94 E36 Won't Turn Over when HOT

[cybertoyz]

Hello,
I have a 1994 E36 with a problem that is driving me nuts!@#$%
The car will start just fine when its cold, however if I drive it for a distance and turn it off, when I try to restart the car... the Starter does not start the car. The guages light up and everything looks fine, however the starter wont turn over.

I was told this was probably the starter... so I replaced the starter (AND WHAT A JOB THAT WAS!!) Any way, I thought the starting problem would be cured, but alas... it is still a problem.

CAN ANYONE MAKE A SUGGESTION AS TO WHAT THE PROBLEM COULD BE??

THANK YOU!
Steve

[fun2drive]

The only thing I can suggest is to be sure you have really good contact on all the connections from the battery to the starter area. Have you tried to jump start the car by bypassing the circuit and touch the starter with a lug from the front jump start area around the engine compartment. This will tell you if the wiring is the issue or if there is a relay issue.
Hope this helps some

[cybertoyz]

I have already made sure the contacts from the alternator to Starter to Battery are all clean and tight. I have not tried to bypass the circuit as you suggested. How would this be done?? Can you tell me where the starter relay is located?? I tried to find it and cannot...

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!

[Hammdy]

starter doesn't make a noise at all.

[RotaryBzzz]

I had a similar problem in my old Jetta 16v.

Questions:
How many miles has it been since you changed the starter?

Did it immediately NOT start when hot after you changed it? Or did it go for awhile till it started "not hot-starting"?

[urafreak]

i have the exact same problem in my 95 318i. takes 3 or four times when hot to start. i started this thread but didn't get a concrete answer...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=300515

i almost replaced the starter but i guess thats not it.

[cybertoyz]

I changed the starter out 2 weeks ago. The "not-hot-starting" problem has continued even after I changed out the starter. There is a click sound from the starter when I turn the key, but thats it. The starter motor does not turn over until the vehicle has cooled down substantially (Usually I have to wait about 1 hour with the hood up).

I looked through a Chiltons Manual and there is no starter relay used on the E36 Standard Transmission model.

I hope someone has a suggestion!

[thejlevie]

The starter relay/solenoid is on the starter itself.

Diagnosing this sort of problem is pretty straight forward and is simply a matter of figuring out whether the problem is with the electrical system or the starter. The possibilities are then:

1) Starter Power lug has 12v
Control voltage present when the key is turned to start
Resistance from starter ground to battery negative terminal is essentially zero
Current through the positive battery lead remains low with key turn

This would be a symptom of bad starter or solenoid that's temperature related. It might be a bad winding in the starter or solenoid, a solenoid that sticks when hot, or a starter brush problem.

2) Starter Power lug has 12v
Control voltage present when the key is turned to start
Resistance from starter case to battery negative terminal is essentially zero
Current through the positive battery lead jumps high with key turn

This is also a symptom of a bad starter. The solenoid is closing and the starter is drawing current, but won't turn. It could be caused by a shorted starter winding or a binding starter

3) Starter Power lug voltage drops significantly with key turn

Bad connection in the power cable that causes a high resistance when the engine is hot.

4) Control voltage not present or drops very low with key turn

Bad connection in the control lead wiring that causes a high resistance when the engine is hot.

5) Resistance from starter ground to battery negative terminal is high

Bad connection in the ground path when the engine is hot.

I don't think I missed any... Once you know where the failure is it becomes either a matter of replacing the starter or chasing back thorugh the electrical system to find the bad connection.

[RotaryBzzz]

It definately sounds like a bad ground somewhere....something is thermally expanding to the point of creating a broken circuit somewhere. But I'm sure you've thought of that.

The starter circuit itself is very straightforward. You should be able to trace it's path w/o too much difficulty.

How long have you had the car for? Did you recently buy the car? Has it always been in california?

You know, you might also check your voltage drop when cranking hot vs. cranking cold. Perhaps its a combo of a bad ground + a marginal battery?? The fact you get a starter 'click' + dash lights means some voltage is getting through. You can buy a cigarrete lighter plug-in volt meter for ~$12 bucks at autozone. Quite functional (i've already diagnosed my alternator as kinda-on-its way out with this 12.9 - 13.0 volts charging) and cheap!

If there's another car you have access to, you might rip the battery out of that car just to test.

[urafreak]

thanks for the info guys. i'll try what you have suggested.

[p901911]

It seems as if all of the responses have been electrical in nature.
Here is another possibility from personal experience.

I had a car come in that was doing the same thing. Finally discovered that it was not an electrical fault but a matter of mechanical clearance.
The flywheel ring gear clearance to the starter gear is pretty tight, (relatively speaking in comparison to most other cars). (This can only be effectively checked with the transmission and flywheel bellhousing out of the car).
Ok, I can already hear the question, it was good for so many miles why now, and only when it is hot.
You say you hear the starter click when you turn the key. This is the solenoid attempting to bring the starter gear into engagement with the flywheel. The case I had was where the ring gear teeth were starting to get worn and rounded over after time. The metal of the gear teeth that were rounded over on the flywheel had final taken up enough clearance to not allow engagement when the car was hot and the parts had expanded.
Took about an hour with a die grinder and a tapered end mill to carefully dress all the burrs from the flywheel ring gear teeth.
Car has been perfect for three years now, daily driver. 325is with M50
Not a fun job, set yourself up with adequate padding over the fender to lay on. Of course the intake manifold must go, set up a bright light and take your time.
For me the job came out real nice, the starter is butter smooth and quiet now.
At first I didn`t want to believe in this theory and I certainly didn`t want to dis-assemble the transmission and bellhousing to do the required measurement since it must have been right to begin with from the factory.
The question was, what had changed over time?
The only thing that could have changed was the condition of the flywheel ring gear teeth because the starter was new so it wasn`t the starter gear.
A tip, I did buy a replacement starter from B_vA_to which was made in Mexico. This starter was J_NK ! I bought another starter from the dealer, a little bit more money and it worked like a charm with the already de-burred flywheel gear.
andrew

[Boosted318is]

Dude,
I just poosted a thread with this exact same issue on my 95 318is

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...7&goto=newpost

Once the car gets hot it will not start sometimes. All the accessories come on with the key, but when I try to start the car...nothing, not even a click.

I open the hood and let it cool for anout 10 minutes and magically the car starts perfectly. This has been driving me NUTTY for about 3 months now.

Any ideas peopel...help us out!!!

[RotaryBzzz]

it must be something about living near the beach???

Hermosa
Laguna

Life's a Beach! Remember those?

[Flipper]

Sounds like a relay getting hot, and opening up.

[bimmerbill]

I think this is whats going on with my car. I've had a fidenza light weight flywheel for a few years and recently i'm having problems starting my car . . . meaning the starter motor spins but the starter gear does not turn over the engine. I was hoping it was an ignition switch problem thinking maybe the contact for the solenoid was worn. it was quick and not to expensive so i gave it a shot which accomplished nothing lol. I really dont feel like pulling my transmission out again. Can you tell me if this car you fixed was acting just like a car with a bad starter solenoid? again my starter motor always spins when i try and start my car but it seems as though the the starter gear is not kicking out or contacting the flywheel at all. I'm guessing what you are saying is my problem.

It seems as if all of the responses have been electrical in nature.
Here is another possibility from personal experience.

I had a car come in that was doing the same thing. Finally discovered that it was not an electrical fault but a matter of mechanical clearance.
The flywheel ring gear clearance to the starter gear is pretty tight, (relatively speaking in comparison to most other cars). (This can only be effectively checked with the transmission and flywheel bellhousing out of the car).
Ok, I can already hear the question, it was good for so many miles why now, and only when it is hot.
You say you hear the starter click when you turn the key. This is the solenoid attempting to bring the starter gear into engagement with the flywheel. The case I had was where the ring gear teeth were starting to get worn and rounded over after time. The metal of the gear teeth that were rounded over on the flywheel had final taken up enough clearance to not allow engagement when the car was hot and the parts had expanded.
Took about an hour with a die grinder and a tapered end mill to carefully dress all the burrs from the flywheel ring gear teeth.
Car has been perfect for three years now, daily driver. 325is with M50
Not a fun job, set yourself up with adequate padding over the fender to lay on. Of course the intake manifold must go, set up a bright light and take your time.
For me the job came out real nice, the starter is butter smooth and quiet now.
At first I didn`t want to believe in this theory and I certainly didn`t want to dis-assemble the transmission and bellhousing to do the required measurement since it must have been right to begin with from the factory.
The question was, what had changed over time?
The only thing that could have changed was the condition of the flywheel ring gear teeth because the starter was new so it wasn`t the starter gear.
A tip, I did buy a replacement starter from B_vA_to which was made in Mexico. This starter was J_NK ! I bought another starter from the dealer, a little bit more money and it worked like a charm with the already de-burred flywheel gear.
andrew

[bmwdirtracer]

Really, Jim Levie posted everything above to handle almost all these issues, which are most usually electrical. p901911 covered an uncommon mechanical possibility very well, but to be honest, I'd not even consider going there until after ruling out everything electrical, which it seems no one on this thread has done. Bimmerbill, your case is an exception. (See below)

To every issue but Bimmerbills, I highly recommend unbolting, cleaning, and retightening the main engine ground, the B+ terminal underhood, both ends of both battery cables, the starter main and signal wire terminals. Then check voltage drops, and current draw, as Jim outlines above. Nothing but a click often indicates a failure of the power and ground wires and connections to carry the necessary load to turn the starter.

Bimmerbill, when you engage the key to start position, does the starter gear make a loud, unpleasant "wheeee" ? If so, and if the issue is intermittent, you may well have a few teeth missing or worn on the flywheel ring gear. If it makes the sound, but the problem is constant, the starter teeth may be damaged. Or, as you surmised, perhaps the gear is not reaching out enough... Consider whether you could get the car in the air a bit, and just remove the front cover plate, to look at the flywheel teeth, and perhaps even get a view upwards while someone engages the starter...with a flashlight, of course. Wear goggles, too, never know when a rock might fly out.

[bmwjay1208]

Did you ever find out what was the problem with the car ?

[bmwjay1208]

Can. Somebody help me I'm haveing the same problem with my 325I 94. Its been to 3 diffrent mechanics and nobody noes wat it is. I realy don't wanna give my car up I invested to much into it so if any body got an idea email me jayp328@gmail.com

[Balthazarr]

Can. Somebody help me I'm haveing the same problem with my 325I 94. Its been to 3 diffrent mechanics and nobody noes wat it is. I realy don't wanna give my car up I invested to much into it so if any body got an idea email me jayp328@gmail.com

3 mechanics?

Sometimes starters will get hot and will not turn over.
You need to describe what symptoms you are having and what has been tried, thus far.

[kinghawk]

One thing I do to try to narrow down grounding issues is to use jumper cables and run one end to the engine and the other to the body and see if the issue goes away. Ive narrowed down lots of grounding issues using this method.

[cfilanosky]

I have exactly the same problem in my 94 325i convertible.

When I start it up in the cool morning it's fine, but after driving it for a while or on a hot day, when I go to restart it, nothing. If I let it cool, it'll start again, but it may take a while. I've resorted to parking on hills whenever possible so I can roll start it if I need to. It's worse after a couple of starts, or if I'm tooling around in the city in traffic. One hot day I got stuck at Safeway and my wife had to pick me up in the family truckster before the ice cream melted.

It's not the solenoid (starter doesn't make a sound at all). Battery connections are clean and tight, etc. Sometimes if I shake the battery, this has helped, but maybe it's just a coincidence. With the trunk mounted battery it's hard to see where the cable goes and I have an apartment, not a house with garage, so it's not feasible for me to crawl under the car.

For me, it used to happen rarely, once or twice in the summer, but it's become increasingly frequent. First time it happened was about 5 years ago. It happened once or twice during the summer, isolated incident, I ignored it and hoped it would magically go away. I thought it might be the battery as I have an Autozone battery and the convertible is supposed to have a "special" battery. Battery was last replaced two years ago. That didn't make a difference. Current battery does hold a charge. I also recently had the clutch and flywheel replaced, that didn't make a difference. Car has a silent alarm/ immobilizer (aftermarket) and switching it on/off doesn't make a difference.

Starter switch? Don't know if that would be affected by the heat. God knows I've played with the key using different angles and pressures, etc., without any reliable positive results.

Relay? Maybe a failing relay? Anyone know which one might be the culprit? This might make sense as the relays are under the hood and prone to heat.

I had a VW Scirocco back in the day with ground issues, but that was the reverse problem, I had to roll-start it when cold, when it warmed up it was fine after that. I ended up adding additional grounding straps to the motor which seemed to help a bit.

I will try some of the suggestions posted and post the results. It's hard to manage because it's intermittent but I have jumper cables so I can try to see if additional grounding helps.

If anyone has any remarkable insights or finds a solution, PLEASE let the rest of us know!

Chuck
SF CA

[85M6]

I have similar problem with my 85 M6, after waking it up from 3-years of sleep, i.e., the starter works fine when the engine is cold, not when it is hot. I put new battery in it. When the engine is hot, the starter would just crank and crank (wheee eee eeee, something like that) but no fire (no vbroomm), as if no fuel is injected into the piston.

It has no sign of flooding, as I don't smell fuel nor see any black smokes when the engine fire up right after starting. Any idea why and how to troubleshoot? Thanks

[RotaryBzzz]

Sounds completely mechanical fuel related. How does it run when it's running? Like 100% normal under all throttles?

Have you changed the fuel filter? Spark plugs?

[arsenutsjr]

Bump. I live in Florida and my car will notstart after it sits in the sun. Replaced my starter worked great, then this issue occured. Got battery tested and charged. Any ideas, I couldn't sell it if I wanted.

[thejlevie]

Use a test light or DMM to see if system voltage is applied to the starter solenoid when the car is in a no start condition and the key is turned to start. If solenoid power is not present trace back to the ignition switch to see why. If solenoid power is present, check the voltage at the starter main lug. If that voltage drops, there a bad connection in the primary power path. If that's okay check the voltage between the starter body and a clean frame ground. It should be zero or close to it. If it isn't the engine to body ground is bad.

If all of that checks out, the starter is bad. While I've seldom encountered a problem with the more expensive factory rebuilt starters and alternators, I have seen lots of problems with the cheaper generic rebuilt units.