes, good solid pressure is all that is needed. Roll into the throttle when accelerating out of turn vs. mashing it to the floor. Steer when needed, trying to keep hand movement to a minimum (I still struggle with this). Keep shifting to a minimum. Its better to have the car bogging a little in 2nd gear coming out of a turn rather than downshifting-upshifting constantly (just thinking of shifting wastes time usually, and you risk missed shift). For most courses, once I shift to 2nd after the start, I leave it there.
    Keith White
    #91 Street Modified Utah SCCA

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
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    Louisville Ky
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    95 BMW M3.2, 99 Audi A6 Avant & 01 Nissan X-Terra

    Smile Buy a book..

    I encourage you to buy a book on autocrossing to learn the basics. If you ever want to be fast, you must have a good understanding of the fundamentals. I think the last book I bought was the secret of solo II.. or something like that. Learn the basics at home, and try to apply them while racing. You have to be focused at the job at hand, learning the techniques and your car. Getting seat time is important, but you must also be working at something. Without an understanding of what it is that you're trying to achieve, you're just spinning your wheels imo. No pun intended. Did you know that one of the most critical parts of a track to do well on, is the corner before the longest straight? Do you know why it's so important?

    Enjoy.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    Parker, Colorado
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    GTS3 E36, 97 M3/4/5
    Originally posted by badbadm
    btw, your Pilot MXX3s are quite possibly the best street tire in the world for the track, even though they're expensive and out of production now. So you can cross them off the list as a reason for slow times in the street tire category.
    Are they even making MXX3's anymore? If not, how old are your tires? I picked up a full second replacing the 'ORIGINAL' MXX3's on the front of my 98M3 (21k miles at the time) with a new set of Pilots.

    Tires get old and hard. Once they do this, then the level of grip goes to hell. My old MXX3's were dusting the course. Completely used up and hard as a rock.

    If you stick your fingernail in the tread, and it doesn't give (at least some) then the tires are hard.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    GTS3 E36, 97 M3/4/5
    1. Seat time. Get more. Get faster

    2. Talk. Talk to the 'faster' guys.

    3. Watch. Watch the line that the faster guys are taking. Watch where they are braking and when they are accelerating.

    4. Listen. Street tires will tell you alot. If they are barking like dogs, you are pushing too hard.

    5. Seat time. Did I mention this already?

    6. Walk. Walk the course with someone who can drive well. Watch their line.

    7. Walk II. Ask about a novice walk through. Usually the club will have a novice walk through that will pit a 'pro' with a group of novices and show them the line through the course. Of course, if the guy drives a 72 Cadillac and you drive a Miata, your mileage may vary.

    8. Ride. Ride through with someone faster (preferrably with the same car). Have them ride through with you. Comments are always welcome.

    9. have fun:

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