to those interested in forced induction

[frayed]

I've been doing a bunch of research on blowers and turbos. My conclusion so far is that the AA turbo is the best choice, since it is on full boost much earlier in the rev range than centrifugal-type blowers (including powerdynes and vortechs from dinan, ert, ess, and racemarque). The problem with the AA turbo is huge $$ for OBD II applications, and a more complex install.

There is another alternative: Positive displacement blowers, such as those from Whipple, Eaton, and others, including Roots-type. Positive displacement blowers hit full boost early in the rev range. The downside?

PD blowers are presently not available for M3's. But, just called Downing Atlanta (they work with Eaton units), and they stated that their blower for the E36 M3 will be available in 8 months. I've seen rumors that they would be priced an affordable $3.5k to 4.5k. I asked D/A, and he could not give me a price. I wouldn't hold my breath for a 3.5k blower from these guys though. Here's some info on their current system for the 4 cyl applications:

http://www.downingatlanta.com/da_sup...s_info_new.htm

Side note: A Whipple SC has been added to an Aussie E36 M3. It's really, really sick: http://www.turbobmw.com/keith.html


As for me, I think I'll wait the eight months. I don't want to spend over 10k on a turbo. So, if I could get many of the benefits of the turbo for half the price, I'm game.

[Beavis]

There's more to it than just the increase in power, there is the matter of turn key reliability (trouble free running). Most of us enjoy the fact that we can jump in our cars start them up and drive them, most of the time without any probloms. The unfortunat side effect of modifing cars is that they often require more maintanance, some times having many probloms related to the mods. First don't misunderstand me I love modded cars, I own and built a 400 HP MR2 Turbo and there were many trials and tribulations during the build up and the car continues to test my patience more often that I would like but I love it. So the point is how much power do you want and how much reliability are you willing to sacrifice. As far as M3s are conserned the two popular choices are Turbos or superchargers, The Turbo will make more power with a wider power band nuff said but in my opinion it will in some cases need more regular attention than a properly installed supercharger, Im not saying don't get a turbo Im just saying consider this before you buy. My experiance with superchargers on M3s have been positive, The `power is very good you will have one very fast M3, Typical maintanace issues would be belt ware. Speed cost money how fast can you afford to go.

[AlexT]

Many people said that there is not a Positive Displacement SC available for E36 M3. But HIOP is shipping one with Autorotor SC. I expect mine by end of May.


http://www.hioprace-tec.com/index.html

[SF Silver M3]

What kinds of increased maintenance are required for a s/c versus turbo? And, what are the corresponding costs? What about decrease in engine life? I've been thinking about forced induction also, but I'm not sure the added horsepower which I would use only occasionally is worth the extra cost.

[TurboBMW3]

hi,
Sorry..but this questions doesnt really apply to "frayed's" response... but since he brought up that OBDII AA kits are big $$... would it be cheaper to run a OBDI system on the OBDIIs by changing the DME and intake manifold to OBDI system? The reason is cause i switched my 325is 2.5 liter to a 2.8 liter... and retained all the old intake and the DME stuff for the 2.8 liter to run with my old turbo kit. I bought it all together...so i really dont know how much it would cost to purchase just the DME and the intake manifold. THe AA OBDI kit is only $6000 ... The only reason i ask this...is cause... i have had both the supercharger and AA turbo... and i have had more success and power with the turbo kit than i did with the supercharger... and I would recommend the turbo if it was cheaper to add the old intake with the OBDI DME for OBDII cars.

[JCM3]

My mechanic has installed many Whipple SC.

In his opinion, they are horrible. He has had numerous problems and most were never totally resolved.

I am personally going to wait until I can afford an AA Turbo.

[tampaturbom3]

For what it's worth,
like TURBOBMW3, i know several who have gone from S/C to turbo, but i know of no one that has gone from turbo to S/C. as for addl maintanance, any car pushed to limits regularly will have add'l upkeep. i should know,, i've pushed all my cars to the limits....lol
it's sort of a given, if you increase power, and use it, it will cost more. if you aren't willing to handle that, modifying is not for you.

[BLOWN///M COMPACT]

I had a sc and ran 10psi and it never ran right .. Belts where flying off and the powerdyne was only built for 7 and lower psi so you have to be happy and thats that .. I spent over 10K with the SC company and then took a trip to Miami and drove a AA car .. I also spoke to people with AA kits and most of them has had there kits on for more than 60k miles with no problems.. The only problem I am having is flat spotting my tires breaking from 120 to 0 with my Movit's on new Yoko rubber

[frayed]

tampa,

I know people have gone blower-turbo, but not the reverse. I think the main problem with well engineered blowers right now (like Dinan, RMS, or ERT/Turner) is that they are ALL centifugal, which means that full boost in not produced till redline, unlike an AA turbo which is on full boost at like 3k. However, the positive displacement blowers get on full boost at about 3k too. I think the big difference b/t turbos and pos. disp. blowers is that blowers use up some hp to drive them, and turbos really don't.

Blown,

I have heard the same thing about powerdyne units, supposedly the Vortech units can handle more boost. Maybe you can swap?

TurboBMWM3,

You asked "would it be cheaper to run a OBDI system on the OBDIIs by changing the DME and intake manifold to OBDI system? " Turns out to be nearly a wash, since the OBDI to OBDII conversion cost $2295 in parts from Zionsville. So, adding in labor, plus to get whatever tweaks you need for AA to get the turbo to work right with an OBD I converted car, I'd think the OBD II turbo kit would be a better bet. I may be wrong.

AlexT,

Cool! Did not know that. How much? How's the Autorotor compare to the Eaton units?
I heard that hiop bought Bell's (Corky Bell's) operations. Is that right?


All,

I may be wrong on all this since I do not have any first hand knowledge, just been reading a bit here and there.

peace,

[Greg]

With any big power your going to encounter problems. The bottom line is that the M engine was not designed for a turbo at the factory. So your forcing it to handle high temps + stress like it has never known nor been prepped for. Go AA if you can afford to replace major components, and your comfortable not seeing your car for months at a time. It becomes very specilized high maintenance. Removing it becomes a pain as well. A supercharger is simpler, but not that much.
I put a SC in my M, and the underdrive pulley, and oil pump pulley came apart a week later because of vibrations. Apparently these parts were not torqued enough at the factory.
It was a BIG pain in the ass. And the car has only 350HP... (Which is blindingly fast as is)

If you bump up your power, keep emergency cash for:
*Drive shafts...
*Clutches
*Maybe a gearbox
*New rear subframe
*New engine.
*tires
And all the other miscelaneos crap... Cause their is plenty.

Some of you may think I'm crazy, but I'm not. The bottom line is that it's a gamble. I personally ran into annoyiong problems, that costed many thousands of dollars. Be prepared to spend because you will, and not just on the initial install. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Another thing is that some of us are NOT meant to have 400 HP cars PERIOD.
Consider the the following:
Some people keep talking about the Superchagers not having the instant power and torque low down in the range. That's the same power that can spin the hell out of your car if yor foot is too aggressive coming out of a turn.

Let me tell you its VERY easy to do.
So consider that your car becomes very crashable.
It shouldn't be overlooked.

But hey if you want this stuff to be your life kind of like me and the other guys here, then knock yourselves out!

Happy Motoring

Greg:

[Josh///M3]

speaking of blowers, i've heard that the lysom (spelling is wrong i think) type blowers are around the efficiency for turbos. Hiop is ALLEGEDLY producing them. When are these being produced? i saw a picture of one so they at least have a prototype. I just want some DYNO PLOTS to see the results. I'd jump to buy a $3500 sc that provides very good boost, i mean if its better than centrifugal. That'd be great. Anyone heard anything about it?

Have fun,
Josh

[jww///95]

Originally posted by AlexT
Many people said that there is not a Positive Displacement SC available for E36 M3. But HIOP is shipping one with Autorotor SC. I expect mine by end of May.

...I know this question has been asked countless times, but has anyone been able to find details on this kit???

I am assuming that alex probally knows more about this kit and pricing if you already have one on order, so can you comment on the company, the kit, or any other details?

thanks
j-

[Gluall@aol.com]

Hey frayed...im interested in getting a postitive displacement blower as well...but i believe you have some info wrong. Even the positive displacement blowers arent making full boost until redline. Turbos are the only blowers that do.

The difference between a positive displacement blower and a centrifugal blower is that a positive displacement blower suffers less loss of boost at lower RPMs. The way a centrifugal supercharger provides boost for example is say 8psi at 6000RPM...this means that at 6000RPM you are making full boost, but at 3000RPM which is half of the powerband you arent making 8psi, in fact you arent even making 4psi.

On centrifugal s/c the increase in boost is exponential that is, if you are making Xpsi at 3000rpm...instead of making 2Xpsi at 6000RPM you are actually making x^2 (x squared) psi at 6000. Meaning that the farther you are away from redline you are making <u>exponentially</u> less boost.
<b>8psi at 6000 = less than 3psi at 3000RPM</b>

The advantage to the positive displacement blower is that if at 3000RPM you are making Xpsi then at 6000RPM you are making 2Xpsi. This means more boost at lower RPMs because the boost will increase <u>linearly not exponentially</u>.
<b>8psi @ 6000RPM = 4psi at 3000RPM</b>

Turbos of course are the ultimate they being making full boost at around 3500 and continue until you drop below that point. There isnt any competition for these.

As you can see the positive displacement s/c gives more usable boost throughout the powerband. Most cars that come stock with superchargers use this type of supercharger.

This is the info as i understand it...if anyone else can add to my statements or correct me, please feel free to.

[gerry_miranda]

Originally posted by Greg
With any big power your going to encounter problems. The bottom line is that the M engine was not designed for a turbo at the factory. So your forcing it to handle high temps + stress like it has never known nor been prepped for. Go AA if you can afford to replace major components, and your comfortable not seeing your car for months at a time. It becomes very specilized high maintenance. Removing it becomes a pain as well. A supercharger is simpler, but not that much.
I put a SC in my M, and the underdrive pulley, and oil pump pulley came apart a week later because of vibrations. Apparently these parts were not torqued enough at the factory.
It was a BIG pain in the ass. And the car has only 350HP... (Which is blindingly fast as is)

If you bump up your power, keep emergency cash for:
*Drive shafts...
*Clutches
*Maybe a gearbox
*New rear subframe
*New engine.
*tires
And all the other miscelaneos crap... Cause their is plenty.

Some of you may think I'm crazy, but I'm not. The bottom line is that it's a gamble. I personally ran into annoyiong problems, that costed many thousands of dollars. Be prepared to spend because you will, and not just on the initial install. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Another thing is that some of us are NOT meant to have 400 HP cars PERIOD.
Consider the the following:
Some people keep talking about the Superchagers not having the instant power and torque low down in the range. That's the same power that can spin the hell out of your car if yor foot is too aggressive coming out of a turn.

Let me tell you its VERY easy to do.
So consider that your car becomes very crashable.
It shouldn't be overlooked.

But hey if you want this stuff to be your life kind of like me and the other guys here, then knock yourselves out!

Happy Motoring

Greg:

I agree 100%.............
I'm comfortable with some SC and Turbo tuners..
Names like AA, ERT and DINAN are some that I trust.

BUT a newly developed forced induction that comes up short in details adn maybe support from a company that I have just recently heard about frightens me. I understand the fact that it might be more reasonable priced, BUT dont let that change the fact that FORCED INDUCTION is a MAJOR cahnge to your engine and it needs to have been engineered right...or else you wont have an engine left...

Just my .02......

[frayed]

Originally posted by Gluall@aol.com
Hey frayed...im interested in getting a postitive displacement blower as well...but i believe you have some info wrong. Even the positive displacement blowers arent making full boost until redline. Turbos are the only blowers that do.

The difference between a positive displacement blower and a centrifugal blower is that a positive displacement blower suffers less loss of boost at lower RPMs. The way a centrifugal supercharger provides boost for example is say 8psi at 6000RPM...this means that at 6000RPM you are making full boost, but at 3000RPM which is half of the powerband you arent making 8psi, in fact you arent even making 4psi.

On centrifugal s/c the increase in boost is exponential that is, if you are making Xpsi at 3000rpm...instead of making 2Xpsi at 6000RPM you are actually making x^2 (x squared) psi at 6000. Meaning that the farther you are away from redline you are making <u>exponentially</u> less boost.
<b>8psi at 6000 = less than 3psi at 3000RPM</b>

The advantage to the positive displacement blower is that if at 3000RPM you are making Xpsi then at 6000RPM you are making 2Xpsi. This means more boost at lower RPMs because the boost will increase <u>linearly not exponentially</u>.
<b>8psi @ 6000RPM = 4psi at 3000RPM</b>

Turbos of course are the ultimate they being making full boost at around 3500 and continue until you drop below that point. There isnt any competition for these.

As you can see the positive displacement s/c gives more usable boost throughout the powerband. Most cars that come stock with superchargers use this type of supercharger.

This is the info as i understand it...if anyone else can add to my statements or correct me, please feel free to.

Gotchya!

I am a newbie to this stuff. So, it seems the real difference b/t the two is a linear boost curve vs. and exponential one, with both ending up at the same spot at redline (full boost).

Well, I got more info. Just got off the phone with Corky Bell of Bell Engineering, based out of San Antonio (1 hr away from me). He's a great guy and explained a whole bunch of thermodynamics to me (and has published several "bibles" on forced induction). Anyway, the positive displacement SC for the E36 M3 is a no go. It turned out to be too complex, and the lack of thermal efficiencey of Lysohlm type blowers made the situation worse (note, roots-type are even worse than lysohlm). I talked about the upcoming Downing Atlanta blower with Corky. He stated that, if released by Downing (Corky knows him personally, for over 15 years), it will be a good unit, but will likely offer only modest gains.

In a side note, they are about to start shipping OBD I turbos, and will have the OBDII turbo in a month or so. Here's Corky's words on the subject

http://www.bellengineering.net/BMWM3Turbo.html

peace

[tampaturbom3]

wow,,, too bad that letter doesn't have it's date on it. if you go to bimmer.org and check the archives, assuming they keep them that long, you will see that the exact letter to the "t" was written way before i even bought my system from AA. that was in 98 or 99. it is the same document, word for word.
i'm kind of suprised that the same exact letter is still circulating as new information. i remember over a year ago, bell was one of the banner advertisers on bimmer.org with their "m3 turbo ad". but it never came to fruition then either. ask the old timers that came over from that board with me, they'll tell you.

[AlexT]

I've had a lot of e-mails back and forth with HIOP. Her name is Lorainne.

Here are some of the answers I've got from her. She is not hard to reach. I left message and she calls me right back. Keep in mind that this started about 5 months ago.

Hello Alex

Our Supercharger Kit for the E36 6cyl M3 will be going into production and ready for delivery in mid March 2001.

The Kit consists of the following parts:
Auto Rotor twin screw positive displacement supercharger ; Extension drive; Mounting bracket, Cast aluminium alloy short port inlet manifold, Cast
throttle body adapter manifold, Cast outlet ducting, By-pass valve, Piggy back computer, Water injection cooling system, Replacement drive belt and tensioner; Lubrication system, All hardware for installation.
Our Kit will develop 340 BHP & 405 Nm on 3.0 M3 ; and on the 3.2 M3

355 BHP and 450 Nm torque with a max. boost of 0.5 bar (7.5 PSI)


PRICE: US$4300 + shipping/handling
Delivery 6 - 8 weeks from time of order.
We take Visa, Mastercard and American Express with 50% down at time of
order.
Balance due at time of shipping.

Thanks,
--
Hiop Race-Tec, Inc.
Larraine Jackson
Ph: 480.941.5233
Fax: 480.941.0233
http://www.hioprace-tec.com
mailto:hiopusa@hioprace-tec.com

Your standard HFM is retained with a voltage clamp provided. If you increased your boost a larger unit would increase your top end power, but at 0.5 bar which our kit uses no gain would be noticed. Water would be requried to be topped up as required, however this may be done every time you filled fuel.
The 328i & M3 injectors have enough spare capacity for 0.5 bar boost. If you go over this then you would require our piggy back computer and 7th. injector.
You can increase boost by reducing the size of the supercharger pulley.

The super efficiency of this compressor generates very low charge air temperatures; at 0.5 bar the charge temperature is ca. 50°C above ambient and therefore you do not require an intercooler. Water injection effectively seals the gap between the 2 screws and this makes it even more efficient giving even beter low down boost and power.

At 0.5 bar you would get negligible increase in power by changing your air mass sensor, should you decide in the future to increase your boost to +0.8 bar(12p.s.i.) then you can change your AMS and fit our stage 2 add on kit currently under R&D.

Fuel pressure is increased and a microfueler takes care of your additional fuel requirements.

We have a suitable program for the DME for Euro. grade fuel, we are now working on one for USA fuel. This program increases RPM to 7000 but this will be offered in the stage 2 kit.

We contacted Germany re dyno graphs. Will get back to you with dyno graph end of next week, after the Easter holiday period. Delivery of Supercharger will be end of May.

Hope this info helps.

here is also a picture I got from her with the s/c on the engine.

[frayed]

Alex,

Thanks for the info. The one thing that troubles me is the lack of an intercooler. Here is my rather rudimentary understanding of thermodynamics relevant to blowers:

A thermodynamic (or adiabatic) efficiency of 1 (or 100%) represents a perfect compressor whereby the only heat added to the compressed air is by the compression itself, using the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.

Anything below 1 means that the compressor adds heat to the air charge. This is bad, as heated charges cause detonation (pinging), which will kill an engine. No form of forced induction has perfect efficiency.

Turbos run in the .7x range, centrifugal SC's in slightly lower than that. Noteworth, centrifugal SC's run very similar blower units to turbos, sometimes that same. The best positive displacement blower, despite claims to the contrarty, has a .56 effeciency (I believe this is Eaton's best). Accordingly, it is my understanding that an intercooler is critical for cooling the charge and maintaining engine durability (by preventing detonation).

I wonder if water injection is a satisfactory substitute?

Even if any of the above is inaccurate, turbos are the CLEAR winner in the efficiency contest. Good turbo kits come with an intercooler (eg, AA). Accordingly, I would be suspect of a blower kit that does not.

Just my depreciated, market bludgeoned $0.02.

[Greg]

Frayed,
I'll have you know that after a hard drive, I can get out and put my hand on the supercharger, or the intake manifold, and it will never get hotter than 90 degrees.
You must also consider the correct placement of your intake.
I think your use of the word "efficiency" is misinterpreted. To some efficiency applies in a general sense, pertaining to ease of use/maintenance and cost.

So efficiency according to your statement is having a turbo car that CAN NOT be floored after having been stagnant in traffic due to possible engine failure? How do did you come to that deduction.

You obviously have not owned an aftermarket turboed or supercharged car. Because they both have there problems.

On a turbo, you generally run higher boost, which only stresses more components. Where do you see the efficiency there?

Stay naturally aspirated. You won't need to refer to the laws of thermodynamics.

[frayed]

Greg,

Not sure why you are getting your panties in a bunch. I am only repeating information that Corky Bell told me over the phone yesterday. If I am wrong, he is wrong. You can check his credentials yourself, or may want to read any of the number of books he has published on forced induction. Do a search on Bentley's site under authors and pick up his forced induction books if you want a more detailed, scientific explaination. Although I have an engineering background, I don't work as an engineer and deal with this stuff on any sort of regular basis.

My reference to adiabatic or thermodynamic efficiency is accurate, and is an important coefficient measured by all turbo and blower manufacturers. It represents how much additional heat is added to a charge, beyond what would normally be calculated from the ideal gas law PV=nRT. The lower the number (less than 1) the hotter the charge. Efficiency numbers are INDIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the actual inlet temperature into the combustion chamber. Hot charges are bad, as they CAN lead to detonation. Of course all modern cars have knock sensors that detect pre-ignition before it happens, and retard timing to prevent detonation. The problem is that modern systems can only adjust within a certain range, and my understanding is that hot charges can take your car out of this range.

This is precisely one of the main reasons why it is difficult to run high compression and high boost. More compression = more heat = more detonation.

I don't dispute your 'hand' test. But, bear in mind that your 6 or 7 psi blower only makes that at redline. If your car made that boost from 3k rpm and higher, you may need an intercooler with your blower. But, then again, if your blower made this boost at 3k rpm, it would be called a turbo. :p

At 3k rpm, your car makes less than 1psi of boost. The point of all this? Well, even if you drive your car hard, it would be difficult to operate it a more than half your 6 or 7 psi, averaged over your entire drive. Maybe that's why ERT, ESS, Dinan, Turner et al. don't sell intercoolers with their SCs. . . don't need them due to the fact that you can only hit full boost at redline. I'm not sure on this.

You stated "So efficiency according to your statement is having a turbo car that CAN NOT be floored after having been stagnant in traffic due to possible engine failure? How do did you come to that deduction." WTF? Don't know where the hell you got that. It seems you are equating detonation to engine failure? Detonation = pre-ignition = engine knock. Detonation is caused by too much heat energy in the compressed gas in your combustion chamber, causing the compressed gas to spontaneously combust before the spark plug fires. This can LEAD to engine failure, and is considered much more damaging to a motor than high rpms.

You also stated "On a turbo, you generally run higher boost, which only stresses more components. Where do you see the efficiency there?" You make no sense, b/c I was strictly refering to adiabatic efficiency. Higher boost = more stress, but the level of internal stress to a motor has nothing to do with efficiency. And, turbos don't automatically make more boost. You can have "low" and "high" boost turbos. You cannot make such a general statement.


Finally, you state "You obviously have not owned an aftermarket turboed or supercharged car." You are right, I have not owned an AFTERMARKET car with forced induction. So, what's your point? Does an ERT blower make you a forced induction god? FWIW, I've driven an M3 w/a Dinan blower. It was fast, but I was hoping for more power across the entire rpm band.

"Because they both have there problems." Umm. Yeah. OK.

[gerry_miranda]

Originally posted by Greg
Frayed,
I'll have you know that after a hard drive, I can get out and put my hand on the supercharger, or the intake manifold, and it will never get hotter than 90 degrees.
You must also consider the correct placement of your intake.
I think your use of the word "efficiency" is misinterpreted. To some efficiency applies in a general sense, pertaining to ease of use/maintenance and cost.

So efficiency according to your statement is having a turbo car that CAN NOT be floored after having been stagnant in traffic due to possible engine failure? How do did you come to that deduction.

You obviously have not owned an aftermarket turboed or supercharged car. Because they both have there problems.

On a turbo, you generally run higher boost, which only stresses more components. Where do you see the efficiency there?

Stay naturally aspirated. You won't need to refer to the laws of thermodynamics.

I have Dinan SC and I can not put my hands on it because of heat. After all
oil does circulate through it at an avg temp of 170F ouch...

[Greg]

That's why I bought a system that didn't require an oil feed. I think it just increases odds of issues when oil hoses are being run all over the place.
Dinan does make good stuff, so I trust it works like hell!

[frayed]

Originally posted by gerry_miranda


I have Dinan SC and I can not put my hands on it because of heat. After all
oil does circulate through it at an avg temp of 170F ouch...

Gerry, despite everything that was stated in this thread, I think a centrifugal SC can represent a really good hp/$ value. My purpose of asking about forced induction is to try to come up with all the pros and cons. I may actually buy a Dinan SC used. Do you like your Dinan? Any problems?

tia

[GMat]

Originally posted by frayed
Greg,

Not sure why you are getting your panties in a bunch. I am only repeating information that Corky Bell told me over the phone yesterday. If I am wrong, he is wrong. You can check his credentials yourself, or may want to read any of the number of books he has published on forced induction. Do a search on Bentley's site under authors and pick up his forced induction books if you want a more detailed, scientific explaination. Although I have an engineering background, I don't work as an engineer and deal with this stuff on any sort of regular basis.

My reference to adiabatic or thermodynamic efficiency is accurate, and is an important coefficient measured by all turbo and blower manufacturers. It represents how much additional heat is added to a charge, beyond what would normally be calculated from the ideal gas law PV=nRT. The lower the number (less than 1) the hotter the charge. Efficiency numbers are INDIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the actual inlet temperature into the combustion chamber. Hot charges are bad, as they CAN lead to detonation. Of course all modern cars have knock sensors that detect pre-ignition before it happens, and retard timing to prevent detonation. The problem is that modern systems can only adjust within a certain range, and my understanding is that hot charges can take your car out of this range.

This is precisely one of the main reasons why it is difficult to run high compression and high boost. More compression = more heat = more detonation.

I don't dispute your 'hand' test. But, bear in mind that your 6 or 7 psi blower only makes that at redline. If your car made that boost from 3k rpm and higher, you may need an intercooler with your blower. But, then again, if your blower made this boost at 3k rpm, it would be called a turbo. :p

At 3k rpm, your car makes less than 1psi of boost. The point of all this? Well, even if you drive your car hard, it would be difficult to operate it a more than half your 6 or 7 psi, averaged over your entire drive. Maybe that's why ERT, ESS, Dinan, Turner et al. don't sell intercoolers with their SCs. . . don't need them due to the fact that you can only hit full boost at redline. I'm not sure on this.

You stated "So efficiency according to your statement is having a turbo car that CAN NOT be floored after having been stagnant in traffic due to possible engine failure? How do did you come to that deduction." WTF? Don't know where the hell you got that. It seems you are equating detonation to engine failure? Detonation = pre-ignition = engine knock. Detonation is caused by too much heat energy in the compressed gas in your combustion chamber, causing the compressed gas to spontaneously combust before the spark plug fires. This can LEAD to engine failure, and is considered much more damaging to a motor than high rpms.

You also stated "On a turbo, you generally run higher boost, which only stresses more components. Where do you see the efficiency there?" You make no sense, b/c I was strictly refering to adiabatic efficiency. Higher boost = more stress, but the level of internal stress to a motor has nothing to do with efficiency. And, turbos don't automatically make more boost. You can have "low" and "high" boost turbos. You cannot make such a general statement.


Finally, you state "You obviously have not owned an aftermarket turboed or supercharged car." You are right, I have not owned an AFTERMARKET car with forced induction. So, what's your point? Does an ERT blower make you a forced induction god? FWIW, I've driven an M3 w/a Dinan blower. It was fast, but I was hoping for more power across the entire rpm band.

"Because they both have there problems." Umm. Yeah. OK.

Ouch.. *hands greg some aloe lotion for his burns*

[AlexT]

Frayed,

I did think and research into the heat problem and water injection. Yes, I didn't think putting WATER into my engine was a good idea. But after some research, I found out that the water injection is so effective that a lot of people are using it. I could actually dump some ice into the water tank and get serious temp drop. ERT is having stage 2 on their SC with water injection without intercooler. Lots of turbo guys are using it along with intercoolers. It's a little trouble some as I have to fill up WATER! I hope I am right about this. I will keep you up to date as the project progress, since this is going to be a DIY project. I expect this project to be a lot of fun since I love working on my cars.