BMW software / dme running 2jz swap?

[Sio2crew]

Over Thanksgiving , my brothers kid slid off the road in his is300. The chassis is compromised. Owner works detailing cars. As far as a 2jzge goes, this one is mint.

I understand what is required to make a GE into something similar to a turbo 2jz gte. To do it "right", It's not just a gasket / spacer /stud combo like a m50 engine. ( Unfortunately) The actual hardware required is the easy bit imo.

EDIT: Let's just assume I have a ms41/42/43 shell that came factory with a m5x engine. (E36, e46, e39, z3 ) I'm thinking ms43 it's the most advanced, it's the easiest to adapt the drive by wire, no cable needed.

If a 2j , and a s50 are bolth 86mm bore and 86mm stroke, that's pretty similar. The vvti is not binary as far as I can tell. No vvti, or controlling it similar to a single vanos on off, Again no big deal to me. Vvti function is similar. (Oil pressure controlled by a solenoid) I'm going to guess this part would require the most software development to have full function.

The real question

Why couldn't I put a 60-2 tooth wheel on the 2j crank snout, and modify the cam pickup up in a similar fason. (Assuming it's not just a software change) keep the BMW ignition system , keep the BMW m54 drive by wire, as it's close to a stock 2j t.b.

Obviously this is a question for my tuner. He was a big part of the m5x development team. Im posting here looking for obvious oversight or any other attempts as something similar. Searching online, I could not find this answer. ( I saw a thread talking about a e36, but it was old and unclear.) I'm not looking to smog this build, just keep the money spent , for the important bits. I could get a microsquirt and run wasted spark/batch fire for similar money..... To get an entire coil on plug set up on a GE is pricey, or a gte head, or, or , or... OR, just use all the BMW spares I have , run them to the 2j with the right sensors. ( Ms43 most likely ) Yes I would probably get a transmission adaptor. ( 8hp, or 420g)

I will update this once I find any more info. If it does work, I would think this would become a more common swap. Or perhaps an available kit my tuner could offer? If a stock BMW already has the ability to control the engine management side of things it would be a more affordable swap.


Yes a 2J is heavier than a m5x. 2jz vvti Needs a lot more modification to exceed 400hp , It's not all positives. I know the list is long and I have not covered all that's required on the hardware side of things if I want reliability.

If I'm missing any glaring problems, please let me know.

The only real hurdles I see , are the sensor triggers , and possibly the knock sensors ? I know knock sensors compare the two signals more than anything , so it may not be a big deal.

Lots of aftermarket 2j support for sensors if the factory stuff isn't a option.

[BimmerBreaker]

Anything is possible with deep enough pockets. But would it ever make financial sense to do this instead of just running standalone, or be worth the effort and cost compared to swapping in a newer BMW engine with cheaper/easier potential for high HP like N54/N55 or B58, etc?

2J is old tech and starting with a GE puts you in an even deeper hole to start with. They are cool to show off at car shows because of the pedigree, but there are much better $$$/HP options now.

[Sio2crew]

Thank you for the feedback.

The issue with a standalone, or any of thoes newer engines, I would have to make that purchase.

If I was running a newer chassis , perhaps a newer engine. The engines you mention, have very complicated cam programs. Expensive, complicated fuel systems, coolant systems, electronics and wiring , number of sensors. The standalone required is very expensive compared to say, a microsquirt. The people avalible to tune ir diagnose one of thoes, is limited, and more expensive. parts are limited, and MUCH more expensive. Personaly I woulden't touch a open deck aluminum turbo motor with a ten foot pole. (N54 n55) There is a reason I built a port injection car, then swapped to an even older iron block version. There's also a reason my mom put half a million miles on an unopened m52b28 with basic matince.

I have multiple m5x cars that already run and drive. Sitting in storage. ( e36, e46, e39's , a z3 shell that's getting a old 60's saab body swapped onto it.) I have the parts I would require already. He has 2j preformance na-t parts he has been collecting.

I have a turbo m54b30 on a stand, I pulled it from my working car to swap in a different engine. I have enough performance clutches, flywheels, maf sensors , intercoolers, ect ect .. all compatible with the cars I have. The cost of entry for this project is almost nothing If I can use the Dme , fuel control, cam cam , throtel body and coil pack control from the bmw ( converted to smart coils already, and I have spare smart c.o.p. piggy backs) I'm a turbo manifold and exhaust away from a third turbo m5x car. I could buy a saab to bmw trans adaptor for my spare 400hp , b234 engIne that's on its own stand alone (sds em4f )....... that is less than 400$ (plus flywheel) a.k.a. I got options. We just don't have an unlimited budget.

I have a 18 year old relative, who's invested into his platform, but he is poor. He wants to track a car. No matter what I choose , it's going to cost 4x what I think. (Been there, done that , I have the recipets, sigh. ) As much as I love my swapped, s52b32 , that's already built to make power. I still worry about really turning it up. Parts are more money vs a 2j. Parts are less avalible vs a 2jg . if we can put together a reliable track car, for minimum money, and it's a proven engine platform. One that's understressed at 650hp, vs my s52 or m54 that may or may not last at that level. I cut no obvios corners on my s52 personal build, it's treated me great so far. ( especially if you compare it to any of my friends and their turbo n54/55 cars. )

My sisters 2021 b58 supra has been bullet proof?! (She is above my tax bracket too)


The 2j has the most aftermarket support of any strait 6.
You can go cheap parts, or expensive parts, you have options!
It's proven to live a long life at power levels above my requirements.
It's a new platform for me to learn. It's his preferd brand. He has history with this actual engine.



The ge has its issues, 100%. Lacking actual coil on plug. Different crank sensor pickup for the gte, different cam sensors for the gte. It's all the same things I would need to modify, to make it fit a m5x car/software. ( minus the cost if I already own all the m5x bits)

I don't know why I have more confidence flogging a cheap 2j build , vs. My expensive m5x build....... I just do. Honestly , it's probably the raised deck and the longer rods. The lack of harmonics above 7000rpm. All things that aid in heavy duty reliability. Especially if the cost of entry is low. Cost to mantain is low. Cost to repair is low. I have a ton of experience with the ms43/42/41 , having swapped the newer 43 into older 42/41 cars. My single vanos is running off my dIsa valve control. (M50 intake , disa deleted) It's not overly complicated.

In this senerio , it makes sense if it works? I know the engine do not preform the same. A s50b30u.s. is closest,. Im just worried about differences, leading to complications I'm not taking into account? That's why I'm asking. (So far, so good.) No reason it should not be a repeatable, affordable option. It's as cheap as any other option I can price out trying to put a 2j into a 3 series.

If I'm using the car with the ms43 already in it, it's one of the most simple ways I could go about it.

[Sio2crew]

60-2 trigger wheel (crank sensor)


https://electromotive.com/our-produc...trigger-wheel/

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[BimmerBreaker]

Just a few points, and for the record I do love all engine swaps - so don't think I am trying to dissuade you from doing this, I just think all aspects need to be considered and for what you now describe as a track car on a budget I am not sure this is the best path

They have CAS deletes available for those newer BMW engines now so they can run factory DME. You didn't explicitly state what your power goal is, but even a B48 may be able to get there - in a significantly lighter package.

You mention it being a track car so weight should be a consideration imo. There are many ways to hit a specific power level and the 2JZ is a heavy engine... Reliability wise, any engine on a factory DME is is going to more reliable than this type of conversion.

And having the engine doesn't make the swap "cheaper" to do. You could just sell the current engine. I never really understood the mindset of "I have it so I'm going to use it" as this often ends up costing (a lot) more in the end. Putting $5k into a swap because one "has the engine" doesn't make more sense than selling the engine for $2k and putting $5k towards a build that's cheaper to hit their power goal ($3k net cost). I see it all the time and just can't wrap my head around that logic.

I think if he is set on the JZ and wants to use the stuff he's been buying for that engine, I would just buy a car with a JZ already in it and run that. If you want to reach into your pile of BMW goodies to help him build a nice track car I would just use the E46 you said you have in storage as a starting point.

The sensors and whatnot are cheap as chips, having those at your disposal to try to convert a 2JZ to MS43 is not going to save you much money.
The cost is going to be the custom fabrication to make the various sensors fit or sourcing sensors that provide an appropriate signal, custom/modified trigger wheels to provide input to those sensors where required by the BMW dme, machine work to accept knock sensors and other various doodads, and a lot of time (and if you can't do it yourself, a lot of money) into the dme tuning to satisfy it. And even then it will likely take a lot of seat time to work out all the kinks to try to get it somewhat reliable. All to end up with an engine that's been hodge podged together and is heavier than a BMW I6. And that's assuming it can even be done at all. It'd likely end up being severely dumbed down with VVTI deleted

I think you are underestimating how difficult running a 2JZ on BMW stuff is going to be and overestimating the reliability of an engine swap of that caliber. And maybe overestimating the performance of an old 90s Toyota engine.

If you are dead set on the 2JZ in a BMW chassis then standalone makes a lot more sense financially than the conversion you are talking about. Them having similar bore, stroke, whatever is trivial, and that stuff can be tuned for even if they were different - what matters is the sensor pickups and those are very different.

A safe tune on your turbo M54 running low boost in the e46 would be a great option. An 18 year old doesn't need extreme power what he needs is seat time if he wants to get into tracking a car. Id even say a stock m54 with the few track mods done (oil pan baffle, pump net welded or wired) would be the best starting point for a few seasons...

[Sio2crew]

Drift car, drag car, do it all car. Not nessasaly a time attack or auto cross car exclusively. Who knows, I'm not him. I don't think he knows yet what he wants other than seat time. For sure it will be Used on track to drift , limiter, low cooling potential. High overheat potential.

Reliability wise, any engine on a factory DME is is going to more reliable than this type of conversion.

I'm going to have to disagree. Lots of stock cars and engines trying to make more than stock power, That are far worse than a 2j on some German software.

And having the engine doesn't make the swap "cheaper" to do. You could just sell the current engine. I never really understood the mindset of "I have it so I'm going to use it" as this often ends up costing (a lot) more in the end. Putting $5k into a swap because one "has the engine" doesn't make more sense than selling the engine for $2k and putting $5k towards a build that's cheaper to hit their power goal ($3k net cost). I see it all the time and just can't wrap my head around that logic.

. So he should sell his well maintained engine for the 1500 it's worth , save the 1500-2k in parts he needs, take his 3k / 3500 if he is lucky and buy what exactly? That's going to be turn key ready to go, over 600hp? Seems pretty unrealistic. Even making the power with a m52 will cost him more when I crunch the numbers trying to reach these power goals. Used gte pistons and rods are 200$. Where else can I find pistons and rods for 200$? M50 non vanos rods go for more. I'm not trying to play devils advocate. I just want to understand your math. ( Newer bmw Dme, plus newer bmw engine, plus the parts and software to make it work at higher than factory power , reliably. Somehow cheaper too? )




Will it all be upgraded as time and money allows? Most likely. This is a starting point for him. It's a positive on his job applications. It's just not in the cards to spend the next two years buying some newer, but still used and unknown engine platform, with more expensive parts. For no real reason other than weight.

Yes the e46 has subframe mounts reinforced already. Yes we could be bolt on boys , and put a e46 motor in the e46. If weight is a issue , my e36 could help to make up that difference.

We are taking about a 18 year old wanna be mechanic cutting his teeth in the performance world. I have all the tools, and abilities to fabricate what we need.

I don't have a spare stand alone. Perhaps I just want to do it, to say it can be done. I can't think of a engine to swap that is closer to the original m50tu design. (S50b30us) The cost of an off the shelf email tune , is the cost of a bare bones microsquirt. (Before I buy all the extra bits ) I will cross that bridge if needed when I get there.


I do not think this is the "best " option. I have used standalone in the past , I've helped lots of friends , build lots of different cars. From DSM to TDI , Ls , BMW, Saab, Honda turbo stuff, n54 stuff. Mk3 supra stuff. Putting it together will only cost me the time. Vvti control maps are not complicated. Multiple ways to go about that. (V.e. map, throttle position map, The factory engine , and the swap engine are very , very similar in their function. Ms43 is capable. It's well understood. It can control fully variable dual vanos. With aftermarket cam sensor options, I don't see the cam control as a issue. I don't think it will even have to be a "limited" control a.k.a. Similar to how single vanos is binary.


I think it's a hippy dream as far as this becoming common. It's possible , if it all just worked, that's not likely. (I fully understand)


I'm for sure going to try it. Mounts cost material. Exhaust cost materials , Worse case, I put in a m52b28 out of one of the e39's and a turbo in its place. Or even the aluminum m54 I already have , that has studs, and a spacer ,and a proven tune on a proven dme. ... If it was " use what I got" I would just start with one of these.

Unless I was breaking down thoes cars and engines you mentioned ( selling them as spare parts. ) I don't understand where you think any of those options would be cheaper. The basic maintenance and parts alone are drastically higher. (I'm repeating myself )

All my personal friends run similar, older technology port injected track cars. I think it has to do with cost, and availability, reliability and simplicity more than anything.

I would love to see a quick and dirty. price break down on any of those options mentioned. Including the basic maintenance required to get them into "track" condition. We must come from two different worlds?

[pbonsalb]

You are a very advanced DIYer, and with your labor and collection of parts, what you are planning makes sense if minimizing costs is the goal. Plus, a project with your young relative could be fun and he would see his engine being reused, albeit after a rebuild with salvaged turbo engine internals.

I have an E36 M3 with a turbocharged built motor running off a tuned stock ECU, but agree that is not the only or cheapest way to big power. I’d probably look at LSx swaps if I was doing this today, though that means standalone assuming I wanted fuel injection and I would.

[BimmerBreaker]

I think it's impossible to make a cost breakdown due to the "unknown" factor of what it takes or costs to run a 2JZ on an MS43. Can it be done, definitely yes, with enough work.
Can it be done for cheaper than a standalone ECU for the 2JZ?
Does the work to run it on an MS43 plus the parts to make 600hp cost less than making 600hp on a BMW engine?

It definitely seems like a cool project, it would be very cool to see you do it; I just don't see it as a *budget* project, and that mostly because it's just unknown what all would go into it. I guess you don't know until you try though.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

This sounds like an absolutely terrible idea all around - everything you will need to do here is custom, so if anything goes wrong/fails you will have to find/use/transfer these custom parts.

No offence but skipping on standalone engine management seems like an extremely odd choice considering all the other costs involved here to make this a success.

Saying buying an ECU is too much but swapping in a completely different make of motor into a chassis doesn't make any sense. If there is no budget for something like an ECU, why even bother only to end up with a possibly failed project that you've put money into that you will never recover and/or spend time and money on chasing issues as you attempt to make this work correctly. The ECU you would buy is at least universal so it can be used on anything else down the line without any worry.

[Sio2crew]

What custom parts? A modified trigger on the stock cam. (Stock cam is worth less than 50$.) The adaptors for the sensor clips? An adaptor for the throttle body? Modified crank trigger is off the shelf. No matter what car, he will use a BMW transmission. The adaptor is a necessary evil.

The biggest issues you see is custom parts?



I understand buying and installing a standalone , and the wiring to get it all installed, is the "accepted' way.

Fortunately I found someone to help me with the software side for free. Vvti control strategy appears to be the biggest hurdle once its all bolted together. How the two systems function, is well documented on stand alone forums. ( Ms43 Software help from someone who tunes late model BMW's for a living. Usually with the factory DME.)

Plan is to just install the stock GE sooner than later. non turbo. See what issues we have to jump over first.

This isn't a street car.Its not even a track car at this point.
It's a learning tool. I'm sure I will also learn plenty.

People already modify and bolt on different intakes, cams, turbos... All these things are wildly different than a stock m5x.

Im trying to run the same modified ms43 I already run ,with pmas maf, with custom vanos control. Running my engine SWAP already. Different displacement , different head, different intake , different cam control , different knock sensors, uses a throttle body adaptor, but it's ok cuz it's a BMW engine?

Why wouldn't I want factory traction control, factory abs, lack of complexity, all the reasons people stay with a factory DME.


I'm just glad it appears I have the help I need. This car will be stored and assembled inside a modern machine shop. Hardware isn't a issue ( the one modified cam? )

If I cave and use a Toyota harness. I will update this thread. If I go standalone , I will update this thread. If it works out, I will update this thread. It's going to be a many moons from now, no matter what happens.

[Sio2crew]

If it comes off like I'm trying to argue, I am not. Not even a little bit. Let me apologize if it comes off that way.

This project is a lot more interesting to me than assembling another bolt on recipie BMW. I have the highest respect for the people who frequent here. Altho I doubt anyone knows me anywhere but this forum. I do know who most of you are Especially If your day job has anything to do with BMW's. That's why I'm here, looking for anything easily overlooked.

I received close to the response I expected. Any "build" or "swap" could be considered the a waste of money, or the "wrong way". Plenty of people turned their nose up at my current daily. It's worth a lot less than what that cost me. This swap gives me problems to solve, it keeps my mind busy. It involves family, it involves the right kind of influence for people I care about.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I mean - if you have all the answers and ability why are you asking for opinions?

Your main reason was cost of the ECU - yet you're doing a motor swap. That right there makes no sense to me what so ever, but you do you.

Why wouldn't I want factory traction control, factory abs, lack of complexity, all the reasons people stay with a factory DME.

I mean factory TC sucks ass in old cars like the E46 so that's just not a plus. But you can have all that (everything working like factory) and then some with something like a PNP MaxxECU for instance. Everything works like factory and you get all the immense benefits from the ECU itself that the MS43 could never hope to have... to me there is ZERO reason to stay with a stock ECU unless you need A) to pass emissions in some fashion that requires OBD II or B) you have a simple setup with near factory parts.